travelgourmet

<i>How DO you feel about Saudi Arabia?</i>

I think it is an illiberal autocracy. I think it is a corrupt regime. I think that they lack basic freedoms that we in the West take for granted. I wouldn't want to live there.

That doesn't make it right for Switzerland to infringe upon the freedoms of Muslims. Limiting the rights of any class of people makes our own rights less secure, not more. If you allow the state to tell Muslim people how to worship, what is to stop them from telling Jews or Catholics how to worship? What is to stop them from telling atheists that they must worship?

kleeblatt

"If you allow the state to tell Muslim people how to worship, what is to stop them from telling Jews or Catholics how to worship? What is to stop them from telling atheists that they must worship?"

Careful, there. This is about building permits for minarets and not limiting synogogues, mosques, etc.

logos999

Sice I don't read TG answers anymore, everything works a lot better. I'd like to suggest a new feature other message boards have. You enter a list of names, whose posts you don't want to read. When you watch a thread all those posts are filtered.

travelgourmet

logos: I sure do feel awful about supporting freedom of religion. I guess we sure could learn a lot from you Germans. You took care of our Jewish Problem, why not let you take care of our Muslim Problem? You guys are the experts.

I recognize that you think there is a difference. That is why you are wrong.

travelgourmet

<i>This is about building permits for minarets and not limiting synogogues, mosques, etc.</i>

Schuler, do you actually believe this? I always thought you a bit smarter than that. Honestly, if it were strictly about zoning, then why limit it to minarets? Why not say that no religious buildings could be built above xxx meters high? Why not outlaw church bells? Why not demolish steeples? This is clearly a narrowly designed law meant to limit the freedom of Muslims to express their religion. It is not about zoning.

sylvia3

Why not encourage them to enter the millenium, and use their cell phones (we know they understand them) or other devices to express their religion and get the "call" to pray? Must they be minarets, in the mid-east architecture? On topic, do church bells still ring Matins, or other odd times of day and week, etc., as they used to, or are they just used on Sunday mornings, or special occasions? (Seriously, when I was a kid, the local RCC instituted a bell recording; the neighborhood was in open rebellion...)

sylvia3

And, why not say "sure, for each temple of another faith allowed in the world of Islam, we'll let you build a minaret"?

kleeblatt

Travelgourmet:

1. Thanks for the compliment. I really am trying to be opened minded about this.

"Honestly, if it were strictly about zoning, then why limit it to minarets?"

That's the problem with this upcoming vote. Everybody looks at it differently. There's an overabundance of emotion and fear involved by SOME of the locals that people are misconstruing the facts.

Have you ever built a house here in Switzerland? I have. There are so many restrictions that even the architects sometimes don't know what will be allowed and what won't. I know someone who built a house in Brunnen and was forced by the Gemeinde to install outside shutters. It was part of the "Dorfbild" even though many of the houses there don't have shutters.

In Lauerz, there's a development where all the houses were only allowed a certain color of roof.

My house had height and land usage restrictions. You just can't add another window while building, it has to first be given an OK by the government.

And yet, despite all of these restrictions, money, power, politics and connections often win over common sense.

You live near Zug, right? Did you know McDonald's have wanted to rent space in the Metalli for years but the shopping mall doesn't want that kind of clientele on its premises? There's now a Starbucks instead.

There are many other religions in Switzerland that have rented rooms or built low-key places of worship and can continue their religious services freely. That's why I think the "restricting their worship" arguement is out of place here.

I agree that the SVP is using this initiative to put Muslims in their place which saddens me.

Economic advisors are also publicly not supporting this initiative because they think it will harm the economy.

Christian spokespeople have also publicly stated that this initiative is ridiculous and they do not stand behind it.

However, people are turning away from traditional religions eg. Catholics and Protestants. These religions are playing a lesser and lesser role in the community.

I also agree to a point that the cantons and communities should continue to decide themselves if they think minerats fit into their "Dorfbild" or not.

I live in a very traditional town with green fields, cows bells, alphorn players, yodel clubs and traditional cow shows and chilbis. Most locals have family trees that go back to the 1500's, with most ancestors living in the town. We have a few muslims that are well-accepted and part of the community. No one minds if they rent a room or build an unobtrusive building to worship. However, the minerat could be interpreted as a sign of "power" and that would disturb the balance of this town.

A few minerats wouldn't be a problem in Switzerland. However, due to the influx of immigrants, it's a growing religion that does cause alarm bells to ring in some heads. Christianity is losing power in Europe and Islam is gaining power.

But wait, this is about minerats and building permits and not about religion and worship. And I've fallen myself into the trap the SVP has set.

Sigh. If only I could see the future....

Cholmondley_Warner

Oh dear. I didn't realise how racist switzerland was. I did suspect but to see it in print is a shock.

CW - off to find some swiss to punch.

j999_9

sylvia: >>And, why not say "sure, for each temple of another faith allowed in the world of Islam, we'll let you build a minaret"?<<

Who, exactly, is "you"? Is there some monolith the Swiss are dealing with? And do you think the best way to deal with intolerance is to be intolerant?

sylvia3

Sorry, I'm just weary of some of the world bending over backward to show tolerance for intolerant religions. IMO, they are all, each and every one, backward and not good for humans (or the planet). And the "monolith" to which you refer is in this case of course Islam. The Koran, Torah, and the Bible (New Testament) all preach one thing, their followers another. And Shinto, Buddism, Animism, throw them all up there on the wall; I have the same opinion of all of them.
Rise up, humans, and throw off your religious chains; you have nothing to gain but your brain.

j999_9

>>Sorry, I'm just weary of some of the world bending over backward to show tolerance for intolerant religions. IMO, they are all, each and every one, backward and not good for humans (or the planet).<<
That's a whole different agenda.

>>And the "monolith" to which you refer is in this case of course Islam.<<
My point exactly, It's not a monolith. If it were, they wouldn't be killing one another.

>>Rise up, humans, and throw off your religious chains; you have nothing to gain but your brain.<<
God save us (if you'll pardon the pun) from those who "know better." They're every bit as bad as religious fanatics.

kleeblatt

It's official. Minarets are now banned to build in Switzerland.

http://www.presseportal.ch/de/pm/100...591/swissinfo/

Passerine

"Most locals have family trees that go back to the 1500's, with most ancestors living in the town..."

Schuler, I know the Swiss are a hardy lot and we have good healthcare here, but I didn't realize village lifespans had surpassed 500 years ;-)

I wondered which way the vote would go. I also wondered if having the vote take place on the first Sunday in Advent had any impact on people's decisions.

I read an interesting article that provided some of the backstory for the issue...neither the local Muslim or Christian communities distinguished themselves. It seemed as if the hardliners on both sides painted themselves into corners and couldn't get out without losing face and this was the result (a common human failing certainly not limited to Switzerland).

Passerine

And here's the story in English
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials...15265000&ty=st

GypsyMaiden

The issue reminds me of my Western Civilization Class in 1997. Little by little a race/religion/empire takes over...whether the Jewish/Christian/Muslim or whatever civilization....its an interesting time we live in.

With regards to "muslim women are not given a choice about wearing the chador, burgua, abaya, nifir, jibab or hibab, those that refuse are beaten, threatend with death, arrested, caned, jailed or honor murdered by their own families" (from above)

After the attacks in NY on 9/11, I didn't know what to do for Halloween, and didn't feel like getting all dressed up. I wound up setting myself up in a burka (spelling?) I didn't goof off or act stupid or offend, I just showed up to the party like that. I found people offended that I dressed like that (like some are with a pregnant nun costume) and I found it to be very repressive. I could barely see out, I was covered, so my movement and actions was automatically limited. It was an interesting study.

Interesting times folks.

kenav

I think the vote outcome is pretty outrageous. I remember thinking a few years ago how many European countries felt free to chastise the U.S. on our internal problems, for ex. race. I thought to myself - well they don't have such a mixed population as we do. Wait till it starts happening in their country. And well, here it is!! Where is their tolerance? Why not a ban on church spires?

logos999

Hmm, the muslim race, wonder what that is? If wearing a headscarf makes me a different race, do different colours constitute different races.
From now on, I will wear a black headscarf and be part of the "logosrace", but wait doesn't that scarf make me part of the harley-davidson drivers race. I don't want that!

Anyway, well done Swizz people! But you should also ban church towers. I will also found the new religion of "Logosism". You have to pray 24/7 and give me your weeks earnings every friday. In return, you can praise me. We'll have our weekly meeting on top of the TV tower to show those other sects that we mean business!

WELL DONE SWITZERLAND!

kleeblatt

Logos: You do realize that this will go to a European Union Tribune Human Rights commission and that it might be overturned.

However, if the same vote had happened in Germany or Austria, I'm sure the outcome would be exactly the same as Switzerland's.

logos999

I'm sure it will be overturned. They call it "democracy" nevertheless. Yes, the Austrian or Bavarian vote would have the same result.