Minarets in Switzerland? upcoming national vote
Oct 12th, 2009, 03:04 AM
#1
Minarets in Switzerland? upcoming national vote
Should Switzerland allow minarets to be built in Switzerland? There's a huge debate going on right now because of an upcoming referandum.
There are good arguments on both sides of the issue.
Pro:
To demonstrate freedom of religion
To show we have no discrimination against muslims
Con:
It will change Switzerland's "Heidi-like" skyline
It will encourage Muslim communities like those in England and Germany, where many residents don't speak the local language and strict Muslim laws are enforced.
As tourists, would it bother you to see minarets dotted about the Swiss landscape?
Interested in your opinion....
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/front/Mi...44367000&ty=st
There are good arguments on both sides of the issue.
Pro:
To demonstrate freedom of religion
To show we have no discrimination against muslims
Con:
It will change Switzerland's "Heidi-like" skyline
It will encourage Muslim communities like those in England and Germany, where many residents don't speak the local language and strict Muslim laws are enforced.
As tourists, would it bother you to see minarets dotted about the Swiss landscape?
Interested in your opinion....
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/front/Mi...44367000&ty=st
Oct 12th, 2009, 03:19 AM
#2
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>>It will encourage Muslim communities like those in England and Germany, where many residents don't speak the local language and strict Muslim laws are enforced)<<
That doesn't necessarily follow. It could happen without minarets, or not happen with them.
The arguments in the UK, apart from not-so-disguised racism, tend to be about noise disturbance (as indeed there are often arguments about church bells). Off the top of my head, I don't think there are many mosques in the UK that have a loud-speakered call to prayer, or at least as compared with the number of Muslim community centres and prayer rooms.
Making an issue just about minarets in principle seems to off the point, somehow.
That doesn't necessarily follow. It could happen without minarets, or not happen with them.
The arguments in the UK, apart from not-so-disguised racism, tend to be about noise disturbance (as indeed there are often arguments about church bells). Off the top of my head, I don't think there are many mosques in the UK that have a loud-speakered call to prayer, or at least as compared with the number of Muslim community centres and prayer rooms.
Making an issue just about minarets in principle seems to off the point, somehow.
Oct 12th, 2009, 03:29 AM
#3
Hello Patrick,
Nice to hear from you! It is indeed a big issue in Switzerland because the Islam religion is so "foreign." There have been quite a few so-called documentaries about Islamic communities in other countries (Germany and England)and most have been portrayed as self-isolating and radical in their Islamic beliefs.
By the way, I was shocked to see all the women wearing burka-like garments in London. It kind of threw London back to the middle ages for me.
Of course, building a few minarets will not lead immediately to radical muslim communities but the idea is in the back of a many a Swiss' mind.
And many other Swiss just don't won't to have minarets in their home town. It doesn't fit in.
Nice to hear from you! It is indeed a big issue in Switzerland because the Islam religion is so "foreign." There have been quite a few so-called documentaries about Islamic communities in other countries (Germany and England)and most have been portrayed as self-isolating and radical in their Islamic beliefs.
By the way, I was shocked to see all the women wearing burka-like garments in London. It kind of threw London back to the middle ages for me.
Of course, building a few minarets will not lead immediately to radical muslim communities but the idea is in the back of a many a Swiss' mind.
And many other Swiss just don't won't to have minarets in their home town. It doesn't fit in.
Oct 12th, 2009, 03:35 AM
#4
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"It will encourage Muslim communities like those in England and Germany, where many residents don't speak the local language and strict Muslim laws are enforced"
Cobblers.
Unadulterated, racist, dickheaded poppycock.
It's simply untrue that "strict Muslim laws" are enforced in Britain. Are Italians and Poles (who, unlike the case in insular Switzerland, have total freedom to live and work in Britain) incapable of speaking English because Catholic churches can build bell towers and use them? Should we apply this non-logic to synagogues too, while we're at it?
As a tourist, it would bother me considerably if Swiss voters believed such twaddle. And, if they did, I'd certainly strike the dump off the list of countries I'd be prepared to spend my money in.
Cobblers.
Unadulterated, racist, dickheaded poppycock.
It's simply untrue that "strict Muslim laws" are enforced in Britain. Are Italians and Poles (who, unlike the case in insular Switzerland, have total freedom to live and work in Britain) incapable of speaking English because Catholic churches can build bell towers and use them? Should we apply this non-logic to synagogues too, while we're at it?
As a tourist, it would bother me considerably if Swiss voters believed such twaddle. And, if they did, I'd certainly strike the dump off the list of countries I'd be prepared to spend my money in.
Oct 12th, 2009, 03:43 AM
#5
Flanneruk: Interesting remarks.
So how do you explain all the burka-garmented women in England? Is that not female surpression?
By the way, Poles and Italians have total freedom to live and work in Switzerland as long as they have proof of employment.
So how do you explain all the burka-garmented women in England? Is that not female surpression?
By the way, Poles and Italians have total freedom to live and work in Switzerland as long as they have proof of employment.
Oct 12th, 2009, 03:43 AM
#6
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Schuler, they'll call you racist and worse now for posting this. Religious freedom is only for those religious people, but not the sane, that are free from religion.
I strongly oppose any minarets and can only pity those that feel the need to show how "superior" their "religion" is by adhering to certain "dress codes". Unfortunately, it's too late for banning churches and it'll be to late for banning minarets too.
"Le 21eme siècle sera spirituel, ou ne sera pas".
I strongly oppose any minarets and can only pity those that feel the need to show how "superior" their "religion" is by adhering to certain "dress codes". Unfortunately, it's too late for banning churches and it'll be to late for banning minarets too.
"Le 21eme siècle sera spirituel, ou ne sera pas".
Oct 12th, 2009, 03:50 AM
#7
Hi Logos, your comments don't surprise me. In this way, the Germans and the Swiss think a lot alike.
The American part of me wants me to allow minarets because FREEDOM of religion should be a priority in any country. The Swiss part of me doesn't want to have a minaret built in my local town. It will change the landscape too drastically. I also have some major doubts about Islamic religion and women surpression, however this might have more to do with the culture than the religion itself.
The American part of me wants me to allow minarets because FREEDOM of religion should be a priority in any country. The Swiss part of me doesn't want to have a minaret built in my local town. It will change the landscape too drastically. I also have some major doubts about Islamic religion and women surpression, however this might have more to do with the culture than the religion itself.
Oct 12th, 2009, 04:32 AM
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I'm with flanner. One can dress it up however they want, but it is what it is, and much of the anti-Minaret arguments are simply smokescreens for a broader anti-Islamic bias. I mean, do truly liberal people actually think that keeping a Disney-fied skyline really worth discriminating against the religious beliefs and traditions of an important part of the population?
As to the question about all the burqas in London, I would remember that London is an international city and a popular destination for wealthy Middle Eastern tourists. I see more burqas at places like Selfridges than anywhere else and suspect that a fair number of the burqas you are seeing are being worn by visitors and not locals.
But even if burqas are being worn by locals, I wouldn't feel comfortable regulating it. And how does Switzerland do that fairly? Head over to Wiedikon sometime and you will find ultra-Orthodox garb very readily. Do you force Orthodox Jews to cut their peyes or forgo the sheitel? If not, then how do you outlaw the burqa?
As to the question about all the burqas in London, I would remember that London is an international city and a popular destination for wealthy Middle Eastern tourists. I see more burqas at places like Selfridges than anywhere else and suspect that a fair number of the burqas you are seeing are being worn by visitors and not locals.
But even if burqas are being worn by locals, I wouldn't feel comfortable regulating it. And how does Switzerland do that fairly? Head over to Wiedikon sometime and you will find ultra-Orthodox garb very readily. Do you force Orthodox Jews to cut their peyes or forgo the sheitel? If not, then how do you outlaw the burqa?
Oct 12th, 2009, 04:40 AM
#9
Hi Travelgourmet,
That Disney-land skyline is a key factor to our tourism trade. And it's part of our Swiss pride.
I don't find Orthodox garments surpressive, but burqas are very much so.
That Disney-land skyline is a key factor to our tourism trade. And it's part of our Swiss pride.
I don't find Orthodox garments surpressive, but burqas are very much so.
Oct 12th, 2009, 04:43 AM
#10
I agree with Flanner and Travelgourmet. Personally I dislike women wearing Burqas and feel they are a sign of oppression, but if I ban them, am I not imposing my beliefs, and if so, how does that differ?
It does amaze me how many excuses there are to deny one religion its symbols and architecture that supposedly have nothing to do with bigotry.
It does amaze me how many excuses there are to deny one religion its symbols and architecture that supposedly have nothing to do with bigotry.
Oct 12th, 2009, 04:47 AM
#11
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It will encourage Muslim communities like those in England and Germany, where many residents don't speak the local language and strict Muslim laws are enforced>>>>
Firstly there are very few people here who can't speak English. I would guess America has many many more.
Secondly there is no way that "muslim laws are enforced". I'm not sure where this comes from but a lot of otherwise sane people seem to believe this.
As for Switzerland: It sounds like you need to haul yourselves out of the 16th Century. Minarets? Why on Earth not? What harm could they do?
Firstly there are very few people here who can't speak English. I would guess America has many many more.
Secondly there is no way that "muslim laws are enforced". I'm not sure where this comes from but a lot of otherwise sane people seem to believe this.
As for Switzerland: It sounds like you need to haul yourselves out of the 16th Century. Minarets? Why on Earth not? What harm could they do?
Oct 12th, 2009, 04:47 AM
#12
It will encourage Muslim communities like those in England and Germany, where many residents don't speak the local language and strict Muslim laws are enforced.
I guess we need to redefine "many" and "strict Muslim laws are enforced" is just nuts. What we do have in Britian is a view that if both parties want to operate under other laws in civil cases they can do. We introduced it to allow Jewish people to use their own courts.
Burkas, now you are talking. Are the Swiss going to rule on that? Still I see that there is some Italian mayor who only allows topless women on the beach if they are "bootiful", now there is something odd about that.
I guess we need to redefine "many" and "strict Muslim laws are enforced" is just nuts. What we do have in Britian is a view that if both parties want to operate under other laws in civil cases they can do. We introduced it to allow Jewish people to use their own courts.
Burkas, now you are talking. Are the Swiss going to rule on that? Still I see that there is some Italian mayor who only allows topless women on the beach if they are "bootiful", now there is something odd about that.
Oct 12th, 2009, 05:10 AM
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>>Is that not female surpression?<<
It might be. It might (just) be a matter of personal choice. But it's a matter of (variable) regional cultures in different parts of the world, predominantly Muslim it's true, but not inherent to Muslim faith or practice in general. You could just as easily refer to the mantilla, or the way it once seemed to be the rule that women over a certain age in Mediterranean countries wore black, or the custom my mother always used to quote satirically (but still felt she had to live by) "No lady ever goes out without hat and gloves".
And wearing burkas and headscarves isn't affected one bit by whether or not Muslims in any given place have a mosque (as opposed to a community centre or prayer room), nor whether there are minarets or not.
The issue of how integrated Muslims are is best dealt with by looking at how community organisations and their leaders actually work, how imams are recruited and how they work in relation to the wider non-Muslim community, and so on, not by opposing any visible expression of Muslim presence or status. If fathers are forcing wives and daughters into living a way they don't want to, there are laws to deal with the issue of force.
As you might guess from flanner's reply, we've seen similar campaigns in the UK based on flagrantly deceitful "othering" of Muslims, and framing the debate in the way it seems to be in Switzerland is going down the same route.
It might be. It might (just) be a matter of personal choice. But it's a matter of (variable) regional cultures in different parts of the world, predominantly Muslim it's true, but not inherent to Muslim faith or practice in general. You could just as easily refer to the mantilla, or the way it once seemed to be the rule that women over a certain age in Mediterranean countries wore black, or the custom my mother always used to quote satirically (but still felt she had to live by) "No lady ever goes out without hat and gloves".
And wearing burkas and headscarves isn't affected one bit by whether or not Muslims in any given place have a mosque (as opposed to a community centre or prayer room), nor whether there are minarets or not.
The issue of how integrated Muslims are is best dealt with by looking at how community organisations and their leaders actually work, how imams are recruited and how they work in relation to the wider non-Muslim community, and so on, not by opposing any visible expression of Muslim presence or status. If fathers are forcing wives and daughters into living a way they don't want to, there are laws to deal with the issue of force.
As you might guess from flanner's reply, we've seen similar campaigns in the UK based on flagrantly deceitful "othering" of Muslims, and framing the debate in the way it seems to be in Switzerland is going down the same route.
Oct 12th, 2009, 05:16 AM
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People should be able to roam the streets in their underwear or maybe naked, who cares. Those who want to be free from religion are discrimiated by all those bigot religious ...
If she car wear a burka in public, I demand to be allowed to walk around everywhere wearing nothing but white underpants, black socks and birkenstocks.
If she car wear a burka in public, I demand to be allowed to walk around everywhere wearing nothing but white underpants, black socks and birkenstocks.
Oct 12th, 2009, 05:16 AM
#15
Certainly one of the female muslim medics with whom I worked wore a headscarf . She is a UK born child of Pakistani parents, not particularly religious, but covered her head because "It was part of her tradition and identity".
Any legistlation aimed at burqas would presumably also remove her choice to wear what she wished.
Any legistlation aimed at burqas would presumably also remove her choice to wear what she wished.
Oct 12th, 2009, 05:19 AM
#17
Lots of thought-provoking comments.
Would it be more correct to say that there are Moroccan Islamic communities, Pakastan Islamic communities, Iraqi Islami communities in England that are more affected by its culture than by its religion?
As for burkas and Berlusconi, both are shameful to the female population.
Would it be more correct to say that there are Moroccan Islamic communities, Pakastan Islamic communities, Iraqi Islami communities in England that are more affected by its culture than by its religion?
As for burkas and Berlusconi, both are shameful to the female population.
Oct 12th, 2009, 05:41 AM
#18
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willt, as I wrote, people are entiltled to wear anything they like on their body, even freaky religious outfits. I do feel as sorry for those burkas as for nuns and priests. People get brainwashed into their reigion at a very young age. The problem is that burkas and nun outfits are tolerated, while other freak outfits are not and that's highly discriminating.
Oct 12th, 2009, 05:48 AM
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The wording of your question shows which side of the argument you stand on and reinforces some rather unsavoury Swiss stereotypes.
The mentioning of "demonstrat[ing] freedom of religion" and "show[ing]...no discrimination against muslims" sums up a particularly Swiss attitude. Be seen (and make sure everyone sees you) doing one thing, whilst a very different (and often opposite) reality is what actually happens behind closed doors.
As others have so eloquently picked apart your rather blinkered (to say the least) views on muslim populations elsewhere, I'll give you my opinion from a strictly touristic perspective.
The addition of minarets would make absolutely no difference to my plans to return to Switzerland, just as the number of synagogues in New York has no bearing on wether or not I plan to travel there. I have spent some of the dullest times of my life in Switzerland (Geneva to be exact) and this was spent in the now sadly defunct Rhino squat with a bunch of art students, so it gives you some idea of just how dull I found it.
The number (or visible signs) of places of religious worship have absolutely no influence on where I travel and in fact I'd probably avoid any places that make a virtue out of their presence.
I think as well as changing the "Heidi-like" skyline (which I don't feel is actually that common), the minarets could start a change in the "Heidi-like" (small-village-mountain-folk) Swiss mindset, which would only be a good thing.
The mentioning of "demonstrat[ing] freedom of religion" and "show[ing]...no discrimination against muslims" sums up a particularly Swiss attitude. Be seen (and make sure everyone sees you) doing one thing, whilst a very different (and often opposite) reality is what actually happens behind closed doors.
As others have so eloquently picked apart your rather blinkered (to say the least) views on muslim populations elsewhere, I'll give you my opinion from a strictly touristic perspective.
The addition of minarets would make absolutely no difference to my plans to return to Switzerland, just as the number of synagogues in New York has no bearing on wether or not I plan to travel there. I have spent some of the dullest times of my life in Switzerland (Geneva to be exact) and this was spent in the now sadly defunct Rhino squat with a bunch of art students, so it gives you some idea of just how dull I found it.
The number (or visible signs) of places of religious worship have absolutely no influence on where I travel and in fact I'd probably avoid any places that make a virtue out of their presence.
I think as well as changing the "Heidi-like" skyline (which I don't feel is actually that common), the minarets could start a change in the "Heidi-like" (small-village-mountain-folk) Swiss mindset, which would only be a good thing.
Oct 12th, 2009, 05:57 AM
#20
Jay-G: Thank you for your comments. I'm a bit disappointed at your accusations towards me but I've come to learn that those who think they are open-minded are often the most closed-minded.
