flylow

Schuler's original question was, "As tourists, would it bother you to see minarets dotted about the Swiss landscape?"

The fair Pamela and I transit and/or visit CH every year. Regarding the question above, we both agree that minarets would do little if anything to spoil the look of Heidi's country. I think Swiss Muslims have better things to do with their money. IMHO, this (board chatter) is a tempest in a teapot.

Can't all just get along
flylow

Jay_G

Hi schuler, you're welcome.

How you've construed my post as being an accusation, I'm not entirely sure. I based my response on your post, the wording contained within it and personal experience.

It may be a question of semantics, but as my post states, I'm only going on what you put up there. It may be incorrect, as you're now saying it is, but if you make a post with inflammatory phrases in it and pose questions in such a weighted way, you shouldn't be surprised when people take issue with it.

Your last statement "I've come to learn that those who think they are open-minded are often the most closed-minded" is most odd and makes me wonder if you think you are open-minded. Here's a quote which might help;

"The Swiss part of me doesn't want to have a minaret built in my local town. It will change the landscape too drastically. I also have some major doubts about Islamic religion and women surpression."

logos999

It is in light of the Sarrazin-Discussion, which is taboo (in Germany at least). Unfortunately a few newspapers did an online poll that showed about 80% agreed with the statement. Those polls were taken offline quickly. Later another (so called) representative poll showed a majority still aggreed with the statement. Since then, it it not furter discussed.
A can of worms, with lots of people shouting "racist".

It will end up in violence anyway.

brennynp

Logos, what is the Sarazin Discussion and why is it taboo in Germany?

willit

Would this be the senator who made comments about "Low Classes" being unproductive and having too many children? I think he may have specifically mentioned Arabs and Turks.

flanneruk

"Poles and Italians have total freedom to live and work in Switzerland as long as they have proof of employment."

...is untrue. Unless the Bundesamt für Migration is lying.

Switzerland, although it's joined Schengen, treats Poles as second class citizens, who may work only after complicated proceedings involving sponsorship, racist quotas and certificates no Swiss wants the job (http://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home/...gestellte.html)

These rules DON'T apply to Britons or Dutchpeople

Civilised Europe, of course - especially those countries that steer clear of the xenophobic Schengen scam - gives Poles the same rights as they give the Germans or Swedes.

Which might be why it's unthinkable in, for example, Oxford (whose skyline matters to the population as least as much as it does in Switzerland) to suggest the shameful ban on religious buildings the Swiss are contemplating.

John Calvin - overwhelmingly the most intolerant of the Protestant Reformers, though Heaven knows he faced intense competition for the title - must be cheering from wherever the good Lord consigned his spiteful soul.

kleeblatt

JayG: I also said:

"The American part of me wants me to allow minarets because FREEDOM of religion should be a priority in any country."

Jay_G

Indeed you did schuler, and to quote you again:

"I've come to learn that those who think they are open-minded are often the most closed-minded"

Ingo

I am surprised at how low people from other countries think of Switzerland and its people. I suggest they mind their own business, especially considering the impact that their foreign politics in the past decade had on the world.

PatrickLondon

>>Would it be more correct to say that there are Moroccan Islamic communities, Pakastan Islamic communities, Iraqi Islami communities in England that are more affected by its culture than by its religion?<<

Not that I'm a great expert, but my perception is yes, there's an awful lot of differences between, say, Bangladeshis, Saudis, Moroccans and Somalis. Some have incredibly strong and old-fashioned ideas about "family honour" for which others will say there is no specifically Islamic warrant.

travelgourmet

<i>I am surprised at how low people from other countries think of Switzerland and its people.</i>

I don't think that is true. People here are mostly reacting to proposals to ban minarets and infringe upon Muslims' freedom of religion.

<i>I suggest they mind their own business, especially considering the impact that their foreign politics in the past decade had on the world.</i>

While I recognize that the Swiss hold their (lack of) foreign policy to be some sort of righteous cause, there is nothing righteous about living under the protection of western, democratic ideals and then pretending that you have no skin in the game when push comes to shove. Foreign policy is a messy, messy business and you don't get to throw stones simply because you leave it up to somebody else to protect your interests.

DAX

Whatever happened to "When in Rome do as the Romans do"?
I think it's important to respect the local custom and norm otherwise we have the freedom to return to our own homelands or choose another place to live.

DAX

I just ran a search for "church in Saudi Arabia" and lo & behold it's not allowed! There's zilch as in zero despite the presence of 800.000 catholics (all foreign workers) in Saudi Arabia. However the more progressive kingdom of Qatar just built one last year according to this TIME article.
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...723715,00.html

Jay_G

Dax - and therein lies the problem. At this moment in time, Switzerland (supposedly a progressive, modern nation) has a similar policy regarding mosques, meaning they're on an equal footing with one of the most oppressive regimes in the world.

Travelgourmet sums up the issue perfectly.

lauralamb

I thought that mosques in Europe generally came without minarets, plus I didn't think they have the call to prayer ringing out over the rooftops.

Jay_G

You're correct lauralamb. But the iconography of minarets is something that certain Swiss political parties can use as a scaremongering tactic.

Here's a link as an example;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8297826.stm

Doesn't really make you think of Heidi does it?

logos999

>equal footing with one of the most oppressive regimes in the world.
Institutionalized torture, death penalty, no habeas corpus.
No, Saudi Arabia does remind me of another country, not Switzerland.

Jay_G

Perhaps I overstated it somewhat, but as Dax pointed out, the Swiss policy on mosques is currently the same as Saudi Arabia's regarding churches.

I think it was Euripides who said you can judge a man by the company he keeps.

travelgourmet

<i>I think it's important to respect the local custom and norm otherwise we have the freedom to return to our own homelands or choose another place to live.</i>

I think that is a fair enough opinion for a private citizen, but is it good public policy? Aside from any notion that diversity is a good thing in and of itself, the issue is that Switzerland (indeed, most of Western Europe) needs immigration. If you need the immigration, then it doesn't make sense to put up stupid barriers to specific cultures. You can try to keep your country as a museum or you can adapt to change. I think it is more fruitful for countries to embrace change, rather than pretending they can fight it.

What concerns me, though, is that Switzerland has a too-fragmented electoral system that enables the openly racist SVP to command too much of the debate on these topics. And the SVP has managed to completely poison the atmosphere around any discussion of immigration. It is a breeding ground for poor decisions and once these sort of things take hold, it is very tough to reverse course.

PatrickLondon

Saudi Arabia's policy on churches is irrelevant to either side of the argument. Saudi Arabia doesn't represent all Muslims, and we judge ourselves by our own standards.