Minarets in Switzerland? upcoming national vote
Oct 13th, 2009, 02:56 AM
#41
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Whilst it might be irrelevant to the decision that the Swiss need to make, I think it serves a good purpose by putting the question in a worldwide context.
Whilst no-one stated that Saudi Arabia represents all muslims, other nation's policies regarding worship, immigration and construction have been mentioned numerous times throughout the thread.
The original post even included a hackneyed view of "muslim communities in England Germany". Are these comparisons not relevant either?
We certainly do judge ourselves by our own standards, hence the creation of many international bodies (whatever your opinions on those) to intervene or give humanitarian aid to countries where they fall short of perceived standards.
Switzerland doesn't exist in a vacuum, despite the fact it might want to.
Whilst no-one stated that Saudi Arabia represents all muslims, other nation's policies regarding worship, immigration and construction have been mentioned numerous times throughout the thread.
The original post even included a hackneyed view of "muslim communities in England Germany". Are these comparisons not relevant either?
We certainly do judge ourselves by our own standards, hence the creation of many international bodies (whatever your opinions on those) to intervene or give humanitarian aid to countries where they fall short of perceived standards.
Switzerland doesn't exist in a vacuum, despite the fact it might want to.
Oct 13th, 2009, 03:56 AM
#42
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As if the right of muslims would be at risk in Switzerland or anywhere else in the west. The right of those who want to be free from religious interference into their lifes are at risk.
One of the duties of the state is to defend those rights of the "silent" majority. Not allowing minarets is one of them unless everyboy has the right to build any high rising structure he likes on his property. Those muslims that want minarets want to have special rights, they do not have. A nice house for prayer would do too and that does not interfere with my freedoms. So go to vote and vote "No"
One of the duties of the state is to defend those rights of the "silent" majority. Not allowing minarets is one of them unless everyboy has the right to build any high rising structure he likes on his property. Those muslims that want minarets want to have special rights, they do not have. A nice house for prayer would do too and that does not interfere with my freedoms. So go to vote and vote "No"
Oct 13th, 2009, 04:12 AM
#43
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Would it be more correct to say that there are Moroccan Islamic communities, Pakastan Islamic communities, Iraqi Islami communities in England that are more affected by its culture than by its religion? >>>
You're on the right lines but your geography is wonky.
Because of our history we have a lot of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and Bengalis where wearing the various varients on the Burkha/Nijab is common.
A lot of these people feel, for various reasons, de-racinated and as such tend to cling rather more tightly to their ethnic identity.
Go to the Edgeware Road which is a middle eastern area and you will see muslim birds who look like they're about to start pole dancing.
Culture not religion innit.
BTW we have minarets all over. No one minds. They don't do that call to prayer thing though. That would annoy us a bit (because it's loud).
You're on the right lines but your geography is wonky.
Because of our history we have a lot of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and Bengalis where wearing the various varients on the Burkha/Nijab is common.
A lot of these people feel, for various reasons, de-racinated and as such tend to cling rather more tightly to their ethnic identity.
Go to the Edgeware Road which is a middle eastern area and you will see muslim birds who look like they're about to start pole dancing.
Culture not religion innit.
BTW we have minarets all over. No one minds. They don't do that call to prayer thing though. That would annoy us a bit (because it's loud).
Oct 13th, 2009, 04:14 AM
#44
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If she car wear a burka in public, I demand to be allowed to walk around everywhere wearing nothing but white underpants, black socks and birkenstocks.>>>>
In Britain you can.
Being naked in public is not a crime here. (Don't ask me how I know this).
In Britain you can.
Being naked in public is not a crime here. (Don't ask me how I know this).
Oct 13th, 2009, 04:22 AM
#45
According to the BBC link posted above, Switzerland "has hundreds of mosques, but only a handful of them have minarets." This means that even if Saudi Arabia has no churches, it is not an analogous situation.
I do not know enough about the muslim religion to know the significance of the minaret as part of a mosque, but it seems that the debate should take this into account.
I do not know enough about the muslim religion to know the significance of the minaret as part of a mosque, but it seems that the debate should take this into account.
Oct 13th, 2009, 04:31 AM
#46
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the significance of the minaret as part of a mosque>>>
No more or less important than a spire. Plenty don't have it. It's just a symbol.
In muslim countries it's used to broadcast the call to prayer:
Jeddah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ2AEvFqOVU
Over here they don't do this.
No more or less important than a spire. Plenty don't have it. It's just a symbol.
In muslim countries it's used to broadcast the call to prayer:
Jeddah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ2AEvFqOVU
Over here they don't do this.
Oct 13th, 2009, 04:38 AM
#47
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>>Over here they don't do this.<<
Mostly not, but I've certainly heard it at the big mosque in Whitechapel.
>>One of the duties of the state is to defend those rights of the "silent" majority. Not allowing minarets is one of them unless everyboy has the right to build any high rising structure he likes on his property.<<
But is that not a matter to be decided case by case, rather than as a general statement - or a general statement that no building over x metres high is permitted, rather than no minarets?
>>Those muslims that want minarets want to have special rights, they do not have<<
In the absence of any <i>general</i> policy on high buildings, it looks more like the majority imposing special conditions on a minority that it doesn't impose on itself - for reasons one can only speculate on.
Mostly not, but I've certainly heard it at the big mosque in Whitechapel.
>>One of the duties of the state is to defend those rights of the "silent" majority. Not allowing minarets is one of them unless everyboy has the right to build any high rising structure he likes on his property.<<
But is that not a matter to be decided case by case, rather than as a general statement - or a general statement that no building over x metres high is permitted, rather than no minarets?
>>Those muslims that want minarets want to have special rights, they do not have<<
In the absence of any <i>general</i> policy on high buildings, it looks more like the majority imposing special conditions on a minority that it doesn't impose on itself - for reasons one can only speculate on.
Oct 13th, 2009, 04:58 AM
#48
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Hi Schuler,
I sympathize with you. It is difficult to balance principles.
As far as minarets ruining the skyline, I offer this picture
http://tinyurl.com/yfjczzl
A minaret won't be any worse. It will be different.
It is not unlike fighting about whether seeing a wind farm is better than seeing an oil well.
Somehow, I don't picture CH being dotted with minarets in our lifetimes.
I sympathize with you. It is difficult to balance principles.
As far as minarets ruining the skyline, I offer this picture
http://tinyurl.com/yfjczzl
A minaret won't be any worse. It will be different.
It is not unlike fighting about whether seeing a wind farm is better than seeing an oil well.
Somehow, I don't picture CH being dotted with minarets in our lifetimes.
Oct 13th, 2009, 06:58 AM
#49
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"Switzerland (supposedly a progressive, modern nation)"
I suppose I view Switzerland as a small mountainous country with strong traditional values and cowbells. It has a unique local referendum political system giving its traditional people a little bit more voice/say in their fate. They refused to join the EU because they don't want to be dictated by other major nations. They have become more progressive when women were finally allowed to vote in 1975.
I suppose I view Switzerland as a small mountainous country with strong traditional values and cowbells. It has a unique local referendum political system giving its traditional people a little bit more voice/say in their fate. They refused to join the EU because they don't want to be dictated by other major nations. They have become more progressive when women were finally allowed to vote in 1975.
Oct 13th, 2009, 09:15 AM
#51
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I wouldn't have a problem with seeing a minaret or two in my city, or in Berlin or London, but somehow it would bother me to see one in some places in Switzerland, depending on the city. In Appenzell, for instance. In Stein-am-Rhein.
Oct 13th, 2009, 11:49 AM
#52
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>....it would bother me to see one in some places in Switzerland,......<
Well, there is a very prominent mosque on a very prominent hill in Jerusalem.
The Santa Sofia was a Christian church before it became a mosque.
The world did not come to an end.
Well, there is a very prominent mosque on a very prominent hill in Jerusalem.
The Santa Sofia was a Christian church before it became a mosque.
The world did not come to an end.
Oct 13th, 2009, 12:01 PM
#53
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A random quote from Swissinfo:
The centre-right Christian Democratic Party with its traditional Catholic background has called the idea of banning minarets unconstitutional, dangerous and stupid. The country's association of Protestant churches has rejected it as divisive.
Marcel StÃssi, a researcher at Lucerne University says any ban would be incompatible with articles of international law to which Switzerland is a signatory. In the event that Swiss voters were to ban minarets, any of the 107 other signatories to the Vienna Convention of the Law of Treaties of 1969 could launch action against Switzerland.--from Brussels Journal
SVP counters:
This would not be a violation of the First Amendment, since Islam is not a religion as ordinarily understood. Islam is a tyrannical religio-political system aimed at the destruction of every non-Islamic government including our own.
Wow!
The centre-right Christian Democratic Party with its traditional Catholic background has called the idea of banning minarets unconstitutional, dangerous and stupid. The country's association of Protestant churches has rejected it as divisive.
Marcel StÃssi, a researcher at Lucerne University says any ban would be incompatible with articles of international law to which Switzerland is a signatory. In the event that Swiss voters were to ban minarets, any of the 107 other signatories to the Vienna Convention of the Law of Treaties of 1969 could launch action against Switzerland.--from Brussels Journal
SVP counters:
This would not be a violation of the First Amendment, since Islam is not a religion as ordinarily understood. Islam is a tyrannical religio-political system aimed at the destruction of every non-Islamic government including our own.
Wow!
Oct 13th, 2009, 12:27 PM
#54
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>>SVP counters:
This would not be a violation of the First Amendment, since Islam is not a religion as ordinarily understood. Islam is a tyrannical religio-political system aimed at the destruction of every non-Islamic government including our own.<<
Doesn't sound as though they're particularly concerned about the scenic views, then....
This would not be a violation of the First Amendment, since Islam is not a religion as ordinarily understood. Islam is a tyrannical religio-political system aimed at the destruction of every non-Islamic government including our own.<<
Doesn't sound as though they're particularly concerned about the scenic views, then....
Oct 13th, 2009, 02:20 PM
#56
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Schular, how do you know if minarets will be built?
There are plenty of Muslims in Philly and I can't ever remember seeing a minaret anywhere. Most Muslims here in Center City pray in mosques that were former stores and apartment buildings. I know of a mosque that is in a former school building.
Thin
There are plenty of Muslims in Philly and I can't ever remember seeing a minaret anywhere. Most Muslims here in Center City pray in mosques that were former stores and apartment buildings. I know of a mosque that is in a former school building.
Thin
Oct 13th, 2009, 06:04 PM
#57
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Thin, they will build more minarets if the ban is unsuccessful, that's the urgency of the whole issue.
Here's the swiss info quote on minaret facts:
In Switzerland, only the mosques in Geneva, Zurich and Wangen near Olten have a minaret, Winterthur's mosque only has a small one. But the call to prayer is not made from these minarets.
Building applications for minarets in at least two other towns, Langenthal and Wil, led to heated debates at the local level.
Here's the swiss info quote on minaret facts:
In Switzerland, only the mosques in Geneva, Zurich and Wangen near Olten have a minaret, Winterthur's mosque only has a small one. But the call to prayer is not made from these minarets.
Building applications for minarets in at least two other towns, Langenthal and Wil, led to heated debates at the local level.
Oct 13th, 2009, 11:48 PM
#58
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<i>Doesn't sound as though they're particularly concerned about the scenic views, then....</i>
The SVP isn't concerned about scenic views. They are a reactionary, racist, and sexist party that is an embarrassment to Switzerland. They are basically facists in business suits.
Judging from their % of the popular vote, we know that just over 20% of Swiss voters are pretty much brain-dead.
The SVP isn't concerned about scenic views. They are a reactionary, racist, and sexist party that is an embarrassment to Switzerland. They are basically facists in business suits.
Judging from their % of the popular vote, we know that just over 20% of Swiss voters are pretty much brain-dead.
Oct 14th, 2009, 12:05 AM
#59
I had a stimulating conversation with some Swiss last night about this topic.
The oldest in the group mentioned that this whole issue is very similar to the problem Protestants had when they wanted to build a church in a Catholic canton and vice versa. Very insightful.
Most agreed that minarets itself are not the problem. Switzerland is a Catholic or Protestant country and they don't want Islam to become the third national religion.
However, building minarets will not change the fact that we have a large population of muslims that are here to stay. Mosques are allowed so there is an official place to worship. And as the Christian faith decreases in followers, the muslim faith may not, which also scares many Swiss.
Personally, I wish there was a spokesperson for the Islamic religion that would publicly declare all the positive things the muslims do and show public distain for the negative things.
The oldest in the group mentioned that this whole issue is very similar to the problem Protestants had when they wanted to build a church in a Catholic canton and vice versa. Very insightful.
Most agreed that minarets itself are not the problem. Switzerland is a Catholic or Protestant country and they don't want Islam to become the third national religion.
However, building minarets will not change the fact that we have a large population of muslims that are here to stay. Mosques are allowed so there is an official place to worship. And as the Christian faith decreases in followers, the muslim faith may not, which also scares many Swiss.
Personally, I wish there was a spokesperson for the Islamic religion that would publicly declare all the positive things the muslims do and show public distain for the negative things.
Oct 14th, 2009, 12:25 AM
#60
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In the U.K. at least there are plenty of muslim spokespeople who get airtime in mainstream channels and regularly denounce the acts and speeches of extremist Islamists.
It would be impossible to have a single spokesperson for Islam, much like having a single spokesperson for Christianity. The Archbishop of Canterbury's thoughts and beliefs differ somewhat from the odious Fred Phelps', yet they both state that they are Christians.
It would be impossible to have a single spokesperson for Islam, much like having a single spokesperson for Christianity. The Archbishop of Canterbury's thoughts and beliefs differ somewhat from the odious Fred Phelps', yet they both state that they are Christians.
