Minarets in Switzerland? upcoming national vote
Oct 30th, 2009, 03:26 PM
#181
This is interesting...I love, love, love Switzerland and I lived in the Middle East for eight years. As a tourist, I guess the minarets wouldn't bother me so much, but the calls to prayer, well, that would ruin the whole Swiss ambiance for me. I much prefer the clanging of church bells.
Oct 30th, 2009, 03:30 PM
#182
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Re: burkas and niqob- I don't like them. I don't like the philosophy behind them and I don't the laws that force women to wear them. Personally speaking they kind of freak me out. But I don't think they should be banned in our part of the world and I don't think the women who wear them should be marginalized.
First off, democracies don't dictate how people dress.
Second, it would be very difficult for women who have been raised in a conservative Islamic society and have worn a burka their entire adult life, to suddenly be forced to abandon it. I imagine it would feel like walking around naked outside. And that would probably discourage these women from going out and interacting in society.
Third, if they were banned, then the women who are compelled to wear them might not be permitted to go outside at all. That would only serve to isolate them further.
Burkas are really only an issue among first generation immigrants anyways. It's a practice that just dies a natural death.
Re: headscarves on the sports field- I think we should choose our battles carefully. This was an issue here recently- I think girls are now allowed to wear a headscarf that is especially made for sports. Since it is safe, why not allow it? Better these girls are out there participating in activities with their peers than get cut off from doing such things altogether.
First off, democracies don't dictate how people dress.
Second, it would be very difficult for women who have been raised in a conservative Islamic society and have worn a burka their entire adult life, to suddenly be forced to abandon it. I imagine it would feel like walking around naked outside. And that would probably discourage these women from going out and interacting in society.
Third, if they were banned, then the women who are compelled to wear them might not be permitted to go outside at all. That would only serve to isolate them further.
Burkas are really only an issue among first generation immigrants anyways. It's a practice that just dies a natural death.
Re: headscarves on the sports field- I think we should choose our battles carefully. This was an issue here recently- I think girls are now allowed to wear a headscarf that is especially made for sports. Since it is safe, why not allow it? Better these girls are out there participating in activities with their peers than get cut off from doing such things altogether.
Oct 30th, 2009, 03:39 PM
#183
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Oh, and gay rights- Canada is light years ahead of the rest of the planet in this regard. Somehow we manage it despite our "capitulating" to our Muslim population (as if there aren't any openly gay Muslims but whatever).
Oct 30th, 2009, 03:50 PM
#184
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>why not allow it?
Because freaky religions have indoctrinted and abused them, since they were babies. The sooner they realize they have to fight, the better it is not only for society, but first of all for themselves.
Because freaky religions have indoctrinted and abused them, since they were babies. The sooner they realize they have to fight, the better it is not only for society, but first of all for themselves.
Oct 30th, 2009, 04:11 PM
#185
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Help me understand. One on hand, people are complaining about Muslim immigrants not integrating into western society.
At the same time, we want to forbid them from participating in society- in particular, forbid the <b>women and girls</b> from participating in society, if they cover their hair or their bodies in a way that we don't like.
Will those girls integrate better if their parents don't allow them to play sports because they can't cover their head? Wonderful, let's put young girls between a rock and a hard place. How very feminist of us.
At the same time, we want to forbid them from participating in society- in particular, forbid the <b>women and girls</b> from participating in society, if they cover their hair or their bodies in a way that we don't like.
Will those girls integrate better if their parents don't allow them to play sports because they can't cover their head? Wonderful, let's put young girls between a rock and a hard place. How very feminist of us.
Oct 30th, 2009, 04:25 PM
#186
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Free your mind, RELIGION is the problem. Europe isn't religious anymore. Their parents are part of the problem by forcing them into believing whatever. As if the "age of engightenment" can be undone. They will have to adapt, it will be hard like it is with any addict to overthrow what has been learned.
Freedom! I do have turkish friends that are free. After years of indoctrination, they suddenly relalize the truth. It's not much different with christians. ;-)
Freedom! I do have turkish friends that are free. After years of indoctrination, they suddenly relalize the truth. It's not much different with christians. ;-)
Oct 31st, 2009, 03:34 AM
#190
"Hey schuler, when is this bally vote?"
November 29
I walked through the Zug train station yesterday and saw the notorious SVP poster hung up in all its ugly glory:
http://www.bluewin.ch/de/index.php/2...e/news/inland/
I find a debate on the minaret referandum can be enlightening. However, it's posters like the above that make me hang my head in shame for this country.
By the way, the SVP (Swiss People's Party) is our right-wing political party. They don't want Switzerland to change in any way from its traditional values.
Personally, I think if the SVP can hang up such racist posters, than Muslims can build their minarets too. Gratefully, some cantons do not allow these SVP posters. Unfortunately, the very traditional cantons do.
November 29
I walked through the Zug train station yesterday and saw the notorious SVP poster hung up in all its ugly glory:
http://www.bluewin.ch/de/index.php/2...e/news/inland/
I find a debate on the minaret referandum can be enlightening. However, it's posters like the above that make me hang my head in shame for this country.
By the way, the SVP (Swiss People's Party) is our right-wing political party. They don't want Switzerland to change in any way from its traditional values.
Personally, I think if the SVP can hang up such racist posters, than Muslims can build their minarets too. Gratefully, some cantons do not allow these SVP posters. Unfortunately, the very traditional cantons do.
Oct 31st, 2009, 04:25 AM
#192
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<i>Europe isn't religious anymore.</i>
Then why do many European governments have church taxes (including Switzerland)? Why does Switzerland ask what religion you are when you apply for residency? Why does the British head of state have to be Anglican?
Europeans aren't religious, that is true, but it is only because most individuals don't want to put in the effort to actually have faith in something. European countries are not, however, secular. Big difference. Europeans use secularism as an excuse to attack Muslims, they don't attack Muslims because they are secular.
Then again, this isn't anything new for Europeans, is it? There is a long and exceedingly ugly history (much of it very recent) to suggest that they have never been comfortable with non-Christian religions, and an equally long and ugly history of how they use the state and the tyranny of the majority to institutionalize this pro-Christian bias. The debate is now ostensibly about culture, rather than religion, but that is only because most bigots are cowards and unwilling to admit the true nature of their fears and biases. Frankly, I think it is sickening the lengths that European political parties (and some citizens, apparently) go to, to excuse their intolerance and bigotry.
<i>By the way, the SVP (Swiss People's Party) is our right-wing political party. They don't want Switzerland to change in any way from its traditional values.</i>
This is true. They also support boring, conformist art and have done much to discourage women from entering the workforce. But we should also note that they are the most popular party in Switzerland. They don't have a majority, but they do have a plurality.
My personal favorite poster they had was the one of the map of Switzerland with (black) crows picking at it. I believe it said something like "Foreigners Out".
<i>I much prefer the clanging of church bells.</i>
I don't. I prefer neither when I am trying to sleep. When I'm not sleeping, either one is fine with me.
<i>Better these girls are out there participating in activities with their peers than get cut off from doing such things altogether.</i>
Exactly. All of these attempts to marginalize these religions and these people serves only to ghettoize them. Why not engage these people on a level playing field of respect and tolerance? It will probably work far better. It certainly is more ethical and more in keeping with supposed liberal values.
Then why do many European governments have church taxes (including Switzerland)? Why does Switzerland ask what religion you are when you apply for residency? Why does the British head of state have to be Anglican?
Europeans aren't religious, that is true, but it is only because most individuals don't want to put in the effort to actually have faith in something. European countries are not, however, secular. Big difference. Europeans use secularism as an excuse to attack Muslims, they don't attack Muslims because they are secular.
Then again, this isn't anything new for Europeans, is it? There is a long and exceedingly ugly history (much of it very recent) to suggest that they have never been comfortable with non-Christian religions, and an equally long and ugly history of how they use the state and the tyranny of the majority to institutionalize this pro-Christian bias. The debate is now ostensibly about culture, rather than religion, but that is only because most bigots are cowards and unwilling to admit the true nature of their fears and biases. Frankly, I think it is sickening the lengths that European political parties (and some citizens, apparently) go to, to excuse their intolerance and bigotry.
<i>By the way, the SVP (Swiss People's Party) is our right-wing political party. They don't want Switzerland to change in any way from its traditional values.</i>
This is true. They also support boring, conformist art and have done much to discourage women from entering the workforce. But we should also note that they are the most popular party in Switzerland. They don't have a majority, but they do have a plurality.
My personal favorite poster they had was the one of the map of Switzerland with (black) crows picking at it. I believe it said something like "Foreigners Out".
<i>I much prefer the clanging of church bells.</i>
I don't. I prefer neither when I am trying to sleep. When I'm not sleeping, either one is fine with me.
<i>Better these girls are out there participating in activities with their peers than get cut off from doing such things altogether.</i>
Exactly. All of these attempts to marginalize these religions and these people serves only to ghettoize them. Why not engage these people on a level playing field of respect and tolerance? It will probably work far better. It certainly is more ethical and more in keeping with supposed liberal values.
Oct 31st, 2009, 05:04 AM
#195
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And for me the swiss invented Toblerone and have done sod all else. Other than be fascists. And them horn things. I wouldn't want them in my country with their strange ways.
CW - racist towards racists.
CW - racist towards racists.
Oct 31st, 2009, 06:09 AM
#196
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<i>I have never been comfortable with Christians.</i>
That's fine, but do you attempt to use the state to discriminate against them and to push an alternate religion? That is EXACTLY what the supporters of this ban are trying to do. Were it not, they would be passing laws banning the playing of church bells and outlawing steeples.
That's fine, but do you attempt to use the state to discriminate against them and to push an alternate religion? That is EXACTLY what the supporters of this ban are trying to do. Were it not, they would be passing laws banning the playing of church bells and outlawing steeples.
Oct 31st, 2009, 06:33 AM
#197
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At a sporting event this summer, a Muslim teenage girl was participating and her legs and arms and head were fully covered. She is an outstanding athlete, however due to the heat of the day she faltered and dropped out. (Her parents require her to wear this outfit)
I thought the parents should be arrested on child abuse charges. But thats just me.
I thought the parents should be arrested on child abuse charges. But thats just me.
Oct 31st, 2009, 06:48 AM
#198
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>>I thought the parents should be arrested on child abuse charges. But thats just me.<<
Abuse charges would be warranted only if they forced her to continue. And I assume, as an MD, you examined the girl and made a medical determination that her clothing was the cause of the problem? And that the problem was a threat to her general health?
Abuse charges would be warranted only if they forced her to continue. And I assume, as an MD, you examined the girl and made a medical determination that her clothing was the cause of the problem? And that the problem was a threat to her general health?
Oct 31st, 2009, 06:57 AM
#199
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I'd like to see how you would feel about being forced to wear a certain type of clothing. Maybe a head-to-toe shroud, with only eyeholes cut out, even those screened? Would you call that an abuse of your human rights, or is it only ok when woman have to wear this crap?
Yup, child abuse. Arrest the *u*k**s and make them an example. Leave the millenium-old bs at home, the place you were so eager to leave, and enter this century, or even the last, but stop torturing your daughters.
Yup, child abuse. Arrest the *u*k**s and make them an example. Leave the millenium-old bs at home, the place you were so eager to leave, and enter this century, or even the last, but stop torturing your daughters.
