Minarets in Switzerland? upcoming national vote
Nov 29th, 2009, 04:04 PM
#262
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Bruce Bawer's wikipedia page quotes his book While Europe Slept:
"European officials have a clear route out of this nightmare. They have armies. They have police. They have prisons. They're in a position to deport planeloads of people everyday. They could start rescuing Europe tomorrow."
"European officials have a clear route out of this nightmare. They have armies. They have police. They have prisons. They're in a position to deport planeloads of people everyday. They could start rescuing Europe tomorrow."
Nov 30th, 2009, 10:02 AM
#263
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The Swisss are scum. They've always been Nazi scum. They continue to be Nazi scum. They think Hitler was a softy. Their ecenomony is built on others suffering. Not Toblerone.
They are not fit to be mentioned in the same breath as most European nations (apart from Germany and Austria who are also scum). Because they are scum. Nazi scum.
Where in London do Swiss scum hang out? I have some noses to break.
CW - not keen on fascists. Even those from picturesque nations. Likes punching Nazis.
Schuler - you seem like a decent stick. How are you going to deal with this? By now I would have filled a couple of hospital wards (I realise you're quite small but even so).
They are not fit to be mentioned in the same breath as most European nations (apart from Germany and Austria who are also scum). Because they are scum. Nazi scum.
Where in London do Swiss scum hang out? I have some noses to break.
CW - not keen on fascists. Even those from picturesque nations. Likes punching Nazis.
Schuler - you seem like a decent stick. How are you going to deal with this? By now I would have filled a couple of hospital wards (I realise you're quite small but even so).
Nov 30th, 2009, 11:10 AM
#264
CW: It would be so much easier to have an intelligent conversation with you if you'd stop calling the Swiss scum.
Please note: Mosques are not banned. Just minarets.
We've now opened pandora's box.
The SVP, our right wing party, wants to continue banning things. They will not succeed because Swiss aren't really into banning things. That's why smoking is still allowed in our restaurants.
My kids are real typical Swiss kids. Here's a conversation they had today:
Girl: I can't believe they banned minarets. It doesn't seem right.
Boy: The Muslims can have their mosques but they shouldn't be shouting things from their tower. That's not Swiss.
Girl: So what's the difference between them shouting and our church bells?
Boy: Shrug.
I think everyone has their own reasons for voting for this ban.
Some don't think the architecture fits in our culture.
Some don't like Muslims and general and want to put them into their place.
Some don't like the what minarets stand for but respect their desire to worship in their mosques.
Some just don't like the minaret as being so "in your face"
Some are scared of the Muslim religion because of its power it has over its worshipers. Christianity has lost most political power and the Swiss like it that way.
Some don't want minaret "shouters" in Switzerland.
Some wanted to show our Federal courts that they cannot overturn a local village's decision about building a minaret. (Wangen 2007: they didn't allow a minaret to be built. It went to the Federal court where it was overturned. The locals in Wangen were pissed. This is why the whole referandum started.)
Again: Mosques are allowed to be built in Switzerland. Muslims are allowed to worship.
It will be interesting to see what the future will bring.
CW: We don't like violence. We use referandums instead.
Please note: Mosques are not banned. Just minarets.
We've now opened pandora's box.
The SVP, our right wing party, wants to continue banning things. They will not succeed because Swiss aren't really into banning things. That's why smoking is still allowed in our restaurants.
My kids are real typical Swiss kids. Here's a conversation they had today:
Girl: I can't believe they banned minarets. It doesn't seem right.
Boy: The Muslims can have their mosques but they shouldn't be shouting things from their tower. That's not Swiss.
Girl: So what's the difference between them shouting and our church bells?
Boy: Shrug.
I think everyone has their own reasons for voting for this ban.
Some don't think the architecture fits in our culture.
Some don't like Muslims and general and want to put them into their place.
Some don't like the what minarets stand for but respect their desire to worship in their mosques.
Some just don't like the minaret as being so "in your face"
Some are scared of the Muslim religion because of its power it has over its worshipers. Christianity has lost most political power and the Swiss like it that way.
Some don't want minaret "shouters" in Switzerland.
Some wanted to show our Federal courts that they cannot overturn a local village's decision about building a minaret. (Wangen 2007: they didn't allow a minaret to be built. It went to the Federal court where it was overturned. The locals in Wangen were pissed. This is why the whole referandum started.)
Again: Mosques are allowed to be built in Switzerland. Muslims are allowed to worship.
It will be interesting to see what the future will bring.
CW: We don't like violence. We use referandums instead.
Nov 30th, 2009, 12:15 PM
#265
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I have to say that this simply reinforces my worst opinions of the Swiss, specifically the often illiberal social mores and policies. Not going to go so far as CW, perhaps, but there is a kernel of truth in his statements, even if he does take them a bit too far.
Nov 30th, 2009, 03:00 PM
#266
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Minarets aren't always used for calls to prayer. They're renovating a mosque several blocks from where I live and building a minaret. It won't be broadcasting calls to prayer or anything else.
As an aside, that mosque is not radical, in fact it's involved in various inter-faith projects with the local synagogues and churches including an annual peace walk. I don't understand where people get the idea that minarets are political or a symbol of radical Islam. They're just an architectural feature.
As an aside, that mosque is not radical, in fact it's involved in various inter-faith projects with the local synagogues and churches including an annual peace walk. I don't understand where people get the idea that minarets are political or a symbol of radical Islam. They're just an architectural feature.
Dec 1st, 2009, 04:49 AM
#267
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CW: It would be so much easier to have an intelligent conversation with you if you'd stop calling the Swiss scum.>>>
If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and consorts with other ducks, it’s a duck.
Like the Jewish hippy said “by their works you shall know them”.
If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and consorts with other ducks, it’s a duck.
Like the Jewish hippy said “by their works you shall know them”.
Dec 1st, 2009, 05:38 AM
#268
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It is their country. They, unlike the Britons, were able to VOTE! The Swiss are not allowing minarets, mosques are fine. IMO minarets mean they are the CENTER of community, it implies they ARE the community. A good SWISS watch should do the same thing as a minaret's meuzzin.
Dec 1st, 2009, 07:11 AM
#270
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CW - you're right in that a moslem (or as you say a duck) is a moselm so no one is denying that assertion. However to assume that a non-terrorist, law abdiding citizen, & proper moslem is somehow scum is what Hilter said about the Jews in 1940 and the dangerous thing is people start to stereotype them and them believe it.
We have to remember there are Islamic terrorists and separate out those that are not. To not do this - is the real danger.
We have to remember there are Islamic terrorists and separate out those that are not. To not do this - is the real danger.
Dec 1st, 2009, 07:34 AM
#274
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Nanabee: it's interesting that you got angry when CW stereotyped one group of people as "Scum" but you appear to have no issue with him stereotyping another group as "scum".
Surely the dangers of stereotyping apply universally, not just when you don't agree with the particular prejudice?
Surely the dangers of stereotyping apply universally, not just when you don't agree with the particular prejudice?
Dec 1st, 2009, 08:08 AM
#275
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<i>It is their country. They, unlike the Britons, were able to VOTE!</i>
But that doesn't make it right. The challenge of a liberal society is ensuring the protection of the minority, not imposing the will of the majority. Tyranny by vote is still tyranny.
Then again, I've never been a fan of the referendum and think it a fancy name for mob rule.
But that doesn't make it right. The challenge of a liberal society is ensuring the protection of the minority, not imposing the will of the majority. Tyranny by vote is still tyranny.
Then again, I've never been a fan of the referendum and think it a fancy name for mob rule.
Dec 1st, 2009, 08:36 AM
#278
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Interesting piece on the French news.
Minarets are not even a subject of discussion, let alone a national vote.
What is incongruous about this photo?
http://lci.tf1.fr/monde/europe/2009-...m-5561279.html
Minarets are not even a subject of discussion, let alone a national vote.
What is incongruous about this photo?
http://lci.tf1.fr/monde/europe/2009-...m-5561279.html
Dec 1st, 2009, 08:39 AM
#279
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<i>Is a minaret essential for a Muslim experience? Even Muslim scholars debate this principle.</i>
Then let the scholars debate it. Let people decide for themselves. Have a real debate. The Swiss don't actually debate this. One group puts up blatantly racist posters and calls that discourse. Another group is so stupid that they are swayed by it. A third group is simply so scared of change that they go along. A fourth group has been brainwashed by the Swiss "educational"/conscription/social system into thinking that there is something grand and holier-than-thou about "Swissness" and refuse to see how poisonous such notions are. And, finally, the good people in Switzerland are simply too chicken to stand up and say it is wrong.
This, of course, is the problem with referendums in general. They are almost always about persecuting the minority. Since the minority is by definition, the minority, these things pass because there aren't enough good people willing to stand up.
Then let the scholars debate it. Let people decide for themselves. Have a real debate. The Swiss don't actually debate this. One group puts up blatantly racist posters and calls that discourse. Another group is so stupid that they are swayed by it. A third group is simply so scared of change that they go along. A fourth group has been brainwashed by the Swiss "educational"/conscription/social system into thinking that there is something grand and holier-than-thou about "Swissness" and refuse to see how poisonous such notions are. And, finally, the good people in Switzerland are simply too chicken to stand up and say it is wrong.
This, of course, is the problem with referendums in general. They are almost always about persecuting the minority. Since the minority is by definition, the minority, these things pass because there aren't enough good people willing to stand up.
Dec 1st, 2009, 08:52 AM
#280
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What, the Swiss didn't debate this? I thought this was the subject of numrous media articles, interviews, town metings? The Swiss only saw posters and that was that? They didn't have a national discussion?
