Minarets in Switzerland? upcoming national vote
Dec 1st, 2009, 01:05 PM
#282
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<i>What, the Swiss didn't debate this? I thought this was the subject of numrous media articles, interviews, town metings? The Swiss only saw posters and that was that? They didn't have a national discussion?</i>
Do you think that the average Californian has more than a cursory knowledge of the pros and cons of their various ballot initiatives? Do you think most have the time or inclination to examine the issue in detail? Do most people spend much time at all thinking about issues of equity and minority vs majority rights, which might serve as a foundation for making a decision about this? How many people have the level of understanding of architecture and urban landscapes to really judge whether a minaret would actually blight the "scenic" Swiss town? Just how much debate do you expect anyone to participate in, particularly when it impacts so few in any significant, personal way?
At best, you might hope that the poorly informed cancel each other out. Unfortunately, for issues like this, racism and jingoism seem to be especially useful in swaying the uninformed, so you should expect the ill-informed to skew towards the racist and jingoistic alternative.
Do you think that the average Californian has more than a cursory knowledge of the pros and cons of their various ballot initiatives? Do you think most have the time or inclination to examine the issue in detail? Do most people spend much time at all thinking about issues of equity and minority vs majority rights, which might serve as a foundation for making a decision about this? How many people have the level of understanding of architecture and urban landscapes to really judge whether a minaret would actually blight the "scenic" Swiss town? Just how much debate do you expect anyone to participate in, particularly when it impacts so few in any significant, personal way?
At best, you might hope that the poorly informed cancel each other out. Unfortunately, for issues like this, racism and jingoism seem to be especially useful in swaying the uninformed, so you should expect the ill-informed to skew towards the racist and jingoistic alternative.
Dec 10th, 2009, 11:04 PM
#283
Opinions of Minarets in Europe:
Quote:
France: 49,000 readers of Le Figaro, by a 73-27 percent margin, would vote to ban new minarets in their country.
24,000 readers at L'Express agreed by an 86-12 per cent margin, with 2 per cent undecided.
Germany: 29,000 readers of Der Spiegel voted 76-21 per cent, with 2 per cent undecided, to ban minarets in Germany.
17,000 readers of Die Welt voted 82-16 per cent in favour of "Yes, I feel cramped by minarets" over "No, freedom of religion is constrained."
Spain: 14,000 readers of 20 Minutos voted 93-6 per cent in favour of the statement "Good, we must curb Islamisation's growing presence" and against "Bad, it is an obstacle to the integration of immigrants."
35,000 readers of El Mondo replied 80-20 per cent that they support a Swiss-like banning of minarets.
Although not scientific, the lop-sidedness of these (and other) polls, ranging from 73 to 93 per cent majorities endorsing the Swiss referendum, signal that Swiss voters represent growing anti-Islamic sentiments throughout Europe. The new amendment also validates and potentially encourages resistance to Islamisation throughout the continent.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225808376983
Quote:
France: 49,000 readers of Le Figaro, by a 73-27 percent margin, would vote to ban new minarets in their country.
24,000 readers at L'Express agreed by an 86-12 per cent margin, with 2 per cent undecided.
Germany: 29,000 readers of Der Spiegel voted 76-21 per cent, with 2 per cent undecided, to ban minarets in Germany.
17,000 readers of Die Welt voted 82-16 per cent in favour of "Yes, I feel cramped by minarets" over "No, freedom of religion is constrained."
Spain: 14,000 readers of 20 Minutos voted 93-6 per cent in favour of the statement "Good, we must curb Islamisation's growing presence" and against "Bad, it is an obstacle to the integration of immigrants."
35,000 readers of El Mondo replied 80-20 per cent that they support a Swiss-like banning of minarets.
Although not scientific, the lop-sidedness of these (and other) polls, ranging from 73 to 93 per cent majorities endorsing the Swiss referendum, signal that Swiss voters represent growing anti-Islamic sentiments throughout Europe. The new amendment also validates and potentially encourages resistance to Islamisation throughout the continent.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225808376983
Dec 10th, 2009, 11:57 PM
#284
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Well the Germans and Spanish have form as fascists (Spain up to the 70s) and France were the most enthusiastic persecutor of the Jews - so no change there then.
Also these are the countries with the worst race relations in Western Europe.
Incidentally what is the cods about "Islamisation"? How has your life changed because of Islam? Me? I'm still drinking beer and eating bacon butties and no one is stopping me.
It's an openly acknowledged fact by the BNP (Britain's far left anti-immigration party) that "Islam" is a code word for race and that all the statements on "Islam" are in fact statements on race.
So when people are saying "minarets not welcome" they are saying "brown people not welcome.
But yes, there is indeed a threat to our western European liberal tolerant way of life. These fascist scum who want to destroy everything we stand for.
Also these are the countries with the worst race relations in Western Europe.
Incidentally what is the cods about "Islamisation"? How has your life changed because of Islam? Me? I'm still drinking beer and eating bacon butties and no one is stopping me.
It's an openly acknowledged fact by the BNP (Britain's far left anti-immigration party) that "Islam" is a code word for race and that all the statements on "Islam" are in fact statements on race.
So when people are saying "minarets not welcome" they are saying "brown people not welcome.
But yes, there is indeed a threat to our western European liberal tolerant way of life. These fascist scum who want to destroy everything we stand for.
Dec 11th, 2009, 08:14 AM
#285
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Posting this "you're all racists" nosense again every few days, doesn't make it more real. Anyway it's Fiday and the Tommys are looking for a fight. Can't do that on Saturday because they're too pissed.
Dec 11th, 2009, 08:36 AM
#289
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The BNP is indeed a left wing racist party.
Chipping away at muslim culture in Europe is no different in any way way from the initial chipping away at Jewish symbols prior to the Holocaust.
As CW points out, the "Europeans" have form.
They still have a mentality of national purity, and the Mea Culpa of previous generations of Germans and Austrians seems to provide some kind of justification for the younger generation to make the same errors of their repentant forebears.
The French, Swiss and Italians have never been called to account for their overt complicity in the Holocaust, so simply think they can get away with it.
Thin end of the wedge if you ask me.
First they came for the muslims, and I did not speak out—because I was not a muslim;
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller (I added the first line myself)
Chipping away at muslim culture in Europe is no different in any way way from the initial chipping away at Jewish symbols prior to the Holocaust.
As CW points out, the "Europeans" have form.
They still have a mentality of national purity, and the Mea Culpa of previous generations of Germans and Austrians seems to provide some kind of justification for the younger generation to make the same errors of their repentant forebears.
The French, Swiss and Italians have never been called to account for their overt complicity in the Holocaust, so simply think they can get away with it.
Thin end of the wedge if you ask me.
First they came for the muslims, and I did not speak out—because I was not a muslim;
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller (I added the first line myself)
Dec 11th, 2009, 08:40 AM
#290
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The BNP is Britain's far RIGHT anti-immigration party, is it not, CW?
'Strawfoot' is an old American military term for a recent recruit, who is frequently accused by his drill instructor of having two left feet ("your OTHER left, stupid!") when s/he steps off on the wrong foot while learning close-order drill. Someone who mistakes their left for their right, in other words.
'Strawfoot' is an old American military term for a recent recruit, who is frequently accused by his drill instructor of having two left feet ("your OTHER left, stupid!") when s/he steps off on the wrong foot while learning close-order drill. Someone who mistakes their left for their right, in other words.
Dec 11th, 2009, 08:54 AM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party
"The British National Party (BNP) is a far-right political party formed as a splinter group of the National Front by John Tyndall in 1982."
I'd be interested on what grounds you define the BNP as 'very left wing indeed", CW.
"The British National Party (BNP) is a far-right political party formed as a splinter group of the National Front by John Tyndall in 1982."
I'd be interested on what grounds you define the BNP as 'very left wing indeed", CW.
Dec 11th, 2009, 09:13 AM
#293
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Try a broad policy of re-nationalisation of transport and heavy industry, higher taxes, a commitment to no private involvement in healthcare, increased state funding for care for the elderly, stricter environmental controls, promotion of organic farming, ending the monopolies of the big supermarkets and agro-business, a Bill of Rights and a radical democratisation of politics.
Dec 12th, 2009, 04:45 AM
#294
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Wot Hartley sez.
It's just lazy journalism that calls them right wing. They're just trots - racist trots.
BTW they're jubilant about this. They're even selling t-shirts (nb this is their site - so if you're at work you might want to think twice about looking at it (it's a sacking offence where I work):
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/10/excalibur-...ers-to-follow/
Now the swiss may be sticking their fingers in their ears and going la la la la la at the tops of their voices to avoid hearing this; but in the sane bits of Europe this is now how they're thought of.
BNP and the swiss. Teriffic bunch of blokes.
It's just lazy journalism that calls them right wing. They're just trots - racist trots.
BTW they're jubilant about this. They're even selling t-shirts (nb this is their site - so if you're at work you might want to think twice about looking at it (it's a sacking offence where I work):
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/10/excalibur-...ers-to-follow/
Now the swiss may be sticking their fingers in their ears and going la la la la la at the tops of their voices to avoid hearing this; but in the sane bits of Europe this is now how they're thought of.
BNP and the swiss. Teriffic bunch of blokes.
Dec 12th, 2009, 04:53 AM
#295
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I heard this guy interviewed on CBC radio yesterday- good for him.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6954014.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6954014.ece
Dec 12th, 2009, 05:38 AM
#297
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Interesting, JR & CW. I'd never heard that perspective on the BNP before. Incidentally....what's this I hear of a 'membership freeze' being imposed against the BNP?
Apres, I heard what was perhaps the same interview with the guy in Lausanne on NPR last night. Hardly a 'fair and balanced' report, more of something one would expect from Beck or Limbaugh. I objected to the characterization of those who voted for the ban as yokels and yodelers, without any attempt to present their views.
Apres, I heard what was perhaps the same interview with the guy in Lausanne on NPR last night. Hardly a 'fair and balanced' report, more of something one would expect from Beck or Limbaugh. I objected to the characterization of those who voted for the ban as yokels and yodelers, without any attempt to present their views.
Dec 12th, 2009, 05:48 AM
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Dec 12th, 2009, 05:49 AM
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Undifferentiated xenophobes, whether they yodel or not.
Seriously, it is a hangover from Nazi principles of ethnic and cultural purity.
The party pushing the referenda (a new one on expelling resident aliens who commit crime on its way) is German Swiss.
Walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi...It's a Nazi.
Seriously, it is a hangover from Nazi principles of ethnic and cultural purity.
The party pushing the referenda (a new one on expelling resident aliens who commit crime on its way) is German Swiss.
Walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi...It's a Nazi.
Dec 13th, 2009, 03:13 AM
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.what's this I hear of a 'membership freeze' being imposed against the BNP?>>>>
I don't know about a freeze, but they recently had to change their rules as they only allowed white people to join. That's just plain illegal here, so they were forced to allow anyone in.
Not that I can imagine a bunch of black people rushing to join (although, surprisingly, they do have quite a lot of support from Sikhs. Go figure).
I don't know about a freeze, but they recently had to change their rules as they only allowed white people to join. That's just plain illegal here, so they were forced to allow anyone in.
Not that I can imagine a bunch of black people rushing to join (although, surprisingly, they do have quite a lot of support from Sikhs. Go figure).
