Renting Paris Apartment in 2016
Oct 6th, 2016, 11:26 AM
#61
Sorry for my tedious attempts to understand, I see now that it isn't the areas around Paris that may choose not to adopt the regulations, but the 28 towns with more than 50,000 residents who will more than likely not adopt them.
So, in the midst of all this confusion, despite my 25% Jewish heritage, I may be inclined to simply not want to know.
So, in the midst of all this confusion, despite my 25% Jewish heritage, I may be inclined to simply not want to know.
Oct 6th, 2016, 12:04 PM
#62
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I see! Thanks for the explanation. So this is not a Paris law but instead French law applicable to towns above a certain size? However- from the perspective a tourist- I'm not sure I follow how one would expect tourists to know if a place was illegal if residents are still allowed to rent their places out for up to 4 months of the year. (Aside from the building by laws or contract rules, which a tourist can't exactly double check easily).
Oct 6th, 2016, 12:21 PM
#63
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A law was passed in July 2016, requiring all short-term rental owners to apply for a registration number - if they qualified, this number would have to be displayed on all advertising.
Justice moves very slowly for a variety of reasons in Paris. Many property owners do not live in France, and are protected by their agencies. Many owners living in France choose not to respond to government orders.
There is supposed to be a dispositif which will prevent all internet advertisements unless there is a registration number. This will take much more time than residents hoped for.
Since I spend hours each day perusing the real estate listings, looking for an apartment to rent long-term, I can vouch for the fact that an awful lot of them are changing over to yearly leases, or have been emptied out and are being sold.
Justice moves very slowly for a variety of reasons in Paris. Many property owners do not live in France, and are protected by their agencies. Many owners living in France choose not to respond to government orders.
There is supposed to be a dispositif which will prevent all internet advertisements unless there is a registration number. This will take much more time than residents hoped for.
Since I spend hours each day perusing the real estate listings, looking for an apartment to rent long-term, I can vouch for the fact that an awful lot of them are changing over to yearly leases, or have been emptied out and are being sold.
Oct 6th, 2016, 12:49 PM
#64
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And until the French sort out their glacial bureaucracy people will continue to rent apartments for their vacations and spend their money in Paris and good for them.
There are ways to get the word out that short term rentals are - in most cases - illegal but it's not being done on a large scale.
WoinParis This has nothing to do with anyone having 'higher moral standards'. As I said earlier - direct your rage at your government for being so slow to act and having insufferably rigid rules.
There are ways to get the word out that short term rentals are - in most cases - illegal but it's not being done on a large scale.
WoinParis This has nothing to do with anyone having 'higher moral standards'. As I said earlier - direct your rage at your government for being so slow to act and having insufferably rigid rules.
Oct 6th, 2016, 01:08 PM
#65
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Government is ok mate.
They voted a law - what last year ? - and they hired inspectors to check. 25 guys full time - 220 days a year - make a calculation based on how much time you need to check legallity and you'll see how much time they need to check and close illegal apts.
No, the ones I'm enraged with, to take your words, are people who don't give a rat about local laws and blame others. And tell others, perfectly innoncent toursits that it is ok to not care...
Insufferably rigid rules ? Why? Asking people to pay taxes is unsufferable ?
So let us summarize my position
1. people who don't care about local rules are arrogant and ignorant tourists;
2 tourists who break (or help break) local rules are thieves or fraudsters - esp if told by local that is bad, very bad;
3. people who boast about breaking the rules because that is the fault of .... insert here : government, me, whoever are the worst kind of law breakers : they are simply amoral people;
4. people who break the law knowingly and avoid tax collection will vote for Trump;
5. people who vote for Trump will ....
Do I exxagerate ?
I wish I were, I wish I were... people who don't care about anything and see only their egotistical wallet point of view are amoral and amoral people are bad for society.
My personal and humble opinion. And yes, I do have higher morals than yours, clearly.
And I like Kardashian, at least she gave 10 millions dollars worth of old jewelry for the good people of Paris. All because toutists don't pay taxes, so she wanted to contribute.
(Et d'abord, moi je paie mes taxes. En France. Alors, prout reste chez toi si tu veux pas payer pour ce que je mets à ta disposition. D'abord. Na. Et puis je vais pas me laisser faire par des touristes ignorants qui vont me dire comment me comporter dans mon pays. Non mais. Quoique la France n'est pas mon pays. Ah oui, pas pensé à cela. Mais je paie mes taxes en France donc c'est tout comme. Et puis c'est pas le débat. Ben non. Et puis faut que je retrouve ma bouteille, fait soif ici. Ah voilà, c'est fait. Bon, ben alors j'ai pus rien à dire ? Ben non, déjà que tout le monde s'en fout. P'têt mais ca fait du bien de se lâcher. Ah ben ouais, alors c'est bien. Et pis, mais alors, euh, blabla ben oui mon brave monsieur, ah là là, les gens ne respectent plus rien, et pis mon chien s'est fait opérer, ah bon ? Et il boîtait, non il caissait. hihi)
They voted a law - what last year ? - and they hired inspectors to check. 25 guys full time - 220 days a year - make a calculation based on how much time you need to check legallity and you'll see how much time they need to check and close illegal apts.
No, the ones I'm enraged with, to take your words, are people who don't give a rat about local laws and blame others. And tell others, perfectly innoncent toursits that it is ok to not care...
Insufferably rigid rules ? Why? Asking people to pay taxes is unsufferable ?
So let us summarize my position
1. people who don't care about local rules are arrogant and ignorant tourists;
2 tourists who break (or help break) local rules are thieves or fraudsters - esp if told by local that is bad, very bad;
3. people who boast about breaking the rules because that is the fault of .... insert here : government, me, whoever are the worst kind of law breakers : they are simply amoral people;
4. people who break the law knowingly and avoid tax collection will vote for Trump;
5. people who vote for Trump will ....
Do I exxagerate ?
I wish I were, I wish I were... people who don't care about anything and see only their egotistical wallet point of view are amoral and amoral people are bad for society.
My personal and humble opinion. And yes, I do have higher morals than yours, clearly.
And I like Kardashian, at least she gave 10 millions dollars worth of old jewelry for the good people of Paris. All because toutists don't pay taxes, so she wanted to contribute.
(Et d'abord, moi je paie mes taxes. En France. Alors, prout reste chez toi si tu veux pas payer pour ce que je mets à ta disposition. D'abord. Na. Et puis je vais pas me laisser faire par des touristes ignorants qui vont me dire comment me comporter dans mon pays. Non mais. Quoique la France n'est pas mon pays. Ah oui, pas pensé à cela. Mais je paie mes taxes en France donc c'est tout comme. Et puis c'est pas le débat. Ben non. Et puis faut que je retrouve ma bouteille, fait soif ici. Ah voilà, c'est fait. Bon, ben alors j'ai pus rien à dire ? Ben non, déjà que tout le monde s'en fout. P'têt mais ca fait du bien de se lâcher. Ah ben ouais, alors c'est bien. Et pis, mais alors, euh, blabla ben oui mon brave monsieur, ah là là, les gens ne respectent plus rien, et pis mon chien s'est fait opérer, ah bon ? Et il boîtait, non il caissait. hihi)
Oct 6th, 2016, 01:42 PM
#67
Whathello; You know that companies like Air B n B are collecting the city tax since October 1st, 2015. I know, probably not that much in the scheme of things.
You know that a proposal was in the works for companies like Air B n B to forward owner info when renting a unit of short term rentals to the city of Paris.
Do I know happened--I don't know.
You know that Air B n B has 40, 50 thousand units in Paris.
You know that Air B n b had 3.8 million tourists from around the world renting using Air B n B rentals last year.
You know that it has contributed 1.3 billion to the Paris economy.
You know that cancellations that happen are practically NIL in the scheme of things. Probably the same cancellation rate as hotels.
You know the Air B n B has a pilot program that sent out letters to all its unit owners this year for the city to then see if owners are comply with local law.
Rational people please help me with a more comprehensive explanation.
Please, any rational person correct anything I have said.
Pariswat, you and I have disagreed in the past but I have never seen you this way equating the holocaust and using the word Nazi to this discussion of short term rentals in Paris.
This is a discussion that frequently shows up on Fodor's Trip advisor and other sites.
Time to 'slow down and smell the roses.'
WoinParis
Best regard
Richard
You know that a proposal was in the works for companies like Air B n B to forward owner info when renting a unit of short term rentals to the city of Paris.
Do I know happened--I don't know.
You know that Air B n B has 40, 50 thousand units in Paris.
You know that Air B n b had 3.8 million tourists from around the world renting using Air B n B rentals last year.
You know that it has contributed 1.3 billion to the Paris economy.
You know that cancellations that happen are practically NIL in the scheme of things. Probably the same cancellation rate as hotels.
You know the Air B n B has a pilot program that sent out letters to all its unit owners this year for the city to then see if owners are comply with local law.
Rational people please help me with a more comprehensive explanation.
Please, any rational person correct anything I have said.
Pariswat, you and I have disagreed in the past but I have never seen you this way equating the holocaust and using the word Nazi to this discussion of short term rentals in Paris.
This is a discussion that frequently shows up on Fodor's Trip advisor and other sites.
Time to 'slow down and smell the roses.'
WoinParis
Best regard
Richard
Oct 6th, 2016, 01:42 PM
#68
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Even funnier is Google translate's view
<And first, I pay my taxes. In France. So fart stay at home if you want to pay for what I put at your disposal. First. N / A. And I will not let me by ignorant tourists who will tell me how to behave in my country. No but. Although France is not my country. Oh, not thought of that. But I pay my taxes in France so it's like. And it's not the debate. Well no. And then I have to find my bottle, made thirsty here. Ah, it's done. Okay, well then I could nothing to say? Nope, already everybody cares. P'têt but it feels good to let go. Oh yeah, so that's good. And worse, but then, uh, yeah blah my good sir, oh my, people respect nothing more, and worse my dog had surgery, really? And he limped, not caissait it. hihi)>
Look, WoinParis - I respect your point of view but 25 inspectors is somewhat pitiful. I would say the French government can do better. They can start by publicising this as - surprise surprise - most tourists are good people who want to do the right thing.
<And first, I pay my taxes. In France. So fart stay at home if you want to pay for what I put at your disposal. First. N / A. And I will not let me by ignorant tourists who will tell me how to behave in my country. No but. Although France is not my country. Oh, not thought of that. But I pay my taxes in France so it's like. And it's not the debate. Well no. And then I have to find my bottle, made thirsty here. Ah, it's done. Okay, well then I could nothing to say? Nope, already everybody cares. P'têt but it feels good to let go. Oh yeah, so that's good. And worse, but then, uh, yeah blah my good sir, oh my, people respect nothing more, and worse my dog had surgery, really? And he limped, not caissait it. hihi)>
Look, WoinParis - I respect your point of view but 25 inspectors is somewhat pitiful. I would say the French government can do better. They can start by publicising this as - surprise surprise - most tourists are good people who want to do the right thing.
Oct 6th, 2016, 02:02 PM
#69
Politicians do things, and don't do things, to advance their own agendas. The obvious approach would be to expand and publicize enforcement. But since neither has happened, except in a remarkably minimal way, I guess the question is, Why? I have no knowledge of Paris politics but I do observe. It seems to me that we're free to rent apartments, until the evidence that the City actually doesn't want us to, is in.
Oct 6th, 2016, 03:13 PM
#70
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So basically, they've made it so everyone who doesn't register can be fined- and I'm assuming if you do register, you pay a fee to do so and then they use that registry to enforce taxes. Is that right? How do the rental companies protect their clients? I would think it would be the rental companies that are the biggest, easiest target.
I think I understand the system, now, but I'm back to wondering about the vitriol that shows up here. Is this publicized on any of the tourism websites? Because (in US) I only hear about it (in any city) on these forums and maybe tangentially in the news. It is not something a casual tourist would hear about- I.e. There doesn't seem to be a public ad campaign, really. Yet someone comes along here and merely mentions they are thinking about renting an apartment- and instant dog pile. I was researching visiting Paris a few months ago- and I can't remember any mentions of this online other than in the forums. Google rent an apartment in Paris and you get a bunch of ads- including ones on tripadvisor. And I've seen plenty of "fantasy" articles like this one:
http://www.travelandleisure.com/arti...tment-in-paris
Guess what I'm getting at is that I don't quite understand this assumption that everyone who rents an apartment must know it's mostly illegal...and then the ensuing outrage.
I think I understand the system, now, but I'm back to wondering about the vitriol that shows up here. Is this publicized on any of the tourism websites? Because (in US) I only hear about it (in any city) on these forums and maybe tangentially in the news. It is not something a casual tourist would hear about- I.e. There doesn't seem to be a public ad campaign, really. Yet someone comes along here and merely mentions they are thinking about renting an apartment- and instant dog pile. I was researching visiting Paris a few months ago- and I can't remember any mentions of this online other than in the forums. Google rent an apartment in Paris and you get a bunch of ads- including ones on tripadvisor. And I've seen plenty of "fantasy" articles like this one:
http://www.travelandleisure.com/arti...tment-in-paris
Guess what I'm getting at is that I don't quite understand this assumption that everyone who rents an apartment must know it's mostly illegal...and then the ensuing outrage.
Oct 6th, 2016, 03:55 PM
#71
And what I'm offering is, marvelousmouse, in case there's any doubt, if the Paris government can't seem to demonstrate commitment to their own laws and ideals and concern for it's citizens' well-being, why should a visitor care more?
Oct 6th, 2016, 04:20 PM
#72
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And anyone wanting to do the right thing gets no help from the official tourist websites
http://en.visitparisregion.com/housi...ls-270896.html
That link takes you nowhere
And this one simply directs you to 'specialist agencies' - there is no warning about any illegalities on either site.
http://en.parisinfo.com/where-to-sle...nished-rentals
http://en.visitparisregion.com/housi...ls-270896.html
That link takes you nowhere
And this one simply directs you to 'specialist agencies' - there is no warning about any illegalities on either site.
http://en.parisinfo.com/where-to-sle...nished-rentals
Oct 6th, 2016, 04:41 PM
#73
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Jusher69,
I hope you have a fabulous time in Paris with your daughters and grandchildren.
We always rent from Paris Perfect, I highly recommend them. We also like the 7th arrondissement. I love Paris in November.
Seventy more days until Paris!
I hope you have a fabulous time in Paris with your daughters and grandchildren.
We always rent from Paris Perfect, I highly recommend them. We also like the 7th arrondissement. I love Paris in November.
Seventy more days until Paris!
Oct 6th, 2016, 05:15 PM
#74
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Mmeperdu- that's what I thought you were saying
I agree. I do not see how it is the tourists' job to go above and beyond. I was simply trying to figure out what was behind the vehemence in every thread on this topic. I feel like I've seen a dozen thread here alone this year- and they always devolve into nastiness.
Blueeyedcod- in that second link, I especially liked the bit about how those specialty agents are good because they know the rules and regulations. The implication being that if you rent from a reputable agency you will not run afoul of the law, lol- which is no doubt what many tourists think!
I agree. I do not see how it is the tourists' job to go above and beyond. I was simply trying to figure out what was behind the vehemence in every thread on this topic. I feel like I've seen a dozen thread here alone this year- and they always devolve into nastiness.Blueeyedcod- in that second link, I especially liked the bit about how those specialty agents are good because they know the rules and regulations. The implication being that if you rent from a reputable agency you will not run afoul of the law, lol- which is no doubt what many tourists think!
Oct 6th, 2016, 11:19 PM
#76
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AirBnB did send out letters advising that their clients should pay the taxe de sejour. AirBnB's CEO also said that there would be no follow up regarding this, since they don't consider it their job to police their clients.
As with all other listing services, all these companies do is offer paid advertising. They take no responsibility for the legality of the properties they offer.
Agencies protect their owners by assuring them that there is nothing to worry about - and it is the agency which has nothing to worry about, since listing property is not illegal. Absentee owners who don't care enough to attend the yearly meetings of the co-propriete are happy to remain completely ignorant.
You have to be living under a rock to avoid knowing that vacation rentals are undergoing a crackdown in Paris or most any other major city. This is widespread knowledge. People who don't bother turning to the second page of Google will probably miss this information, though.
As with all other listing services, all these companies do is offer paid advertising. They take no responsibility for the legality of the properties they offer.
Agencies protect their owners by assuring them that there is nothing to worry about - and it is the agency which has nothing to worry about, since listing property is not illegal. Absentee owners who don't care enough to attend the yearly meetings of the co-propriete are happy to remain completely ignorant.
You have to be living under a rock to avoid knowing that vacation rentals are undergoing a crackdown in Paris or most any other major city. This is widespread knowledge. People who don't bother turning to the second page of Google will probably miss this information, though.
Oct 6th, 2016, 11:45 PM
#77
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talking of the devil, this article in Les Echos (equivalent of Financial Times) this morning
http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-ser...is-2033060.php
If hospitality industry had recognised in due time that tourists expectations were changing, we would not have this heated debate.
Each stakeholder should do his job : the tourist to visit and enjoy Paris,the hotel industry to provide accomodation that suits tourist needs and the government to ensure that owners play fair.
It reminds me of Uber versus Taxis : If taxis had been able to provide customers with clean cars, impeccably dressed chauffeurs, did not have the bat habit to come to your home with 30€ on the meter, making detours and claiming they only want cash once you arrive, Uber would not be so successful.
Here is another example: more and more supermarkets are now open on Sunday afternoon. Dear tourist, beware ! Most of these openings are illegal ! If you really want to make sure that you dont break the law, we will need to check time (1pm, 2pm?), if you are in a "special tourist zone" or not, if there are employees or just the owner in the supermarket.
http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-ser...is-2033060.php
If hospitality industry had recognised in due time that tourists expectations were changing, we would not have this heated debate.
Each stakeholder should do his job : the tourist to visit and enjoy Paris,the hotel industry to provide accomodation that suits tourist needs and the government to ensure that owners play fair.
It reminds me of Uber versus Taxis : If taxis had been able to provide customers with clean cars, impeccably dressed chauffeurs, did not have the bat habit to come to your home with 30€ on the meter, making detours and claiming they only want cash once you arrive, Uber would not be so successful.
Here is another example: more and more supermarkets are now open on Sunday afternoon. Dear tourist, beware ! Most of these openings are illegal ! If you really want to make sure that you dont break the law, we will need to check time (1pm, 2pm?), if you are in a "special tourist zone" or not, if there are employees or just the owner in the supermarket.
Oct 7th, 2016, 12:16 AM
#78
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<i>And anyone wanting to do the right thing gets no help from the official tourist websites</i>
Blueeyedcod, why are you so willing to believe that the websites you list operate in some officially sanctioned capacity? Declared <i>official</i> by whom other than their marketing department? You seem very willing to ignore the information on the City of Paris´ own websites (those which do not end in .com) and prefer to embrace information from those selling the Paris Visite and cabaret tickets.
Rather than relying on information from promoters, read and refer to the city´s own website about developments in the vacation rental market.
<i> The implication being that if you rent from a reputable agency you will not run afoul of the law, lol- which is no doubt what many tourists think!</i>
marvelousmouse - I agree with your observation. It is not the tourist who should be penalized or harmed, enforcement should be directed at those businesses who, for their own financial gain, mislead tourists and misrepresent the facts about black market apartments.
The latest change in effect for only several weeks, requiring agencies to list registration numbers for the apartments they advertise, for the first time, brings enforcement to their doorsteps. It will be very interesting to watch how rental agencies adjust and comply.
Given France´s penchant for bureaucracy, things do move slowly but the trend is certainly towards the curtailment of illegal rental activity.
Blueeyedcod, why are you so willing to believe that the websites you list operate in some officially sanctioned capacity? Declared <i>official</i> by whom other than their marketing department? You seem very willing to ignore the information on the City of Paris´ own websites (those which do not end in .com) and prefer to embrace information from those selling the Paris Visite and cabaret tickets.
Rather than relying on information from promoters, read and refer to the city´s own website about developments in the vacation rental market.
<i> The implication being that if you rent from a reputable agency you will not run afoul of the law, lol- which is no doubt what many tourists think!</i>
marvelousmouse - I agree with your observation. It is not the tourist who should be penalized or harmed, enforcement should be directed at those businesses who, for their own financial gain, mislead tourists and misrepresent the facts about black market apartments.
The latest change in effect for only several weeks, requiring agencies to list registration numbers for the apartments they advertise, for the first time, brings enforcement to their doorsteps. It will be very interesting to watch how rental agencies adjust and comply.
Given France´s penchant for bureaucracy, things do move slowly but the trend is certainly towards the curtailment of illegal rental activity.
Oct 7th, 2016, 09:38 AM
#79
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Wo, I believe, is Belgian. I've entertained myself today imagining his words spoken by David Suchet. It saves me from less positive emotions.
Thanks Mme Perdu, quite nice answer.
To some, I'm not holier than others, but I don't boast when I do something illegal. That's what really pi$$es me off.
I was some days ago with good friends and 2 of them are veteranians (sp ?) and explained that they made 21% more black money when authorities decided to put VAT taxes on services provides to animals. They could of course not tell their clients that they didn't declare (all of) their visits so they just charged overnight everybody 21% of VAT, including the animals who officially never came...
We roared with laughter and I nearly broke the cork of the Châteauneuf du Pape 2008 i was opening - would have been a waste. But it was in a private meeting. I don't imagine them broadcasting on forums that they lie and cheat on taxes and they don't care because there are not enough inspectors to check all tax revenues déclarations...
But I admit that I've been quite virulent. However, I do think in the bottom of myself that somebody who can really believe there is no harm to lie and cheat and absolve themselves of any responsibility because it is the job of others are taking the path that most of the guys involved in the wrong side of the holcaust took.
Shoot, I said it again.
Now, enough said.
For those who have
Thanks Mme Perdu, quite nice answer.
To some, I'm not holier than others, but I don't boast when I do something illegal. That's what really pi$$es me off.
I was some days ago with good friends and 2 of them are veteranians (sp ?) and explained that they made 21% more black money when authorities decided to put VAT taxes on services provides to animals. They could of course not tell their clients that they didn't declare (all of) their visits so they just charged overnight everybody 21% of VAT, including the animals who officially never came...
We roared with laughter and I nearly broke the cork of the Châteauneuf du Pape 2008 i was opening - would have been a waste. But it was in a private meeting. I don't imagine them broadcasting on forums that they lie and cheat on taxes and they don't care because there are not enough inspectors to check all tax revenues déclarations...
But I admit that I've been quite virulent. However, I do think in the bottom of myself that somebody who can really believe there is no harm to lie and cheat and absolve themselves of any responsibility because it is the job of others are taking the path that most of the guys involved in the wrong side of the holcaust took.
Shoot, I said it again.
Now, enough said.
For those who have
Oct 7th, 2016, 09:53 AM
#80
"...I don't boast when I do something illegal."
You might consider that in some cases a point is being made which, to the less imaginative reader, might appear to be boasting.
"...somebody who can really believe there is no harm to lie and cheat and absolve themselves of any responsibility..."
So if I read you correctly, your friends can lie & cheat and it's good for a laugh, while we on Fodor's are subject to your righteous indignation? I imagine similar behavior contributed to atrocities in all eras, condemn those at a distance while making excuses for those near & dear.
You might consider that in some cases a point is being made which, to the less imaginative reader, might appear to be boasting.
"...somebody who can really believe there is no harm to lie and cheat and absolve themselves of any responsibility..."
So if I read you correctly, your friends can lie & cheat and it's good for a laugh, while we on Fodor's are subject to your righteous indignation? I imagine similar behavior contributed to atrocities in all eras, condemn those at a distance while making excuses for those near & dear.
