rouelan

"Do you guys monitor compliance with all laws? It must get tiring."

It may be their main job : tax inspector, gendarme, garde champetre...

WoinParis

Ouais.
actually you always say the same :
You want to be allowed as you please.
You don't care about the laws it is a problem for authorities not you.
I am an a$$hole because I tell you it is best to respect the law.
I guess none of you stop at a red light since there are so few agents to enforce the laws.
On what ground do you decide to abide by the rules or to ignore.
On what criteria am I judged because I don't like tax evaders and parasites who abuse the system ? How do you judge The owners who fraud and the clients who are happy to save some big bucks and don't care ?
I don't see how we can reconcile our points of view but if I am an a$$hole let me accuse you of being thieves or accomplices of thieves. Knowingly.

NewbE

Well, for what it's worth, I think you're the only one calling yourself an a$$hole.

No one asked, but my view is that if many apartments are legal to rent, and perhaps just as many are illegal, it is not my job as a tourist to avoid all apartment rentals on principal. I am required to do my best to avoid breaking the law, but that's all I'm required to do, and using a reputable agency satisfies that requirement.

Wo's rather overheated comparisons don't hold water. Running a red light is always illegal. Buying illegal drugs is always illegal. I can't claim I didn't know I was breaking the law.

This problem is Paris' (and London's, and NYC's) to solve. Right now, the law is too complex and too spottily enforced for anyone to expect tourists to figure out how to comply with it.

fuzzbucket

jusher69 - nobody can guarantee that an apartment you choose will be available, even if someone has just stayed in the same place recently. Even if you pay in advance, quite often the owner/agency will choose to give priority to guests who will stay longer than a week, and you risk a last-minute cancellation.

It's difficult to check out the owner or manager, who often own or manage several properties - which is illegal. If you want to be certain that the apartment you choose is legal, it must have a registration number listed in the advertisement. The property owner must apply for the license, which is time-consuming and expensive. As a result, many vacation apartments are now showing up as furnished yearly rentals on real estate websites, or are for sale.

You didn't state your budget, but it's doubtful that you'd find a nice 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment in the areas you mentioned unless you could spend a lot of money.

If you want more space, clean linens, real beds and two full bathrooms, I'd recommend looking for either 2 adjoining hotel rooms or a legal apart'hotel (which will have a kitchen and laundry facilities).

You mentioned the 6eme arrondissement - not far away in the 5eme, there is a very nice apart'hotel on a quiet street near the Cluny museum, convenient to transport and walking, markets, etc
http://www.residencehenri4.com/en/
In the 4eme arrondissement, there's a fairly new apart'hotel in a convenient area:
http://leroidesicile-paris.com/eng/

jusher69

Hello Jennifer_Travels, I'd love to talk with you before I rent the apartment you described which is available for our time. Please write me at [email protected].

Thanks to all who have responded to this thread. I've learned LOTS!

kerouac

The best thing the French could do would be to hold the vacation renters penally responsible for renting an illegal apartment. Then they might pay a bit more attention to what they are doing.

Sarastro

I am not sure that holding the vacation renters themselves personally responsible would be the best tactic. Many of them are well intentioned and understanding the situation here in Paris is not really easy as many apartments are indeed very legal to rent. It´s not always a simple affair to differentiate between the legal and illegal.

Who should be held responsible are the promoters and agencies who know better yet ignore the laws when it suits them financially to do so.

Christina

I don't think it's feasible nor even "fair" to hold the renters liable. Following that logic, you should hold customers liable if they buy something in a store that doesn't pay its taxes or that is doing something else illegal. Or if they ride in a taxi that doesn't set the fare properly, or whatever. Since when are victims of illegal activity held liable, if they don't know about it? Besides, I can't see how you hold foreigners liable for civil infractions like that.

How would they even do that?

as for this statement by rouelan: <<basically it says : if the owner lives there (or in the same building)>>

I agree with Sarastro, I read that entire document and it doesn't say that at all that I can see. It merely says you don't have to get an authorization if you live there at least 8 months and it is your principal residence (the apt, not the building), but you do still have to pay the taxe de sejour. It doesn't seem to have page numbers on it, but when I printed it, that was on page 38, in the later section entitled "LOcation meublees touristiques: ce qu'il faut savoir".

Believe me, Paris Perfect apts are not owner-occupied 8 months of a year. If they are legal, I also don't know why they aren't more transparent and don't post the registration numbers.

But for the OP, as to whether it is "safe" to rent from Airbnb and VRBO re sending money, I would think usually it is, but sometimes not, and the best thing is to pay attention to personal recommendations or reviews (although on their own website, they could be fabricated, I suppose). So asking on here is one way of doing that.

WoinParis

Just rent illegally guys.
And with what you save you can tip lavishly these poor waiters who aren't paid enough.
Hypocrites ?
I pay my taxes. Pay yours.

kerouac

I dunno. If you were visiting North Korea, would you respect the laws of the country? I suspect that you would. Are the laws of France less worthy of respect? Probably not.

So if you are not respecting the laws of France, it implies that you respect the country less than North Korea. Does that sum it up? You like getting away with things in less scary countries? What about the laws of the United States? Do you Americans ignore them?

NewbE

Where did you guys learn to logic, the College of Knowledge? I respect the law everywhere, but if I can't tell if a thing is illegal, it's not my fault.

Asking tourists to avoid ALL apartment rentals because SOME are illegal is absurd.

Cities around the world have been utterly incompetent at solving this problem, so Paris is not alone. But tourists are not going to solve it for them.

marvelousmouse

So, as this comes up fairly frequently, I'm finally curious enough to ask. What are the consequences for actually breaking this law in Paris? Because the posters in this thread have implied that this is either at the level of a minor civil fine (one rarely applied) or a crime on the level of breaking a law in North Korea (whatever that implies). I suspect it must be the former or else it would not be such an issue? Is there an agency specifically in charge of auditing and enforcing? Or is it more along the lines of "neighbors complained so let's send a cease and desist letter to owners".

And Kerouac- while I have yet to rent an illegal apartment, I have so far today broken 2 laws. Forgot to feed the parking meter and then jaywalked. I don't think I can blame that on being an ugly American. Pretty sure folks elsewhere commit the same (oh so serious) offenses. I very much doubt it's JUST American tourists renting those apartments.

MmePerdu

While an outlaw at heart, I'd prefer not to have my plans disrupted, or even the threat. So can someone tell me where exactly the threat physically ends? Is it the Périphérique? Or not that simple? I'd like to find a place outside the threat zone and relax. Anyone, please?

Nikki

"What about the laws of the United States? Do you Americans ignore them?"

There are the same issues about vacation rentals in New York. You can read very similar discussions on the US forum here. I'm guessing some of the many tourists renting apartments there are European while many others are from the US.

This is not an issue pitting ugly Americans against Parisians. It is much more complicated than that.

justineparis

What can happen, if you rent an apattment that is illegal, and its been caught , you may get an email from the owner telling you it is no longer available to rent. Not so much a problem a frw months in advance , but a week or two in advance of your arrivale , could be most upsetting to scramble to find another plac e

Blueeyedcod

<<you may get an email from the owner telling you it is no longer available to rent. >>

That can happen in other circumstances such as plumbing or wiring issues or the owner getting a 'better offer'. It has happened to me in hotels - you get bumped to another hotel which may be nearby or not. Nothing is certain.

How is a tourist expected to know for certain if something is an illegal rental or not. The onus is on the authorities to sort this out and at the same time, provide affordable housing for its citizens. The share economy isn't going anywhere.

FYI - not everyone who contributes on these forums is American (I'm not) and the overarching rudeness to Americans is really unnecessary. I do believe visitor numbers to Paris have plummeted in the last 12 months anyway.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKCN10Y1B6

I would think faffing around tracking down illegal apartment rentals would be a fairly low priority.

marvelousmouse

Justineparis- The owner could also just randomly change his or her mind. That is one of the reasons I do not use airbnb. But that is not a LEGAL consequence- and as blueeyedcod pointed out, that can happen with any type of lodging. Hotels can double book or go out of business, and do, often. It's a less dramatic example- but you can also be given the wrong room type when you check in. Booking 9 months out or 9 days out- it doesn't seem to matter in terms of a gaurantee.

Interesting article in the link. I would not have expected there to have been such a drastic impact. I wonder how many of those tourists stayed away because of the terrorism and how many stayed away for economic reasons.

Sarastro

<i>Asking tourists to avoid ALL apartment rentals because SOME are illegal is absurd. </i>

It is not SOME vacation apartments that are illegal, it is MOST. One city official earlier this year mentioned the number at approximately 80% of the apartments listed on line in Paris are illegal.

There are only two types of legal short term apartments:

1. Those registered with the city, of which there are currently 112:

http://tinyurl.com/legal-apartments

2. Those which are an owner´s primary residence and which are not rented for more than 4 months a year. The owner must occupy the apartment for a minimum of 8 months a year. The exact number of apartments in this category is constantly changing as any owner can list his apartment for a week or two or up to the maximum time of 4 months.

I´ll agree that it should be absolutely crystal clear for everyone but it never will be because primary owners do not have to register their apartments to rent them for a few days.

Still, it´s rather easy to determine that many of the on-line listings are not someone´s primary residence and do not have city registration numbers. The danger in renting one of these obviously clandestine units is that it can be pulled from the market at any time.


<i> What are the consequences for actually breaking this law in Paris?</i>

There are no legal consequences for the vacationer nor should there be. There will always be neighbors who do not want you in their buildings but this will not deter any large number of renters. The real danger is in having your accommodations canceled with little to no warning.


<i>Is there an agency specifically in charge of auditing and enforcing? </i>

The mayor´s task force currently consists of 25 full-time inspectors whose only responsibility is the investigation of illegal vacation apartments.


<i>I'd prefer not to have my plans disrupted, or even the threat. So can someone tell me where exactly the threat physically ends? Is it the Périphérique? Or not that simple?</i>

Included in the regulation is all of Paris (or that area within the périphérique) as well as most of the surrounding suburbs. However, if you really want to avoid rental problems, look for apartments on the ground floor (rez de chaussée) as these are exempt from regulation (except properties in the 8th which are larger than 50 meters squared).

fuzzbucket

I have been trying to rent a long-term apartment (lease 3 years or longer) for the last 7 months, since I sold my apartment. I'm currently in an apartment with a one-year lease.
All of the rental agencies have told me that there is virtually nothing available due to the amount of vacation apartments, which they estimate to be 40% of the previously available rentals.

WoinParis

Most tourists who want to rent want live like a local.
And what do you say guys ?
Local laws are not my problem.
Local taxes are to be avoided to save some money for me tourist.

Yes you are not supposed to say which apt is legal. But to say they are because they show on sites of agencies is utter BS.

All I say is to pay attention ask for an invoice and don't pay cash.

But it is too much for some hypocrites here who are repeatedly told there is a problem and because if that a law is being enforced.
They want to live like a local who doesn't care and speaks English and follow US rules.
Hypocrites stubborn and fraudsters.