justineparis

As it stands now there is no legal consequence to the vacation renter.. its the owner that has the problems.. legally.

If you book a stay in a hotel and there is problem with plumbing( etc) .. there is usually another room.. and more importantly.. you haven't had to pay some deposit.. or even the whole fee , ahead of time.

Also many people who rent apartments have special situations that make finding a last minute hotel room less easy..ie .. larger family groups.. its not easy at the best of times to find hotel rooms that take 4 or more people ( in fact its a LOT harder for families of 5 plus.. ) . Apartments do offer them the space and separate bedrooms that are ideal when travelling with kids. Since the apartment rental situation is less stable now then ever.. I think one should carefully consider the option of staying in a perfectly legal Apart hotel.

I am not against vacation rentals.. but I think it something that too many tourists go into lightly .. without doing all their homework..

Blueeyedcod

<Most tourists who want to rent want live like a local.>

WoinParis

I think what they want is convenience and charm. A washer/dryer, a kitchen, separate bedrooms. Living 'like a local' is a fantasy and most tourists realistically know this. If they really wanted to 'live like a local' then Paris has its fair share of dreary suburbs.

Blame the owners instead of the tourists. They're the ones who control the supply. They're clearly making money. You're ragging on the wrong people - tourists who simply want to enjoy Paris and have a good time - and (might I add) contribute a huge amount to the economy) - but no - you see fit to label them hypocrites? Save your venom for the owners, maybe?

rouelan

Accorhotel held their investor day yesterday.
It is striking that the 1st statement is "Raise of lodging alternative offers focusing on local flavor and personalized services".
And accor launched their own product, just because they recognize that many tourists now have different aspirations.

I think it may be a bit unfair to put all the blame on vacation rental for the lack of long term rent.
On one hand, there are plenty of empty(or seldom used)appartments. And it is the case for most attractive cities because of people buying there as second home or "pied à terre".
On the other end, many owners are just discouraged to rent on long term because of caps (meaning it is more profitable to rent for short stays) or because law is very protective for tenants, even if they dont pay.

WoinParis

I dislike the owners who cheat on taxes but I equally dislike people who don't bother.
I have had people in the family rounded up by the police, given a yellow star and sent to death.
And everybody was saying it was not their problem.
Everybody could not be asked to know what happened it was a problem for the authorities.
So for me it is called having a conscience. Some people hide behind excuses that they don't know or cannot know but basically they don't care.
Hence my calling them hypocrites.
Just face the issue : you know most apts are illegal. Because the law made it illegal. And the listings of Airbnb or others weren't updated overnight or were they ?
You can chose to not care but you become part of the problem.
Again : ask if it is legal ask for invoice and refuse cash - you'll be doing your job.
And I don't care to have thieves or fraudsters contributing to my economy. I prefer people respecting the laws and paying their taxes.
Contributing to an economy by cheating on taxes exactly fits my description of hypocrisies.

Sarastro

<i>On one hand, there are plenty of empty(or seldom used)appartments.</i>

If you have actually explored the apartment market you will probably conclude as I have, there are not plenty of empty apartments. There can be seldom used apartments but the French government is not going to prohibit one´s purchasing an apartment simply because the owner chooses to use it only occasionally.

Everyone is free to purchase a pied à terre if he chooses. He is not free to turn it into a commercial enterprise.

<i> many owners are just discouraged to rent on long term because of caps (meaning it is more profitable to rent for short stays) or because law is very protective for tenants, even if they dont pay.</i>

There are rental caps in place and short term rentals are not exempt from these caps. This is another aspect of recent laws that the mayor´s task force is or will be exploring and another tool they now have to close down clandestine operations.

Current law not only guarantees caps to renters but owners receive the benefit of having the government pay them directly when renters default.

Real estate laws have changed enormously in France and only part of these changes affect the vacation rental market. However, as potential users of vacation apartments in Paris, the emphasis on this forum is understandably only on the vacation rental aspect of the laws and its implementation.

fuzzbucket

I can assure everyone that the rental agencies are speaking only about "available" long-term rental properties, not unused empty apartments which they don't consider as part of their inventory. These apartments are simply not available, and not on the market.

marvelousmouse

Woinparis- I think that may the first occurrence of Godwin's Law I have seen on Fodor's. Gongratulations. Amazed it hasn't happened sooner. Do you use that line at work meetings and does anyone manage to keep a straight face?

Anyway- I know the tourists aren't punished. I was actually asking about the owners. Because they'll keep renting their apartments until the stick is actually bigger than the carrot.

WoinParis

Did you keep a straight face when Michelle Obama said it is not glorious to avoid paying taxes and yet rule for presidency ?

I have higher moral standards than you. Is all.

kerouac

There is a tax on vacant apartments in cities with a population of more than 50,000. It is applied to apartments that have been vacant for more than one year as of January 1st. The first year it is equal to one month of rental value. The second year it is equal to two months of rental value. There are additional administrative fees on top of the tax. And there are plans to quadruple the tax.

marvelousmouse

Woinparis- I think that insult lacks the zing you intended. I have trouble keeping a straight face when anyone in politics opens their mouth. But in fact I was on your side until you trotted out such an absurd comparison on social responsibility. No idea how that means you have higher moral standards.

Thanks, Kerouac. Tax penalty makes sense. But how do they define vacant? Is it no permanent resident for less than 8 months of the year or merely no name on the lease. Because I would think there would be a lot of gray area if it is the former.

NewbE

So now illegal apartment rentals in Paris are compared to the Holocaust.

Later, gators! This thread has officially jumped the shark.

MmePerdu

I think the descent into insults is unnecessary. And boring in the extreme. There are much more interesting ways by which we can express our displeasure, if able.

kerouac

<i>But how do they define vacant?</i>

The easiest ones to catch are completely empty buildings -- of which there are hundreds in Paris -- often owned by banks or insurance companies. They like to just hold on to them as property values rise. And there are thousands of other apartments that have just been sitting empty for 20 or 30 or 40 years that are owned by people who are too rich to care. People like the king of Saudi Arabia own properties that were bought half a century ago and just occupied once on a whim. Of course apartments like that are not likely to ever come on the market for normal people unless they are requisitioned and broken down into half a dozen smaller apartments. There is a law on the books for that, too, but the government has never really dared to use it.

MmePerdu

"Included in the regulation is all of Paris (or that area within the périphérique) as well as most of the surrounding suburbs."

Does anyone know of a definitive geographical guide to the area covered?

Interesting about ground floor apartments. That may be a solution if the geographic limits aren't forthcoming.

WoinParis

On my side. Interesting concept.

And yes people not bothering about any law except their wallet and rejecting any responsibility for their actions were a gift for the nazi recruiters.

And it may well start with not bothering to look at the moral side of renting an illegal apartment.

Like it or not. And this discussion has been held several times the last weeks.

Befehl ist Befehl was used as an excuse for not using one's conscience.
I don't know and it is the authorities' problem is mirroring that line of defense.

marvelousmouse

The bank owning apartments I could see. I understand that holiday homes might sit empty but there is no way to enforce that (or even, I would think, to catch that). But this board seems to talk about people using platforms like Airbnb to rent out their apartments (and inconveniencing their neighbors) a lot- and I'm not following how fhe law actually applies there. If there is an individual's name on the lease, the property is not technically vacant...

Woinparis- I am fairly sure now you are just throwing out random phrases to start a fight. But yes. I am not "for" breaking the law. I don't agree with renting out one's apartment and then dodging taxes the apply to having done so. But unwittingly renting an unlicensed apartment is a far cry from allowing racially motivated persecution and mass murder of millions of people. (Not to mention illogical as you are arguing in the case of Paris that one should follow the law and in the other case it was morally right to break/critique the law).

fuzzbucket

If someone's name is on the lease, but this "someone" does not actually live in the apartment at least 8 months out of the year, it is an illegal sublet. There are many of them in Paris, most often rented by corporations with managers who handle the property.

The regulations of the co-propriete take precedence over City laws. The regulations are handed over when someone buys an apartment, and it is clear for all to see. Most apartment buildings have begun to change the regulations, due to problems caused by too many visitors.

There is not a geographical list per se, but any communes which have a population of less than 200,000 citizens are basically allowed to have short-term rentals, if the co-propriete permits it and if the landlord allows the tenant to sublet.

Envierges

I don't know how this fits in the discussion but . . . .in my building an apartment has been vacant for 20 years as the resolution of the inheritance has dragged. As owners, we've had to bear the charges and now with the estate finally settled, because of the delay in this settlement, can only recover a minimal amount of what we've spent on the charges. Certainly, I do not understand but that's the way it is.

Tonight on France 2, a special on how the new rent ceiling laws are being ignored. Again, a limited body of folks to pursue the evildoers.

Years ago, I read an article stating that at any one time in Paris 10 percent of apartments are empty . . .not waiting for renters, but off the market for all the reasons stated above. A squat owned by an insurance company on Bolivar was finally appropriated by the city and is now undergoing a redo.

MmePerdu

"...any communes which have a population of less than 200,000 citizens are basically allowed to have short-term rentals, if the co-propriete permits it and if the landlord allows..."

Thanks for the information and I suspect it's the extent of what's available on the subject.

However, for those inclined to follow the law, it's far from helpful for defining areas outside central Paris, should we be willing to go farther afield in an attempt to rent a legal apartment.

I found this from 2014: "It will apply in large cities (more than 200,000 residents) plus the and in around 28 zones tendues (towns with more than 50,000 residents where housing is in short supply). However, mayors in these 28 towns must decide to apply the new law and it is thought will not do so." http://www.connexionfrance.com/new-h...s-article.html

So, if the 2014 information is still accurate, what fuzzbucket says may have more exceptions than otherwise, those "departments round Paris", "the vast majority" of which will chose not to adopt the regulation.

So still no real light shed on the issue regarding where, outside the Peripherique, one might assume their proposed rental apartment is a legal rental.

MmePerdu

The complete quote, missing a few words above, "departments round Paris":

"It will apply in large cities (more than 200,000 residents) plus the departments round Paris and in around 28 zones tendues (towns with more than 50,000 residents where housing is in short supply). However, mayors in these 28 towns must decide to apply the new law and it is thought the vast majority will not do so."