British Tourists in the US
Jul 25th, 2008, 04:09 PM
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British Tourists in the US
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/food/200...sh_people.html
Interesting article....take the trouble to read through some of the comment, mostly from Brits, too.
Interesting article....take the trouble to read through some of the comment, mostly from Brits, too.
Jul 25th, 2008, 04:31 PM
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First, I'm not a waiter and I know I'll get slammed here for my opinion.
I've been saying this for years. Why are we such a tipping society? Why can't restaurants, hotels (bellmen and housekeeping), taxi drivers, hair dressers, etc., charge an adequate amount, and let tips be for extraordinary service? Isn't that the idea of tipping? Everyone should receive a fair amount for whatever job he or she performs, but that should fall on the employer. Something is really wrong with our system.
Okay, go ahead and yell at me.
I've been saying this for years. Why are we such a tipping society? Why can't restaurants, hotels (bellmen and housekeeping), taxi drivers, hair dressers, etc., charge an adequate amount, and let tips be for extraordinary service? Isn't that the idea of tipping? Everyone should receive a fair amount for whatever job he or she performs, but that should fall on the employer. Something is really wrong with our system.
Okay, go ahead and yell at me.
Jul 25th, 2008, 04:40 PM
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Since many service industries are of a seasonal nature, they probably can't afford to pay the type of wages that would be sufficient without tips. They would probably have to hire fewer employees, so I'm not sure how that would help.
Jul 25th, 2008, 04:48 PM
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The US government has determined a separate and lower minimum wage for service jobs such as waiters. Many employers pay minimum wage (retail stores, super markets, etc.). Service employers follow that rule also but they pay less as determined by the government.
Jul 25th, 2008, 05:28 PM
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It doesn;t really matter why - it just is.
And if we didn't tip the prices would all have to be higher. So - the cost is the same either way - and this way the tip goes to the wait staff - as opposed to being pocketed by the owner.
And it's europeans in general - since they don;t come from a tipping society, many just don;t get it - that they are taking money out of the pockets of the staff. (When you land at the NYC airports the info sheet that the taxi dispatcher gives you explain about tipping the driver - since so many foreign visitors just don;t have the concept.)
And for those who are wondering - since wait staff, hotel service staff and cab drivers earn such minimal salaries the proper tipping is:
wait staff - 15% minimum, 20% nicer and up for great service
taxis similar - esp if you have the driver hauling big bags in and out of his trunk
bell staff - a minimum of $2 - more for more bags or in an upscale hotel
You also tip doormen who actually put you in a cab, valets who bring your car - and really anyone who does a personal service.
If you don;t believe in tipping that's you right. But- then please eat only in self-service fast food places - so you don;t reduce the income or very hard working people.
And if we didn't tip the prices would all have to be higher. So - the cost is the same either way - and this way the tip goes to the wait staff - as opposed to being pocketed by the owner.
And it's europeans in general - since they don;t come from a tipping society, many just don;t get it - that they are taking money out of the pockets of the staff. (When you land at the NYC airports the info sheet that the taxi dispatcher gives you explain about tipping the driver - since so many foreign visitors just don;t have the concept.)
And for those who are wondering - since wait staff, hotel service staff and cab drivers earn such minimal salaries the proper tipping is:
wait staff - 15% minimum, 20% nicer and up for great service
taxis similar - esp if you have the driver hauling big bags in and out of his trunk
bell staff - a minimum of $2 - more for more bags or in an upscale hotel
You also tip doormen who actually put you in a cab, valets who bring your car - and really anyone who does a personal service.
If you don;t believe in tipping that's you right. But- then please eat only in self-service fast food places - so you don;t reduce the income or very hard working people.
Jul 25th, 2008, 06:17 PM
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It just is is a good response. When my husband and I travel to Europe, we tend to tip genrously there also. Though I think it is included with the price of the meal. It just seems fair to tip people who are serving you food or helping you in any personal way to thank them with a tip. These people are not making huge--maybe not even adequate wages. When we return to restauants, the wait staff know who we are, and we are treated like royalty. Just a thought.
Jul 25th, 2008, 06:31 PM
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nametaken,
I don't know where you go in Europe, but in Italy it is often the case in restaurants that the wait staff owns the restaurant, the service charge is included in the bill, and it is considered condescending to tip on top of that, as if you thought you were royalty dispensing coins.
But the post is really directed at foreigners visiting the U.S. who may not understand the poor and outmoded policy of allowing business to pay employees a non-living wage for full-time work as an "incentive" to get them to perform their job for extra change.
With the favorable position of the euro and pound, generous tipping is in order!
I don't know where you go in Europe, but in Italy it is often the case in restaurants that the wait staff owns the restaurant, the service charge is included in the bill, and it is considered condescending to tip on top of that, as if you thought you were royalty dispensing coins.
But the post is really directed at foreigners visiting the U.S. who may not understand the poor and outmoded policy of allowing business to pay employees a non-living wage for full-time work as an "incentive" to get them to perform their job for extra change.
With the favorable position of the euro and pound, generous tipping is in order!
Jul 25th, 2008, 07:11 PM
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nametaken: you really do personify the uninformed traveler when you say that "these people" aren't well compensated.
There is a reason there is a 15% service charge included in most restaurant bills in Europe. And there is a reason European waiters for the most part aren't of the "Hi, my name is Todd, and I'll be your server tonight" variety. Waiting is a PROFESSION in Europe. They ARE paid well. And when you throw dollars at them the way you would in the USA, you become a subject of potential derision for "throwing money around," the way only an American would, y'know?
I would respectfully suggest you conform to the norms of the countries you are visiting in this respect.
There is a reason there is a 15% service charge included in most restaurant bills in Europe. And there is a reason European waiters for the most part aren't of the "Hi, my name is Todd, and I'll be your server tonight" variety. Waiting is a PROFESSION in Europe. They ARE paid well. And when you throw dollars at them the way you would in the USA, you become a subject of potential derision for "throwing money around," the way only an American would, y'know?
I would respectfully suggest you conform to the norms of the countries you are visiting in this respect.
Jul 25th, 2008, 09:05 PM
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"When my husband and I travel to Europe, we tend to tip genrously there also"
If you believe you've got the right to bring your filthy foreign habits over here, you must also believe we've got every right to take our filthy foreign habits over to your benighted country.
Who knows? Our doing so might actually persuade the drugged-up beggars you tolerate as waiters to do their jobs properly.
If you believe you've got the right to bring your filthy foreign habits over here, you must also believe we've got every right to take our filthy foreign habits over to your benighted country.
Who knows? Our doing so might actually persuade the drugged-up beggars you tolerate as waiters to do their jobs properly.
Jul 25th, 2008, 09:29 PM
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With all due respect nametaken, when in Rome...
At least in Italy it is not appreciated when Americans tip a lot. First of all it sets a procedure that Italians do not want to see happen in their country. That I know as a fact as I have numerous Italian friends and sort of in-laws in Italy. I so agree with zeppole and St.Cirq's comments. As far as flanneruk's post, well I won't post my thoughts regarding his vile comments regarding our service people.
But anyway, I do so wish that our service people in the US were paid a proper wage and that tipping would cease. But that is not going to happen.
At least in Italy it is not appreciated when Americans tip a lot. First of all it sets a procedure that Italians do not want to see happen in their country. That I know as a fact as I have numerous Italian friends and sort of in-laws in Italy. I so agree with zeppole and St.Cirq's comments. As far as flanneruk's post, well I won't post my thoughts regarding his vile comments regarding our service people.
But anyway, I do so wish that our service people in the US were paid a proper wage and that tipping would cease. But that is not going to happen.
Jul 25th, 2008, 09:42 PM
#11
nametaken: "<i>When my husband and I travel to Europe, we tend to tip genrously there also. . . . . . . These people are not making huge--maybe not even adequate wages.</i>"
Just because that's the way things are done in the States doesn't have any relevance in Europe. Do you also insist on doing other things "like back home"?
As LoveItaly says "When in Rome . . . . . "
Just because that's the way things are done in the States doesn't have any relevance in Europe. Do you also insist on doing other things "like back home"?
As LoveItaly says "When in Rome . . . . . "
Jul 25th, 2008, 09:57 PM
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Waiters (and many other service providers) in the USA are paid a proper wage because the tip is part of their wages.
Actually, I bet you would find that most who do this type of work prefer the tipping system for one simple reason...
It is called the Internal Revenue Service, the friendly devils who try to collect the proper amount of income taxes from Americans in our "voluntary" tax system.
Of course the "voluntary" tax system is based on people volunteering the amount of income they have. We are such honest people, us Americans, we wouldn't think twice of not reporting our income (just like we wouldn't think twice of entering say an underground or a bus without paying the proper fare so no iron gates are necessary to insert tickets...just get on the train or bus and go)...oh you mean people would not report their income, so I guess we have to set up a system where employers report wages to the government. Also, employers are subject to paying a certain amount of taxes on behalf of their employees for purposes of social security (later in life), and to various states for umemployment insurance to allow states to pay benefits to those who are unemployed.
I don't want to go through the whole system other than to say that employees who receive tips, are supposed to report the amount of their tips to their employers who then file forms with the Internal Revenue Service and also withhold taxes based on the amount reported.
But guess what...in many studies, the IRS found that some were very very much underreporting the amount of their tips so the IRS set up a system that employers must follow to allocate estimated tip income that is not properly reported to individual employees...who then either are forced to report these to the IRS or risk being audited and having to show all sorts of documentation to show they did not receive these tips.
Many, especially those who work in high end restaurants, do very very well under the current system and do not feel as if they are being cheated by low wages. Is the Australian system better where there is next to no tipping? Or the British system where there is some tipping in restaurants albeit at a lower rate? Who really knows. The only point of the article and what is being said was not to demean anybody with a different system but rather it was somewhat informational. I take it many Brits feel 10% is a proper tip because that is the proper tip, I assume, in the UK when service is not included. I check that very carefully on the menu when I go to a British restaurant..I frequent a chain of restaurants called Wagamama in London..I know their menu says ervice is not included so I tip 10%. If my British friends, such as flanneruk will tell me that the custom is not to tip at all, I will see the error of my ways and from now on never tip in a London restaurant.
But I do agree with the sentiment that many Americans, taking it back the opposite way, do overtip and while sometimes it is very much appreciated, other times some of the waiters feel insulted. I have learned from experience that a bar tender in a British pub is not tipped although you can buy him or her a drink.
Another area of complaint is that in American resturants on menus, generally local sales taxes are not included in the price of a meal...and restaurant owners do pull little things such as on restaurant checks, not listing the amount of tax separately and clearly...so a $30 meal in a NYC restaurant has an 8.375% tax added on which would mean the check will list the entree at $32.70 not $30 + $2.70 in taxes...and then hope you will use the higher figure to calculate the "proper" tip...see it happen all the time...then of course, there are restaurants that add the tip to the bill as a "courtesy"...using the higher figure naturally...and I have had to tell them in no uncertain terms to remove the tip and I will add the tip to the credit card receipt (they generally do but in some places, there is a disclaimer on the menu that for parties say of 6 or more, an automatic service charge will be included...of course in that case, you don't tip..I believe this practice was fought in court and I don't remember the outcome).
Finally, I have seen an increase in "normal" tips in my lifetime. I don't care what anybody says...an appropriate tip at an American restaurant, upscale or not, is 15%. If service is exceptional, you can raise it to 20% but that, to me is optional and I never have..15% is appropriate and unless they don't serve me properly, 15% is what they get. I resent being told the norm is 20%...it most assuredly is not.
Actually, I bet you would find that most who do this type of work prefer the tipping system for one simple reason...
It is called the Internal Revenue Service, the friendly devils who try to collect the proper amount of income taxes from Americans in our "voluntary" tax system.
Of course the "voluntary" tax system is based on people volunteering the amount of income they have. We are such honest people, us Americans, we wouldn't think twice of not reporting our income (just like we wouldn't think twice of entering say an underground or a bus without paying the proper fare so no iron gates are necessary to insert tickets...just get on the train or bus and go)...oh you mean people would not report their income, so I guess we have to set up a system where employers report wages to the government. Also, employers are subject to paying a certain amount of taxes on behalf of their employees for purposes of social security (later in life), and to various states for umemployment insurance to allow states to pay benefits to those who are unemployed.
I don't want to go through the whole system other than to say that employees who receive tips, are supposed to report the amount of their tips to their employers who then file forms with the Internal Revenue Service and also withhold taxes based on the amount reported.
But guess what...in many studies, the IRS found that some were very very much underreporting the amount of their tips so the IRS set up a system that employers must follow to allocate estimated tip income that is not properly reported to individual employees...who then either are forced to report these to the IRS or risk being audited and having to show all sorts of documentation to show they did not receive these tips.
Many, especially those who work in high end restaurants, do very very well under the current system and do not feel as if they are being cheated by low wages. Is the Australian system better where there is next to no tipping? Or the British system where there is some tipping in restaurants albeit at a lower rate? Who really knows. The only point of the article and what is being said was not to demean anybody with a different system but rather it was somewhat informational. I take it many Brits feel 10% is a proper tip because that is the proper tip, I assume, in the UK when service is not included. I check that very carefully on the menu when I go to a British restaurant..I frequent a chain of restaurants called Wagamama in London..I know their menu says ervice is not included so I tip 10%. If my British friends, such as flanneruk will tell me that the custom is not to tip at all, I will see the error of my ways and from now on never tip in a London restaurant.
But I do agree with the sentiment that many Americans, taking it back the opposite way, do overtip and while sometimes it is very much appreciated, other times some of the waiters feel insulted. I have learned from experience that a bar tender in a British pub is not tipped although you can buy him or her a drink.
Another area of complaint is that in American resturants on menus, generally local sales taxes are not included in the price of a meal...and restaurant owners do pull little things such as on restaurant checks, not listing the amount of tax separately and clearly...so a $30 meal in a NYC restaurant has an 8.375% tax added on which would mean the check will list the entree at $32.70 not $30 + $2.70 in taxes...and then hope you will use the higher figure to calculate the "proper" tip...see it happen all the time...then of course, there are restaurants that add the tip to the bill as a "courtesy"...using the higher figure naturally...and I have had to tell them in no uncertain terms to remove the tip and I will add the tip to the credit card receipt (they generally do but in some places, there is a disclaimer on the menu that for parties say of 6 or more, an automatic service charge will be included...of course in that case, you don't tip..I believe this practice was fought in court and I don't remember the outcome).
Finally, I have seen an increase in "normal" tips in my lifetime. I don't care what anybody says...an appropriate tip at an American restaurant, upscale or not, is 15%. If service is exceptional, you can raise it to 20% but that, to me is optional and I never have..15% is appropriate and unless they don't serve me properly, 15% is what they get. I resent being told the norm is 20%...it most assuredly is not.
Jul 25th, 2008, 11:09 PM
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If you knew how little German waiters make, you'd not complain about leaving the usual 10%. If you'd make 5.50€ to 7€ an hour would you not expect a tip?
You make more per hour than they do during their working day. So what...
You make more per hour than they do during their working day. So what...
Jul 26th, 2008, 12:33 AM
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Come to think of it, if European restaurants can say on their menus "service charge (not) included", why can't US restaurants say "our waiters are mostly paid from your tips"?
Jul 26th, 2008, 12:41 AM
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There was one point made that has often occurred to me
I quote: "I'm confused. Is it more difficult for a waiter to bring me a bowl of soup for a fiver than bring me a plate of lobster for fifty quid?"
Percentage of the bill does seem a bit daft, especially as the waiter in the posh restaurant may be paid more anyway.
I quote: "I'm confused. Is it more difficult for a waiter to bring me a bowl of soup for a fiver than bring me a plate of lobster for fifty quid?"
Percentage of the bill does seem a bit daft, especially as the waiter in the posh restaurant may be paid more anyway.
Jul 26th, 2008, 12:44 AM
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What if a government made it the law that customers could pay the restaurant what they liked for the meal as well....?!
Wasn't there a restaurant somewhere that did just that?
Grrr, it's going to annoy me now trying to remember.
I think that most people paid slightly more than they normally would have done
Wasn't there a restaurant somewhere that did just that?
Grrr, it's going to annoy me now trying to remember.
I think that most people paid slightly more than they normally would have done
Jul 26th, 2008, 01:36 AM
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You should know that Germany, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Sweden Italy and Cyprus do not have a legal minimum wage. Also remember that in the UK tips are used to make up to the minimum wage in many of the chain places - Planet Hollywood and more shocking to me at Loch Fyne for instance.
Waitstaff in the Netherlands, over the age of 23 earn at least €8.24 an hour, but at say age 18 they earn €3.75 an hour. Many of them, indeed most of them will have been to college and have a qualification.
Horeca (Hotel/cafe/restaurant)training is hard but surprisingly popular here, and consists of at least three years work/sudy combination.
I have no problem tipping for good service anywhere in the world. I do tip in the US as I know the wages stink, but the service there I always rush rush so they can get more covers and more tips. Sometimes the service is downright terrible, and doesn't deserve any tip, but because of the system you end up tipping anyway. On our last trip, at a nice restaurant, the waitress had no idea how to open a bottle of wine, and asked for assistance. The second waitress was making such a pigs ear of it we refused the bottle and requested a fresh bottle, which my husband opened himself. It was shocking to see. Needless to say the minimum of tip was left on that occasion, and had that been in Europe no tip we would have left none.
Waitstaff in the Netherlands, over the age of 23 earn at least €8.24 an hour, but at say age 18 they earn €3.75 an hour. Many of them, indeed most of them will have been to college and have a qualification.
Horeca (Hotel/cafe/restaurant)training is hard but surprisingly popular here, and consists of at least three years work/sudy combination.
I have no problem tipping for good service anywhere in the world. I do tip in the US as I know the wages stink, but the service there I always rush rush so they can get more covers and more tips. Sometimes the service is downright terrible, and doesn't deserve any tip, but because of the system you end up tipping anyway. On our last trip, at a nice restaurant, the waitress had no idea how to open a bottle of wine, and asked for assistance. The second waitress was making such a pigs ear of it we refused the bottle and requested a fresh bottle, which my husband opened himself. It was shocking to see. Needless to say the minimum of tip was left on that occasion, and had that been in Europe no tip we would have left none.
Jul 26th, 2008, 01:58 AM
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>>>>>
Our doing so might actually persuade the drugged-up beggars you tolerate as waiters to do their jobs properly.
>>>>>
i didn't read all of the comments on the referenced blog but the main post is pretty funny. and it's pretty embarrassing that we can't even adapt to the system when visiting america without whining like babies. pathetic.
it's also embarrassing that flannerilovetheuk seems so enraged. once again taking ourselves far to seriously. these people should have their passports revoked by the queen to raise our image abroad.
Our doing so might actually persuade the drugged-up beggars you tolerate as waiters to do their jobs properly.
>>>>>
i didn't read all of the comments on the referenced blog but the main post is pretty funny. and it's pretty embarrassing that we can't even adapt to the system when visiting america without whining like babies. pathetic.
it's also embarrassing that flannerilovetheuk seems so enraged. once again taking ourselves far to seriously. these people should have their passports revoked by the queen to raise our image abroad.
Jul 26th, 2008, 02:49 AM
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walkinaround wrote: "it's also embarrassing that flannerilovetheuk seems so enraged. once again taking ourselves far to seriously. these people should have their passports revoked by the queen to raise our image abroad."
Insufficient. He can wreak havoc on international relations without going outside his front door. His keyboard should be confiscated.
On second thought, it might be that he has a spare keyboard hidden away: it might be more effective to smash his fingers.
Then, in case he speaks rather than types his thoughts, his tongue should be ripped out.
There. Now isn't the world a better place?
Insufficient. He can wreak havoc on international relations without going outside his front door. His keyboard should be confiscated.
On second thought, it might be that he has a spare keyboard hidden away: it might be more effective to smash his fingers.
Then, in case he speaks rather than types his thoughts, his tongue should be ripped out.
There. Now isn't the world a better place?
