British Tourists in the US
Jul 27th, 2008, 12:26 AM
#41
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nametaken, You are simply wrong about what is appropriate behaviour, and it starts with your assertion that "these people are not making huge--maybe not even adequate wages." In some European countries, they are properly paid and are not dependent on tips. In other European countries they are less well paid, and tipping is customary, but at a level lower than US norms.
They way you write about people who have considerable experience of Europe is offensive. Do you now to propose to gainsay me, a European, about what is appropriate behaviour in Europe?
Your money is your own, and if you want to throw it around willy-nilly to show how enlightened and appreciative you are, feel free to do so. But you should know this: I, who observe local custom (which includes showing a certain style of respect to service staff), have as good a chance of being welcomed back as a return visitor as has the American big tipper. My guess is that I probably get more respect -- although I can't prove that.
They way you write about people who have considerable experience of Europe is offensive. Do you now to propose to gainsay me, a European, about what is appropriate behaviour in Europe?
Your money is your own, and if you want to throw it around willy-nilly to show how enlightened and appreciative you are, feel free to do so. But you should know this: I, who observe local custom (which includes showing a certain style of respect to service staff), have as good a chance of being welcomed back as a return visitor as has the American big tipper. My guess is that I probably get more respect -- although I can't prove that.
Jul 27th, 2008, 02:55 AM
#42
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Nametaken, I don't think anyone was trying to offend you, just point out that your attitude is actually the same as the Brits being complained about in the original article.
You gave the impression that you think the US tipping system is 'better' than the local ones so will continue to use it instead of respecting the local custom. It's no better to deliberately err on the side of over-tipping than it is to deliberately err on the side of under-tipping. It still shows a lack of respect for the way things are done in that country and an imposition of your own countries 'rules'. Your personal feeling about another countries 'rules' are not important. I think the US is mad to tip so much but of course I would do it when I am there.
When in Rome...simple rule to follow and shows respect for the society you are visiting.
You gave the impression that you think the US tipping system is 'better' than the local ones so will continue to use it instead of respecting the local custom. It's no better to deliberately err on the side of over-tipping than it is to deliberately err on the side of under-tipping. It still shows a lack of respect for the way things are done in that country and an imposition of your own countries 'rules'. Your personal feeling about another countries 'rules' are not important. I think the US is mad to tip so much but of course I would do it when I am there.
When in Rome...simple rule to follow and shows respect for the society you are visiting.
Jul 27th, 2008, 03:54 AM
#43
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Padriag wrote:
They way you write about people who have considerable experience of Europe is offensive. Do you now to propose to gainsay me, a European, about what is appropriate behaviour in Europe?
It will be ok, Paddraig. Don't worry.
Nametaken has certainly has a point here and it just bothers people who "say" they disagree with him because they know he is right.
They way you write about people who have considerable experience of Europe is offensive. Do you now to propose to gainsay me, a European, about what is appropriate behaviour in Europe?
It will be ok, Paddraig. Don't worry.
Nametaken has certainly has a point here and it just bothers people who "say" they disagree with him because they know he is right.
Jul 27th, 2008, 04:06 AM
#44
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luvtotravel
There is no objective absolute index of 'adequate', minimum wage laws notwithstanding.
I have met very few people who felt they were being paid (in either money or in services rendered) in accordance with what they felt were their abilities or worth.
Consider that most people when polled consider themselves above-average drivers. This tells you a lot about how people view themselves versus the market.
Suppose you had to pay people who believe they are above-average drivers an amount based on their driving ability: a wage or tip in the case of waiters, a price/revenue in the case of a restaurant owner. Do you think they would be happy with the 'average' that you paid them?
Conversely, suppose you undertake to perform a service for those who believe they are above-average drivers. Do you think those passengers, overall, will believe you are giving them as good a service as what they believe they could do themselves? (Hint: look at the average post about airlines: do you not get the impression that most people think they could run an airline, not just run a restaurant or be a waiter, better than those who actually do?)
Do you still think there's such a thing as a universal absolute conception of 'adequate'?
There is no objective absolute index of 'adequate', minimum wage laws notwithstanding.
I have met very few people who felt they were being paid (in either money or in services rendered) in accordance with what they felt were their abilities or worth.
Consider that most people when polled consider themselves above-average drivers. This tells you a lot about how people view themselves versus the market.
Suppose you had to pay people who believe they are above-average drivers an amount based on their driving ability: a wage or tip in the case of waiters, a price/revenue in the case of a restaurant owner. Do you think they would be happy with the 'average' that you paid them?
Conversely, suppose you undertake to perform a service for those who believe they are above-average drivers. Do you think those passengers, overall, will believe you are giving them as good a service as what they believe they could do themselves? (Hint: look at the average post about airlines: do you not get the impression that most people think they could run an airline, not just run a restaurant or be a waiter, better than those who actually do?)
Do you still think there's such a thing as a universal absolute conception of 'adequate'?
Jul 27th, 2008, 04:41 AM
#45
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travelme wrote: "Nametaken has certainly has a point here and it just bothers people who "say" they disagree with him because they know he is right."
Isn't it a great gift to understand what people are thinking better than they themselves understand their thoughts?
[Or is this just another instance of your liking to disagree with me?]
Isn't it a great gift to understand what people are thinking better than they themselves understand their thoughts?
[Or is this just another instance of your liking to disagree with me?]
Jul 27th, 2008, 04:45 AM
#46
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Remember tv show "3rd Rock" when the alien played by John Lithegow is learning about tipping? He piles dollar bills on the table and takes one away whenever the wait person makes a mistake. He took great joy is making her repeat the specials!
I absolutely agree with the "when in Rome...." philosophy. And besides, nobody likes a showoff!
I absolutely agree with the "when in Rome...." philosophy. And besides, nobody likes a showoff!
Jul 27th, 2008, 05:29 AM
#48
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I have only once been chased out of a restaurant and that was in Italy.
We had a favourite little place where we would often go for coffee or a leisurely lunch.
One day we decided to go to a shop across the square where they sold fancy paper goods.
I heard running footsteps and an elderly waitress followed us into the shop and told the owner in voluble Italian that we were good customers of hers and that he had to give us a good deal.
He asked me if I had understood all that and when I said yes, he said that he wouldn't dare cheat us in case she heard about it.
It caused great hilarity in the shop.
We had a favourite little place where we would often go for coffee or a leisurely lunch.
One day we decided to go to a shop across the square where they sold fancy paper goods.
I heard running footsteps and an elderly waitress followed us into the shop and told the owner in voluble Italian that we were good customers of hers and that he had to give us a good deal.
He asked me if I had understood all that and when I said yes, he said that he wouldn't dare cheat us in case she heard about it.
It caused great hilarity in the shop.
Jul 27th, 2008, 05:34 AM
#49
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Brits,
Just cough up the dough. We cough up the dough when we pay your ridiculous prices in the UK, so it's only fair that you pay the minimum 15% tip in the US for average service and bump it up to 20%+ for good service. If you are truly civilized as you claim, that is what you have to do.
Just cough up the dough. We cough up the dough when we pay your ridiculous prices in the UK, so it's only fair that you pay the minimum 15% tip in the US for average service and bump it up to 20%+ for good service. If you are truly civilized as you claim, that is what you have to do.
Jul 27th, 2008, 05:39 AM
#50
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When I was in South Beach, FL, I noticed that a 15% tip was automatically added to every bill. I asked the waitress, and she mentioned that they started adding that in automatically because all those French and British tourists never tip right and this remedied the problem.
Jul 27th, 2008, 05:43 AM
#51
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I agree wholeheartedly with the last poster. If you "stiff" the waiter, you will pay dearly with insults and threats. No doubt about it. So don't attempt it even once.
Meal tax differs from state to state and in Massachusetts we have a small 5% meal tax. Try going to Canada and pay 15% + the tip. You end up paying a whopping 30% on your meal. As Celine Dion sings "and thats the way it is.."
Seriously, when in Rome....
Meal tax differs from state to state and in Massachusetts we have a small 5% meal tax. Try going to Canada and pay 15% + the tip. You end up paying a whopping 30% on your meal. As Celine Dion sings "and thats the way it is.."
Seriously, when in Rome....
Jul 27th, 2008, 09:08 AM
#52
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<<< Since many service industries are of a seasonal nature, they probably can't afford to pay the type of wages that would be sufficient without tips. They would probably have to hire fewer employees, so I'm not sure how that would help. >>>
Care to explain that as it doesn't make any sense.
If you didn't have a tip culture then you'd be paying a higher rate but the customer would be paying exactly the same as they were before once you add the tip on. Net result - no change
Care to explain that as it doesn't make any sense.
If you didn't have a tip culture then you'd be paying a higher rate but the customer would be paying exactly the same as they were before once you add the tip on. Net result - no change
Jul 27th, 2008, 09:50 AM
#53
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I will continue to travel to Europe. I will also leave a small tip for good service at my discretion. I do not need or appreciate many of the helpful suggestions some of you think you are entitled to make. If you want to be the proper police, go for it.
Jul 27th, 2008, 09:55 AM
#54
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I don't think it's even the 'cultural differences' or 'each to their own opinion' vein to the thread that bothers me. It's the fact that people think it's ok to slag off some visitors for being ungenerous with tips, yet not have the slightest concern about the inherent meanness in their own wage system that makes tipping necessary in the first place.
Jul 27th, 2008, 10:28 AM
#55
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I keep hearing the same thing...the tipping system is unfair to the workers blah blah blah why should we pay the workers' wages blah blah blah.....
You do anyway but indirectly as opposed to directly and again, as I said earlier, by and large the waiters in the system don't have a problem with it..many do very well..many use it as a second source of income and are happy whatever they take home..
It's not going to change so stop whining about it. And I don't think other systems are necessarily better. At least under this sytem, if the service is not what it should be you can hit em where it hurts...in the pocket book.
You do anyway but indirectly as opposed to directly and again, as I said earlier, by and large the waiters in the system don't have a problem with it..many do very well..many use it as a second source of income and are happy whatever they take home..
It's not going to change so stop whining about it. And I don't think other systems are necessarily better. At least under this sytem, if the service is not what it should be you can hit em where it hurts...in the pocket book.
Jul 27th, 2008, 10:45 AM
#56
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Predators? Well, THAT's a stretch, LOL!
Nametaken, sorry, but you brought the comments on yourself when YOU hinted at your own snobbery about throwing money around needlessly and claiming that European wait staff might not even make adequate wages. Sorry if there are people on Fodors who live in Europe or own homes there and actually have some broad familiarity with customs there - I guess we should be ashamed of our experience?
Anyway, I was thinking about this thread last night, and it dawned on me that this is a classic example of why there are so many Americans on Fodors all the time who are worried about their appearance, their manners, their general comportment, while visiting Europe - and why European readers always seem to scratch their heads and wonder why, and point out that Europeans don't worry about this stuff when they come to the USA.
It's because they do not want to be seen engaging in behavior like this that displays at best a certain ignorance and at worst a total disregard for what the norms are in the places they are visiting. AND maybe it's a false perception, but it's a perception nonetheless, that Americans seem to do these things (and then defend themselves vigorously on message boards and elsewhere) more often than Europeans do. Perhaps because Europeans have far more experience in general with traveling among different cultures.
Nametaken, sorry, but you brought the comments on yourself when YOU hinted at your own snobbery about throwing money around needlessly and claiming that European wait staff might not even make adequate wages. Sorry if there are people on Fodors who live in Europe or own homes there and actually have some broad familiarity with customs there - I guess we should be ashamed of our experience?
Anyway, I was thinking about this thread last night, and it dawned on me that this is a classic example of why there are so many Americans on Fodors all the time who are worried about their appearance, their manners, their general comportment, while visiting Europe - and why European readers always seem to scratch their heads and wonder why, and point out that Europeans don't worry about this stuff when they come to the USA.
It's because they do not want to be seen engaging in behavior like this that displays at best a certain ignorance and at worst a total disregard for what the norms are in the places they are visiting. AND maybe it's a false perception, but it's a perception nonetheless, that Americans seem to do these things (and then defend themselves vigorously on message boards and elsewhere) more often than Europeans do. Perhaps because Europeans have far more experience in general with traveling among different cultures.
Jul 27th, 2008, 10:59 AM
#57
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I've never seen a thread on tipping in any forum that didn't wind up reflecting the general dissatisfaction with the American system, the defects of which have been amply demonstrated here. The only people I've ever personally known who like the system are waiters and waitresses, who admit that they like it because they make so much money (usually), and because getting a good tip makes them feel good. As a non-waiter, I would much prefer to pay more for my meal and not to worry about my server making a decent income, Therefore, I would rather see the French system spread over here than see the American system spread there and to the rest of Europe.
Jul 27th, 2008, 11:18 AM
#58
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nametaken wrote: "When my husband and I travel to Europe, we tend to tip genrously there also." and, after much discussion ensued, then wrote: "I will also leave a small tip for good service at my discretion."
So which is it, then?
So which is it, then?
Jul 27th, 2008, 06:40 PM
#60
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I'm flattered, St. Cirq, that you believe that Americans are overly anxious about respecting local customs than are many Europeans when traveling abroad. One might consider that attitude as indicative of sensitivity and respect for local ways, which is more than the British tourists described by the author of the original article bother to display.
