Ahem. Another person who has no idea what a troll is. Trolls made up outrageous stories, then come back to fan the flames and keep the thread going. The key is that the whole thread is based on a lie.
Eric was just whining. Very different from trolling.
Eric was just whining. Very different from trolling.
I don't know. Trolls are things that live under bridges where they don't have to deal with screaming children, fat people, lazy people, tall people, short people, etc...Sounds like a lot of "people" here are really trolls who ventured out from under their respective bridges for one day and were shocked at what they saw.
Guest
Statistical fact: The populations who are most likely to strike their children as a form of discipline are also the populations with the highest incidence of violent crime.
I spanked my diaper-clad toddler a very few times before he could comprehend the more sophisticated forms of discipline. He was struck WITH the diaper on, and not hard enough to actually hurt -- just noise and my sharp words. Once he understood, "if you do that again, you will be put in your room," or "if you touch that, I will take away your toy," I usually could manage with a really dirty look at him.
There is no substitute for saying something ONCE with a promise/threat of the consequence, and then following through -- making good on that threat. Consistency and firmness and a no-nonsense approach do a whole lot more to civilize a kid than striking him/her.
Taking the door off the hinges is a great example. It takes work and imagination to figure out what consequence will mean the most to a kid, but it's worth it.
In a restaurant, you have to be willing to give up your own meal to follow through on a threat like "stop that this instant or you will leave the table and no dessert." Once a child knows you mean business and won't ignore his/her attempts to test the limits, things get a lot more civilized.
A lot of parents are clueless about this, but the ones who "give 'em a smack" are teaching a really stupid lesson instead of teaching them how to behave like civilized beings.
I spanked my diaper-clad toddler a very few times before he could comprehend the more sophisticated forms of discipline. He was struck WITH the diaper on, and not hard enough to actually hurt -- just noise and my sharp words. Once he understood, "if you do that again, you will be put in your room," or "if you touch that, I will take away your toy," I usually could manage with a really dirty look at him.
There is no substitute for saying something ONCE with a promise/threat of the consequence, and then following through -- making good on that threat. Consistency and firmness and a no-nonsense approach do a whole lot more to civilize a kid than striking him/her.
Taking the door off the hinges is a great example. It takes work and imagination to figure out what consequence will mean the most to a kid, but it's worth it.
In a restaurant, you have to be willing to give up your own meal to follow through on a threat like "stop that this instant or you will leave the table and no dessert." Once a child knows you mean business and won't ignore his/her attempts to test the limits, things get a lot more civilized.
A lot of parents are clueless about this, but the ones who "give 'em a smack" are teaching a really stupid lesson instead of teaching them how to behave like civilized beings.
Violence/Disclipline,
What statistics are you citing?
I will agree that spanking should not be used consistently and should not be used until other methods of discipline are exhausted. However, I don't think that judicious spanking in dire circumstances will create a deviant monster inclined to violence.
Withholding toys or sweets could work on a child initially, but i've also seen that technique eventually transition into children extorting toys and sweets from their parents just for behaving (especially when a child gets older). I often wonder if the people who have the most unruly, spoiled children are the ones have created a pattern of pleading, cajoling, and bribing rather than putting their foot down, asserting their authority at an early age in the child's life, and then backing that up if needed.
Just a thought.
What statistics are you citing?
I will agree that spanking should not be used consistently and should not be used until other methods of discipline are exhausted. However, I don't think that judicious spanking in dire circumstances will create a deviant monster inclined to violence.
Withholding toys or sweets could work on a child initially, but i've also seen that technique eventually transition into children extorting toys and sweets from their parents just for behaving (especially when a child gets older). I often wonder if the people who have the most unruly, spoiled children are the ones have created a pattern of pleading, cajoling, and bribing rather than putting their foot down, asserting their authority at an early age in the child's life, and then backing that up if needed.
Just a thought.
Guest
I was waiting for someone like Violence to respond! For your information, I don't not strike my children and neither did my parents. Once was enough for me, as was the case for my children. They were rapped on the bottom with a wooden spoon when they were young and I haven't had to repeat the incident since. The mere threat of the "wooden spoon" does miracles. As for removing the door from it's hinge, my kids would have been thrilled. They HATE to have their door shut!
If my children misbehaved in a restaurant I wouldn't have even warned them about missing dessert. They would have been taken out of the restaurant immediately before the warning. FYI, My husband and I have complimented numerous times on their good behavior.
If you could see how well-behaved and polite my children are you would feel foolish for making your ridiculous comments. My brother and sister in law are the type of parents who always reasoned with their children and wouldn't dream of raising their voices to them let alone use a spoon on them. Well guess whose kids have absolutely no respect for them and get into trouble? Not mine. So go ahead and spout your "statistics". I have all the proof I need at home of how very NOT stupid my parenting lessons have proven to be. By the way, are you a parent? If the answer is no then you don't have any right to even comment on the subject.
If my children misbehaved in a restaurant I wouldn't have even warned them about missing dessert. They would have been taken out of the restaurant immediately before the warning. FYI, My husband and I have complimented numerous times on their good behavior.
If you could see how well-behaved and polite my children are you would feel foolish for making your ridiculous comments. My brother and sister in law are the type of parents who always reasoned with their children and wouldn't dream of raising their voices to them let alone use a spoon on them. Well guess whose kids have absolutely no respect for them and get into trouble? Not mine. So go ahead and spout your "statistics". I have all the proof I need at home of how very NOT stupid my parenting lessons have proven to be. By the way, are you a parent? If the answer is no then you don't have any right to even comment on the subject.
Guest
Violence, I re-read your post and apparently you are a parent. Good luck with your parenting techniques and I hope your children turn out as well as mine have!
I eat out at nice restaurants every weekend and can't think of any time I was really disturbed or annoyed by young, misbehaved children out late at night for fancy dining. Is this really something that happens frequently enough to really be such a sore spot for some of you? (And no, I do not have children.) What DOES frequently disturb the enjoyment of a nice, gourmet meal is an ignorant adult who thinks fine cuisine will taste better with a mouthful of cigarette smoke. And it doesn't matter which section you're in, smoke travels. Why not lay off the kiddies, adults can be a much large pain in the ***.
to the poster above, are you one of those people eric was ranting about? someone who doesn't realize their kid is bothering others? your kid sounds pretty complacent and withdrawn if one "no!" and a threat to take away dessert settles him down for the rest of the night.
I don't understand why parents continue to sit at the table in a restaurant while their children are screaming and crying. Can someone please tell me why they don't get up and go to the restroom, outside or HOME. I can't imagine why they think everyone in the restaurant wants to listen to their little darlings.
Guest
"Give'em a smack": On the one hand, I think you and I agree on one thing: having administered corporal punishment just once when a child is young should be enough to set up a threat that one should never have to make "good" on again. But it's unnecessary and maybe harmful if that physical punishment is meant to be really painful and administered in an explosion of retributive anger. That's why god made diapers -- a spanking or two at that stage shows the child you are (still, for a while) bigger than he/she is and by threatening it, you've made it seem like an awful, shameful thing to be profoundly dreaded. I usually whapped the little butt and then picked my son up firmly and whisked him to his room, just to reinforce the idea.
I'm not saying I never had to discipline him again. Of course I did, but the discipline was always "situational" rather than physical, once he knew I wouldn't back down.
The key -- and this is for "aaaaa" also -- is to be absolutely consistent and follow through on any threat you ever make after just ONE warning.
When I hear "Stop it. I said, stop it. Stop it right now. I'm not going to tell you again. Stop it this minute" over and over again, I know I'm seeing a parent who has never had control of the child and never will.
As to how well-behaved my kid turned out to be and whether he's a reasonable person? Three comments, one in pride and two in humility: 1. he's a senior at Harvard with an A/A- average (not that all Harvard students are particularly well-behaved
but I promise you, he is). 2. He was an only child -- it's a heckuva lot easier to keep one child in check than it is two or more. But I was one of 6, and I learned this principle from my parents, who somehow managed to remain consistant about their threats of punishment. We had no doubt. And: 3. To some degree, you get what you are given where kids are concerned; and we were very lucky to get the boy we got, no particular credit to us.
But I agree with everyone who questioned what parents think they're doing keeping kids out late, ignoring bad behavior, etc. They are often tired themselves and trying to do too much at once, but often they just seem like incompetent babysitters doing a bad job looking after someone else's children whom they don't even like very much.
Last word: "Everything I Learned About Parenting I Learned in Dog Obediance School" --- When you say "no," make it stick, every single time. No exceptions, no excuses. And lavish lots of praise and physical affection otherwise.
I'm not saying I never had to discipline him again. Of course I did, but the discipline was always "situational" rather than physical, once he knew I wouldn't back down.
The key -- and this is for "aaaaa" also -- is to be absolutely consistent and follow through on any threat you ever make after just ONE warning.
When I hear "Stop it. I said, stop it. Stop it right now. I'm not going to tell you again. Stop it this minute" over and over again, I know I'm seeing a parent who has never had control of the child and never will.
As to how well-behaved my kid turned out to be and whether he's a reasonable person? Three comments, one in pride and two in humility: 1. he's a senior at Harvard with an A/A- average (not that all Harvard students are particularly well-behaved
but I promise you, he is). 2. He was an only child -- it's a heckuva lot easier to keep one child in check than it is two or more. But I was one of 6, and I learned this principle from my parents, who somehow managed to remain consistant about their threats of punishment. We had no doubt. And: 3. To some degree, you get what you are given where kids are concerned; and we were very lucky to get the boy we got, no particular credit to us. But I agree with everyone who questioned what parents think they're doing keeping kids out late, ignoring bad behavior, etc. They are often tired themselves and trying to do too much at once, but often they just seem like incompetent babysitters doing a bad job looking after someone else's children whom they don't even like very much.
Last word: "Everything I Learned About Parenting I Learned in Dog Obediance School" --- When you say "no," make it stick, every single time. No exceptions, no excuses. And lavish lots of praise and physical affection otherwise.
I think the problem today is that parents don't take responsibility of their children. Recently I was in a public place, where the mother just kept saying to her kid, "If you don't stop, I'm going to spank you." She said that about 6 times and gave the child other various threats like "when we get home...blah, blah, blah". Children know that there is nothing behind those threats and continue to misbehave. When adults step up and take the responsibility of disciplining their children, then we will see better behaved children.
Here is a little tip that I have learned over the years, which has helped somewhat. Call the restaurant that you are planning to dine at and ask them if they have a children's menu. If they say yes, then tell them you do not want to eat where children may disturbe your meal. (Hopefully the restaurant will get the hint eventually). I have found that restaurants which do not have a children's menu often are wonderful places to dine.
Thought of all of you this weekend when our kids were both invited for sleepovers, we suddenly were free to do whatever. Made reservations at the local steakhouse, most entrees $20+. We were being seated right next to a big table with at least two young children, high chair and all. Their bright shiny faces staring at us as we walked by. I took the hostesses arm and softly explained that we were child free for the evening and didn't really want a child experience. She was young and didn't seem to comprehend what that meant but cheerfully steered us to another table in a a different room where we had a splendid evening. I'm so grateful to this board for keeping some of the issues in the forefront of my memory, otherwise I'm sure I would have had an entirely different experience. As I left the restaurant I thanked the hostess and told her we had a wonderful table and a great dinner.
Stop threatening and hitting your kids ... are you stupid? Unthinking? Unfeeling? Just plain boorish? Or were you yourself abused? To those of you who hit, you tell me two things: you're afraid of losing control, and you've run out of ideas; and you're teaching your kids to hit their own kids, and maybe others. Don't tell me about your successes using this physical method ... you've just bought into the end justifying the means. And get some help with your own anger ... hitting is wrong ... just as are verbal threats of phycial abuse. Yes, I have kids, so don't tell me I don't know what I'm saying. This thread sucks ... because it spews out a lot of bad advice, and turns a simple problem of kids misbehaving in public into a potentially more serious one ... like what will occur eventually through imprinting violence on kids. Some of you posters have got it ALL wrong. Ciao
Oh Christ Leone, get off your pulpit. No one here advocates child abuse! They only said they spanked their kids bottoms with a wooden spoon/stick etc. once or twice when they were young! I was struck once as a child and never again since it taught me a lesson and guess what, I'm not a violent criminal, I love and respect my parents and I don't abuse my children physically, mentally or otherwise!
For someone who abhors verbal abuse you certainly spend enough time spouting it on this forum. Now I've got a mantra for you "I am not the all-knowing, wise Leone and everyone does not revere my words". Try repeating this several hundred times until you get it through your narcissistic, preachy, skull that we all don't value your opinion. No wonder you spend so much time here, the people around you probably can't stand to converse with you anymore!
For someone who abhors verbal abuse you certainly spend enough time spouting it on this forum. Now I've got a mantra for you "I am not the all-knowing, wise Leone and everyone does not revere my words". Try repeating this several hundred times until you get it through your narcissistic, preachy, skull that we all don't value your opinion. No wonder you spend so much time here, the people around you probably can't stand to converse with you anymore!
Yea. I agree with hitting children with wooden spoons. Maybe if my bitch of a girlfriend had been hit more often as a child she wouldn't have called the police when I beat her just once. I mean, you gotta lettem know who's boss. Just like you gotta hit your kids, you should also hit your wife. Once should be enough, but you gotta keep doing it until they get it.
Hey, TooTired, you may have a personal point with me ... but you'll never hear some of us advocate hitting kids with a hand, a spoon or anything else. So, you're now fine with some hitting ... as you say, your parents hit you. Perhaps it desensitized you ... afterall you now say it didn't hurt you at all. How'd you feel about it at the time? Did it make a difference to you how few times it occurred? And golly gee, now YOU make no big deal about hitting. Hitting lead to hitting, deny it all you wish. As I said, you may have an issue with me, that's fine, but then again, maybe you have an issue ... especially if you side with those who favor hitting kids to correct them. Stay steamed at me all you wish ... afterall, I'm not a kid. Ciao
You confuse my parner and me, Too tired. You claim not to advocate abuse. And you appear to support parents spanking young kids with a stick to correct behavior. Your parents (your father or your mother?) hit you only once, and that cured you, or so you say. They must have really scared the living crap out of you. What did they use on you? And today you love and respect them. Something about this sounds phony to us.
Guest
Yes, as I said my Dad spanked my bottom with a yardstick once. Yes it scared the crap out of me. Big deal. And yes, I do love and respect them. What about that is so difficult for you to comprehend. It was a common occurence in my generation. Perhaps you grew up in the more lenient "lets be our kids friends instead of their parents" generation. I've seen a lot of those kids grow up as spoiled brats knowing that there where no condsequences for breaking the rules. Personally I could care less how you raise your kids. I've seen the payback from those kids to their parents/best friends. Total disrespect and why not?
And I didn't say it was O.K. to spank young children, but certain people just can't help embellishing and reading into other peoples statements. Try reading a little more carefully. I said one smack on the bottom will usually do the trick when "reasoning" with your preschooler just isn't working (gee I wonder why). FYI Leone, hitting does NOT lead to hitting, you moron. I wrote that I was hit once, I don't think there was anything wrong with it and I have never hit my children - yet. But since they are almost preteens I don't think they are in any danger. I don't appreciate the hysteria and insinuation that I am in some way a child abuser. Now go and do the job you're being paid to do and quit with the extremely heinous accusations. One day if you, Tletia or Leone lose your temper and scream at your child I hope you remember the pompous remarks you made on this Thread. What truly exceptional people you must be! (Either that or someone else is raising your children)
And I didn't say it was O.K. to spank young children, but certain people just can't help embellishing and reading into other peoples statements. Try reading a little more carefully. I said one smack on the bottom will usually do the trick when "reasoning" with your preschooler just isn't working (gee I wonder why). FYI Leone, hitting does NOT lead to hitting, you moron. I wrote that I was hit once, I don't think there was anything wrong with it and I have never hit my children - yet. But since they are almost preteens I don't think they are in any danger. I don't appreciate the hysteria and insinuation that I am in some way a child abuser. Now go and do the job you're being paid to do and quit with the extremely heinous accusations. One day if you, Tletia or Leone lose your temper and scream at your child I hope you remember the pompous remarks you made on this Thread. What truly exceptional people you must be! (Either that or someone else is raising your children)
