Bravo Stilltired!

My husband and I went to an upscale restaurant for Christmas dinner one year, with our 3 year old daughter. Our kids from previous marriages were with their dads. I could feel the icy stares and watched backs go rigid. All for naught! We have always believed that good manners start at home and stay with you out of the home. Our daughter behaved as she would at home, and believe me we had lots of compliments from diners around us. It seems that manners and civil behavior are things of the past, but the fault, of course, is with parents failure to take the time to show the way. Is it any wonder that there are actually classes to teach the very basics of table manners to children? We were in a very nice restaurant on the west coast where we saw 2 young women-about 19-20 actually eating their meal with their fingers-I'm not talking French fries either-baked potato, salad, steak, and vegetable. I could not believe my eyes! The older woman who was with them did not bat an eyelash! I'm off the track a bit, but it surely is the fault of parents who are indifferent to others around them. I might add that I always make a point of it to compliment parents when their kids are well-behaved and mannered.

KUDOS TO "STILLTIRED"!!!

I can't tell you how strongly I agree with you.
Our friends who raise their kids with the "I'm your best friend" attitude are creating little monsters who know no boundaries. Discipline is a very difficult thing to teach properly, but is one of the most important gifts a parent can give a child: a sense of right vs wrong, boundaries, consequences, responsibility....it all ties in with discipline.
And spanking a child is certainly a form of discipline which CAN be positive. Completely depends on the circumstances and presentation.

I fear for the society which will be run by the children of most parents today.

It's amazing how many people equate a "spanking" with a "beating." There must be too many sickos in the world. I agree with the person who quoted the statement "Everything I Learned About Parenting I Learned in Dog Obediance School."

Once the children know that the parents will follow-up with the promised punishment, they're not stupid, they're not interested in the punishment, they will comply (most of the time). When mine are removed, they are so relieved they didn't get a spanking, the effect is the same - appropriate behavior.

Well, it seems I've touched a nerve. LOL, I'm not a moron or any of the other stuff you've called me (well, mom gets pissed with me occasionally too) ... I'm just someone with whom you disagree. It's okay to be civil while you tell me I'm full of horsefeathers. You do not have to like me!! I've raised my own kids, so I have a basis for my opinion. And yes, we are friends. And yes, psychologists working with families will tell you hitting in any form, for whatever the reason, is not the most positive approach you have available to you. Please do not call me arrogant or names for telling you what I have heard these professionsals say. Abuse (and how much hitting or yelling must occur before we label it as such?) can indeed lead to abuse ... for whom do kids copy? What gets imprinted at a young age ... and how does hitting get a pass? The test of whether hitting a child is good technique is not whether the child grows up to love and respect the parents. That might have been the outcome regardless. Somehow there seem to be more than a few on this thread who have a fundamental problem with some of us who have concerns about the old theory of sparing the rod and spoiling the child. If you see a child misbehaving in a restaurant, or you know a family with disobedient kids, what's the basis for your inference that these were kids who were not hit? Do not for a moment deny that's the inference to be drawn from your words. So, I believe it's not appropriate to smack, hit, or whatever, a kid, no matter whether it's once or one hundred times. Now, I'd like to pose a question to you: How many of you endorsing an occasional tap, etc., were hit more than once? How many times did your parents scare you? Oh, excuse me, but am I confused ... I thought parents were supposed to protect, not scare. Okay, lets now lets hurl a few more names in the guise of discussion. Have a nice day, and ciao

X, can you please enlighten me why spanking is not beating? You spank a child by hitting him (either with a hand or a fist or a wooden spoon or a yardsick or a belt). You beat a person by hitting him (either with a hand or a fist or a wooden spoon or a yardstick...) I really don't see any difference except that the person getting hit is a child.

My question has always been "If your spouse doesn't do what you want, do you swat him or her?" Don't tell me your spouse never misbehaves.....If you can't do it to another adult, you most certainly can not do it to a child. Hitting your child is a reflection of your level of frustration and hitting is all about you relieving your own tension. Least you all think I'm perfect, well I'm not. I've made plenty of mistakes and swatting my kids is one. And if you decide to chide me for admonishing you by using the old "how can he criticize me for doing something he did" routine, you can forget it. Every behavior you correct in your child is a direct result of you having learned what is wrong in the first place. Have this be the something "new" you learn today.

Fair enough Leone, you think spanking a child once is wrong, I don't. You believe everything the so-called professionals say, I don't. Were this a court case I'm sure I could find some professionals who would argue that it's perfectly acceptable to rap a childs behind when the situation warrants it. That still doesn't give you the right to imply that the literally millions of wonderful, concerned, possibly strict but loving parents who may have spanked their children once or twice are in some way abusive monsters! Thats tantamount to calling someone who has an occasional glass of wine with dinner an alcoholic.

I agree with you X. As for HUH and the rest of the child spoilers....the difference between spanking a child and beating an adult is that when you spank a child, you are repremanding him/her for doing something wrong. I agree that spanking is the last resort but to equate it to beating and abuse is absurd. I was spanked as a child (15 years ago) and I grew up to love and respect my parents, not fear them. I understand that some children need more than a "No Johnny" or "please stop that". When I go to restaurants or public places where kids misbehave repeatedly after the parents repremand them, the parents look like the idiots not the kids. Nothing bothers me more than to watch a mother speak to a 5 year old as if he's a grown person. Trying to reason with a child a that age will show them that the parents are weak and they can get away with anything.

My wife and I have three kids under five years of age with another on the way. We do have the right to dine out occasionally. That said, we do try to be considerate to our fellow diners. We try to eat at 5 or 5:30 because few people eat out that early. We ask for fries, grilled cheeses or chicken nuggets as soon as we are asked for our drink order. By eating, the kids are kept occupied. We also treat the kids to your less noisy toys, crayons or other writing utensiles. On one occasion, my oldest boy was much too loud and I left the restaurant with the errant boy. The wife doggy-bagged my dinner.

Roger,
thanks for being a polite and considerate parent. Do you spank?

Nope, throughout all the name calling, I've never suggested parents who hit their kids are necessarily monsters. Nor do I believe everything a child professional tells me. But I do know a thing or two about kids in abusive families, and what they have to live with. There are no good boundaries for spanking and hitting, or however one wishes to characterize whatever is being done to discipline kids through other than reasonableness. Lets put it this way ... I'm sure all the parents posting here are good people ... but when push comes to shove, I'd rather be on my side of the issue. Nothing personal, but it's more comfortable for me that way. You never know for sure how a kid will react, feel ultimately after being hit. Sort of hit and miss, you might say. Ciao

Leone, So there is a reason for the overreaction. How do you know for sure that your children were never spanked? Unless you were with them 24/7, how do you know that your wife never lost her cool and spanked one of the little angels in a moment of desperation? Because she said so? It always makes me wonder about people who claim to have such superior parenting skills. As a father perhaps you don't have a clue as to what went on all day while you were away at work (assuming that was the scenerio). I'm not implying that she did, I'm just reminding you to "never say never". And speaking of wives, I've never heard you mention one, only a "partner". Are you perhaps divorced? Any "professional" will tell you that the repurcussions of divorce on a childs psyche is much more damaging than that of a spanking, if you insist on calling in the expert opinions. Just don't condemn others or try to tell others how to parent unless you yourself are a perfect parent. So you "know a thing or two about kids in abusive families". Well then go and help out at shelter rather than wag your finger at this forum. It would be a much better use of your time. (And yes, I have organized a clothing drive for women and children in shelters, mainly to escape domestic abuse and believe me, those abusers are in no way, shape or form to be compared to a parent who may have spanked their child. IMO, to do is irresponsible and reprehensible, so knock it off.)
If you are as wonderful a parent as you must be to tell the rest of us how to parent you should be canonized, or at the very least on the talk show circuit promoting your how-to book on parenting.

Jason, I rarely spank. I prefer to slap that on their upper wrist and explain to them their errors. I think if one spanks too much, the parent isn't gettinig through to the kid and is also just getting their frustrations out on someone who can't spank back. Some corporal punsihment is okay; a lot is a sign of failure.

Here's an idea: stay home and do something constructive, quit procreating and stop eating meat.

Lets not lose our cool, shall we, and go ad hominem. Why suggest I think I'm the perfect parent ... was that what I was saying? I've actually never seen one, but I've seen some very good ones. What we were discussing, I thought (perhaps mistakenly) is whether hitting, spanking, or however you wish to characterize a phsyical aspect to discipline is the best approach. Now why should I divulge my private life, marital status, etc. on this forum ... issues totally unrelated to hitting kids. I've tried to stay a bit neutral, even civil at times, in making the case for something other than the physical. Yes, I've witnessed abusive situations involving kids ... how about a little less attack and a little more imagination. LOL, when people feel strongly about something, I would imagine they wish to see something different than what they witnessed. So, if you believe the physical aspect is called for, then go for it. I think I've said about all I care to say, so I shall leave it to you. But try not to lose your cool so easily ... there will always be some who feel differently, and that doesn't make anyone better than the other. Ciao

Thank god, Leone. Can we assume that you have nothing left to say on this subject and will spare us any more of your insights? Oh, please let it be so because it's beyond played out. And please, no response is necessary or desired.

My kids are adults now,,but we started taking them to nice restaurants as small children. We deliberately went early, before the restaurant was crowded and told our kids that they needed to behave or we would have to leave. We brought small toys with us so they could play quietly at the table. We never allowed them to be loud or cause a disturbance to others.

On the RARE occasion that they did not behave... I took the kids out of the restaurant and my wife asked for our meal to be packed to go. I think this only happened once or twice...but they learned we were serious.

It's not the kids that are the problem..it's the parents

So to all you corporal punishers: Just wondering what you say as you're smacking little Johnny for hitting his little sister. Is it, "No Johnny, it's not nice to hit!" *whack* *whack* -"that is, unless you're much bigger than she is"
Can't understand why someone doesn't see the irony of this?

Justwondering, Wrong board, try preaching at the domestic abuse hotline. You remind me of my sister-in-law who went on and on about how wrong it was to spank a child and how she would NEVER do something as horrific as that. Boy did I laugh the day she smacked her son's hand when he attempted yet again to stick a fork in the electrical outlet! I suppose you would have reasoned with him instead, provided he was listening with the electrical charge coursing through his body. I really should have called DCF on her for being such an abusive mother!