Jim, Who said I didn't like eating in a restaurant with all the variables? I merely stated that the most disturbing and obnoxious diner in the restaurant I was in last weekend was an adult, not a child. And what do you mean people like me should stay home? You mean the kind of people who know how to conduct themselves in a restaurant and insist their children do the same? What an idiotic comment you made.

My 2 cents worth-have yet to see a toddler using a cell phone, to the total annoyance of those sitting nearby, and utter indulgence of the user

I'd rather be annoyed by someone talking on a cell phone that a kid tapping a glass with a spoon for the duration of the meal with parents who are totally oblivious and a room full of diners who are too polite to speak up.

Those obnoxious adults were taken to restaurants by their parents as kids. Never taught how to behave properly in a public place or how to be considerate of others.

Arnie,
Or maybe it is the opposite, the obnoxious adults were never taken to restaurants, when they were kids, by their parents - so they never learned how they were supposed to act properly.

Our society has become rude and obnoxious in general. It's not just the kids and the parents anymore. It's the shouting into cell phones, not giving up a seat on a bus to a pregnant woman, shoving, road rage, air rage, foul language and lack of manners. Maybe manners needs to be taught in schools since parents haven't done a very good job teaching it to their kids.

How true Ginny. Just reminded me of a woman in the grocery store parking lot yesterday. I heard somone screaming and swearing loudly and noticed this woman by herself. First I thought she was a raving lunatic and then I saw her cell phone. She continued reaming her contractor (from what I gathered from her not to be missed conversation) while she walked through the produce aisle, all eyes and ears on her. It was hysterical! Some people really could care less about how they behave in public.

Children should be taken out to help learn how to behave in different environments - But a fine restaurant is NOT the place for the lesson!

SMALL children should not be in fine restaurants, period. They can start learning in places like sizzler or HoJos - but they should still behave and not throw hissy fits - and as they learn the etiquette/rules (yes, rules) they can graduate to more formal places. Once a child is 10 or 11 they should be able to conduct themselves appropriately in any restaurant. --- Assuming the parents know how to behave.

As to lack of concern for others generally, I have a few observations.

1. When I was a kid growing up in the suburbs of Raleigh NC (I am 40 now, you do the math), my friends and I were much less bold around adults than a lot of kids I see today. We felt something akin to fear of adults--not fear of being harmed, but just a very definite barrier between our (kid) world and the adult world. And we clearly understood our place was in kid world. For better or worse, I don't think this type of boundary exists. Actually I think it is worse for all of us because kids become adults too soon. What will be the consequence of adults who had little or no childhood?

2. I get really upset, like everyone else I guess, when I think others are treating me with disrespect. For example, parents failing to prevent their 3 year old from wacking me in the head from the next booth in a restaurant. Or drivers who refuse to wait in line, or fail to signal, or tie up the fast lane for extended periods, etc. Such anxiety is old news, but what I'd really like to know is the mindset of these folks. Do they realize but just not care about their impact on me or about fundamental fairness--i.e., dog-eat-dog, and I'm just a sucker. Or do they even reach that level of conscious thought--instead being so narcissistic and self-absorbed, they don't really register that I am here or that they are members of a society?

Maybe, Chuck, the parents of these children and adults are like my sister who believes that children ought to be allowed to be kids and there will come a time when suddenly it will be the right time to teach them manners and consideration for others. What she and others do not understand is that children are always being taught by adults and others or they are doing the teaching. By the time it occurs to parents that their little darlings are inconsiderate brats it's too late to apply rules because the kids have found out that there is no reason to listen to their parents. Her little boy scout has never been stopped by a stranger and told what good manners he has, my non-boy scout has, many times. I've had to put up with years of critisism for being too hard on my kids because I require them to have manners all the time, even in McDonalds!!!

I am repeatedly appalled by what some parents allow their kids to do, and even more appalled by their indignant reaction if an outsider finally can't take it any more and asks them to knock it off. I would have been just as mortified as my mother would have been if my kid bothered anyone enough to draw that kind of attention.

HOWEVER: some people have utterly unrealistic expectations and have no clue what children are or should be about.

Scene: A McDonald's in Chicago's Loop -- lunchtime, full of tourists and day-trip moms and kids. Two little boys were blowing bubbles into their drinks and jerking the straws up and down in the plastic lid to make squeaking noises.

Some lone distraught woman went over to their table and said "STOP that, stop it right now!" and glared at their mother.

Had she done that in Chez Boeuf I might have understood, but McDonald's? Where did she think she was?

So, Eric. There are steakhouses and steakhouses. And there are kids and kids. What's your question?

O.K. here it goes, I don't know Chuck, I'm the same age as you and have observed the exact same thing re:Kids not respecting adults and I have 2 theories which I know are contoversial but here they are:
1. Parents weren't afraid to discipline years ago (you know what I mean, in my house the preferred method was a wooden yardstick, I only had to have it used on me once and I learned my lesson). Nowadays if you so much as look at your kid cross eyed there is someone waiting to report you to DCF.
2. Parents knew who the boss was and didn't try to be their kids best friend. IMO kids should know who is boss (me) and that I love them dearly but I am not their best buddy
And by the way, if some child is kicking you, tell the parents! I was on a flight with my kids when about 2 hours into it the guy in front got up, spun around and yelled "tell your kid to stop kicking the seat, he's driving me crazy!" I had no idea and immediately made him stop. It was kind of a nervous habit and I then had to physically hold his legs when he started again. I honestly didn't know he was doing this as my other child was seated in between us. I wish that guy had said something sooner.
Anyway, just my opinion. Now everyone can tell me what a monster I am for saying it's O.K. to use the yardstick (or belt in my husbands case) on your child.

The post from Give em could have been written by me. I too was on a flight when my son was young, maybe 4 and I had an infant too, alone as husband was working. An older cople voluntarily sat in front of us (Southwest). Suddenly the man turned around looked into the face of a 4 year old and blew him back with a loud "would you stop kicking the seat" I had no idea as it did no appear that the child's feet could reach. I carefully watched my son the rest of the way and I could tell the man was just waiting for one more kick so that he could explode again. What I would have appreciated was at the first instance that kicking bothered him or his wife, if one would have turned around and said in a friendly voice that maybe I wasn't aware that my son's feet reached the seat and that the kicking was bothering them. If I was an inconsiderate slob after that he could have escalated it.

If children weren't allowed in restaurants I think that would disqualify about 3/4 (more?) of the people posting on this thread from eating out.

What is Grow Up talking about? Is he/she saying that 3/4 of the people posting to this thread take and support toddlers in steakhouses? That's not how I read this. Most people are saying there are plenty of rude people in addition to those who take toddlers to restaurants.

What I meant was that there are a lot of posters here that are very immature and rude... and isn't that is exactly the type of behaviour they are complaining about?

Grow Up, where are the rude people behaving like screaming kids? Which posts would qualify for that designation? Ok maybe Bill and Jim but that's not 3/4!

canyouread,
You say I am rude. True that is an opinion, but in my opinion, you are rude also. Sorry that you think calling for compromise from both sides is rude.
Or getting x, who is making generalizations that most parents with kids are ruining his/her meals most of the time at all the fine restaurants he/she eats at & calling most parents self-centered, to try & look at him/her self before making sweeping generalizations.
You have every right to call me rude, but be aware that when you are in the same fine restaurant as I am, you(or anybody else) will NOT have your meal disturbed by either myself, my wife, or my children - if I so choose to bring them with. Where ever we go, in the world, my children are taught to respect the rights of others in all sorts of situations, including eating out, & also to try to ignore rude, loud adults who may be annoying to them - not all adults are like that. & If I see other children misbehaving, I use that as a learning tool for my children on what they better not be doing & explain to them how that bad behavior can affect others.

Ok Bill, I take it back. After rereading your post I agree you were not being rude. Sorry for labeling you.

I totally agree with Giveem about disciplining children these days. A few smacks on my bratty bottom with The Big Wooden Spoon straightened me out plenty when I was a kid.

Last week I watch my friend discipline her unruly son by sending him to his room for a timeout. His room is filled with a TV, computer, video games, toys. We could hear him having a temper tantrum for about 5 minutes, then he slammed open the door and refused to stay in his room. Wow. I think a few well placed whacks on his backside would have done him a world of good.