I am an old poster(since 2003). I have participated in sweat lodges but never, ever in something this large scale. It involved maybe 5 of us and one could leave whenever saw the need to leave. I find the whole story of what happened at this "retreat" pretty horrible. For $9000 a week, I'd think you could have a few sweat lodges and make certain health issues are "attended to".

Mr. Ray needs to bring his spiritual leadership talents to unfortunate incarcerated individuals. I suggest 10-15 years for criminal manslaughter/negligent homicide courtesy of the Government of Arizona.

I haven't checked out those links yet but I did see a report that the retreat participants HAD NO IDEA there was going to be a sweatlodge on the last day. They thought they were going to be dismissed for the day when Ray announced that he had a surprise for them--they were going to participate in a sweat.

You should never be forced, coerced or otherwise pressured to enter a sweatlodge.

A different link mentioned that people were passing out and when others tried to assist them in leaving, or attempted to leave themselves, Ray would not let them. If this is true, it's beyond irresponsible.

This puts Mr. Ray right up there with the likes of David Koresh and Jim Jones.

Only wealthier.

Isn't there some other site for this kind of "stuff" to be posted and followed? Surely this isn't the right one. Personally, I wish someone would "sweat lodge" Dick Fuld.

Right. Should be moved to the Lounge.

I just hope the prosecutor steps in and files manslaughter charges, and freezes the assets of this charlatan's $9 million a year company. He's got at least 3 wrongful death lawsuits coming his way.

He really stepped into it when he brought in the "channeler". He seems to be trying to justify what he did. This is one scary dude, making a mockery of a Native American ritual and then reaping huge profits.

Well, I thought that since this tragedy happened at a
popular Arizona destination it should be posted under
'Arizona'.

If I were posting a question about someone falling off Angel's Landing in Zion NP, should that be posted in
the Lounge as well?

Perhaps the logic is that 'not nice' topics about a
destination, especially one as popular as Sedona, should
be dumped into some vague, unrelated area to keep the
destination 'pure' or something.

Clearly Sedona is not the pristine spiritual center
that it is portrayed to be. Even Paradise had a snake
after all.

I have been to many sweat lodge ceremonies over the past 15 years. The owners of SpiritQuest Retreats in Sedona released their statement about this incident several days ago. They got it EXACTLY right. If you want the whole story on why this is tragedy is Ray's fault, you should read the entire statement on their blog.

http://www.blog.retreatsbyspiritquest.com

http://blog.retreatsbyspiritquest.co...a.aspx?ref=rss

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/arizon...ory?id=8886102

where is the best sweat lodge near utah?

Sweat Lodges and the Angel’s Fall from Grace

Men who play God have big lessons to learn. God-like power requires immense responsibility and accountability. Few humans successfully evade their ego’s grasp, surrender their power and control over others, and chose openness instead. The sad loss of three people’s lives in a sweat lodge ceremony at Angel Valley Retreat last week has brought hard scrutiny and criticism to Sedona’s New Age scene, to charismatic seminar leaders like James Arthur Ray, and to the area’s “spiritual” community at large. Wake up calls are not particularly selective or fair.

What strikes me about this devastating episode is that the organizer, James Arthur Ray, and his assistants seemingly lost their way at this particular sweat lodge while previous sweats lead by them took place without any apparent problems. Or were they just lucky and the tipping point was waiting silently for the day they pushed the envelope? What truly went awry has yet to be determined or revealed by the forensic examiners. Whether their determination will be unanimously agreed upon is unlikely. However, one point is obvious to anyone who has attended a Lodge before: the people who died were inside the lodge longer than they should have been.

Whether they wanted to get out and were afraid to be seen as weak, whether their fractured physical state closed in on them so quickly that they went unconscious and unnoticed (easy in a dark room where the other folks have their eyes closed), or whether it was the sweat leader’s admonishments that they believed and then tried to endure more than they could have physically tolerated, it is very obvious that these three people, and the many others that were similarly near the end of their physical abilities to stay conscious, should have left the sweat lodge much earlier in the session.

A true sweat Lodge is not a simple sauna or steam room where you can just walk out whenever you want to leave. Imagine a pitch dark room, a low ceiling that requires attendees to crawl in, intense heat and steam forcing you to forget about the others around you, and in this case, possibly 40 people between you and the door should you need to leave. It’s a miracle that more participants did not suffer greater physical damage than they did from this “sweatbox”. It certainly was not a true Lodge where the leader is very experienced and looks after the participants’ well-being. Most Native American tribes’ traditions require the Lodge leader to apprentice for many years and develop the skills necessary to insure that no participant is ever seriously hurt in their purification ceremony. The Lodge leader is their caretaker in their journey into the unknown.

In one of her early public comments after the incident, Beverly Bunn, the Texas orthodontist who was one the sweat lodge attendees and the first to publicly comment, said, “Ray told the more than 50 people jammed into the small structure -- people who had just completed a 36-hour "vision quest" in which they fasted alone in the desert -- that vomiting "was good for you, that you are purging what your body doesn't want, what it doesn't need."

Sweat lodges can be a dangerous place depending on your state of health, the intensity of the heat and steam, the duration you spend without new, fresh air, the duration of the entire ceremony, your hydration level at the start, the number of participants crammed into the sweat lodge structure, the structure’s insulation and design, the flexibility of the ceremony’s leaders for allowing attendees to exit from the lodge when needed, and the previous experience of the attendees in enduring such physical rigors.

James Arthur Ray commented recently on his website in response to the situation at Angel Valley in Sedona. Part of his comment was, “I want you to know that I too want to know what happened that caused this horrible tragedy.”

I am pretty sure he’ll find that he did many things inappropriately, even recklessly, and that that was what caused the tragedy. Will he cop out or walk the talk? We shall see….

I have had the great pleasure of participating in sweat lodges lead by Native American teachers and spiritual guides. Grandfather Wallace Black Elk, Gerald Ice, Ruben Yellowhorse, and Bruce Jim have all shared their gifts with me as I shared their Lodges and teachings. Most humbly I say “thank you” to all of them. I have also sweat with old friends in simple lodges built on their home land by Navajo medicine man Sam Boone, a Peyote Road Chief who reputedly supervised the construction and dedication of over 1,000 Lodges in his lifetime. I’ve also participated in sweat lodges hidden in the wilderness where the friends who gathered all knew the Ways and no ego trip was to be had in any form.

I have never attended a sweat ceremony that was “New Age” in nature or guided by a seminar leader, though I have close friends that have done so and felt the experience was quite valuable. Though they had never participated in a sweat lodge ceremony lead by an experienced Native American guide, I could tell in their voice that they had found true meaning through the purification they experienced in their lodge experience. True purification takes place in one’s innermost being and is the result of one’s open heart and desire, not the framework, words, or ceremony involved. You can find beauty and peace even if you do not speak the language of the Lodge leaders. Sincerity and clarity go a long way.

I have experienced the purification that a true Lodge provides. The removal of psychic debris, a “washing-away of sins”, “letting go” of the past, receiving forgiveness from the world, whatever your metaphor, it can happen in a Lodge.

The challenging physical side of a sweat is only one part of a true Lodge. Absolute darkness, where all participants are equal and only a person’s voice and their spirit are evident, is another integral part of the experience. Sharing open-hearted prayers to All our Relations, given as an offering to the Great Mystery, are also an important part of an authentic Lodge.

So, too, the sacred songs with spirit power that rise like the steam and penetrate each Lodge member, that make thoughts fall away and reveal the real meaning of why you attended in the first place. It can be a gentle awakening that comes to you quietly and helps you feel like you have discovered some unknown part of your true self.

I have attended “Suffering Lodges” where the intent of purification and renewal is still the same, however the means are quite different. The leader of these lodges and his assistants felt that it was important to push beyond our typical “comfort zone” and penetrate the realms beyond, whatever they might be. Lodges like this test the members’ physical endurance and those that fail that test are quite obvious. This might ring a bell in reference to comments from some of the participants of the recent Angel Valley incident. There’s always the “macho” stigma of leaving too early and looking like you “can’t take it”.

I have seen strong, fit men scald so quickly and unexpectedly by a bucket-full of water poured over red, hot stones that they leap across the Lodge and out the canvas/blanket door like a Superman on fire. Once, at a Lodge I attended weekly for several years, I saw a new member who seemed a bit cocky and proud of his manliness leap to his feet inside the low-roofed sweat lodge, lift it off the ground, and almost carry it away on his back in response to a sudden blast of fiery steam that certainly did push him into “another realm”. The Lodge leader later said that the fellow did not have an open heart or he would have been able to stay and endure. I disagreed, however I had also been fortunate to have not encountered such a strenuous Lodge in my first half-dozen experiences. I had time to adapt to the heat and steam and learn my personal limits.

Reading about the Angel Valley sweat lodge ceremony set off alarms because it reminded me of the sweat lodges I’ve attended that were focused more on suffering instead of a more peaceful spiritual cleansing and purification. It made me wonder if perhaps James Ray, the sweat leader, was trying to provide a more “dynamic” experience in order to give these participants “their money’s worth” and give them a feeling of satisfaction that they had really made it to a “higher level”. Was this the God game? The Secret?

What is now obvious is that he did not have the practical awareness and necessary sweat lodge experience to run a safe sweat and look after those within the lodge. He was more concerned about how he could use that intense experience to manipulate the consciousness of the participants, his clients. He was not particularly mindful of the participants’ health and seemed to be focused more upon what he could do to make them “go beyond their limits”. He did not understand the hidden dangers involved, especially in a lodge with so many people packed into such a tight space, especially sending people into the sweat after three days of fasting , especially sending people into the sweat in an already dehydrated state, especially in a lodge with so many inexperienced attendees that did not know that they could and should leave the lodge if they felt they needed to for their own safety. It’s another example of New Age “mix and match” techniques. Ray states on his website that he has traveled the world in search of secret wisdom and techniques that will empower his seminar clients in attaining new levels and awareness. A little Amazon medicine man here, a little Native American sweat lodge there, and presto: A New Age cocktail for Enlightenment….or should we say, a New Age recipe for disaster?

It’s a fine line knowing yourself, knowing when you are pushing yourself beyond your limits in a safe way, or whether you are pushing yourself beyond limits in a way that will not allow your peaceful return once you have done so. Exactly how was a person supposed to cross the mass of bodies in their way if they needed to exit? Were there lodge assistants who knew how to pick out the attendees likely to be a risk and knew how to keep track of those possible “problem people”?

James Arthur Ray’s website’s description of this seminar, called “Mystic Warrior”, described the workshop in this way, “After mastering the financial, mental, and spiritual planes, your Heroic Quest begins as you walk the path of the Spiritual Warrior”. More alarm bells….

A wise teacher who I respect, Chogyam Trungpa, Rinpoche, said, “Perhaps there is no such thing as spirituality other than to stop deceiving ourselves”. Does it make sense to you that spirituality is actually quite simple, like daily life lived with awareness, consciously, instead of asleep, unconsciously?

There were times that I was just about to leave the Lodge out of sheer exhaustion and pain. Miraculously I did not have to because that moment was coincidently signaled the end of that “door”, the 15 -20 minute period of the lodge where the sweat lodge is opened and new, heated stones are placed into the central fire pit. The number of “doors” determines the total length of the ceremony and I have experienced a few Lodges where the 9th or 10th door is reached and only with a Lodge leader who personally knew all the members, their individual physical capabilities, and could create conditions that would stretch them to new levels of endurance without toasting them along the way. Lodges like that lasted well over two and one-half hours. No one walked out, we all crawled on our knees and collapsed under the sun.

Approximately 200 people attended the talk by Wallace Black Elk when he came to Sedona in the early 1990’s and spoke for two hours at Verde Valley School. His words flew around the room and landed on all of us like tobacco ties destined for blessings. It was both stunning and yet peaceful to hear him speak about the Spirit world he lived within in the same way we might speak about our typical, daily life. That world of power was his home and our world was alien to him. Later he invited all present to attend a Lodge the following day at a location nearby.

Attendees started arriving at 9 am as Wallace sat outside the large sweat lodge telling stories and tying tobacco ties with the few of us that had joined him earlier that morning. Many people came and went over the next 5 or 6 hours, unable to stay in the moment and wait for the Lodge. They had come expecting the event to be ready for them. They weren’t going to wait for hours. When the Lodge finally began, about 40 people crowded into the cramped structure, making both an inner and outer circle around the hot stones in the Lodge’s center in order to accommodate so many participants. It was a tight fit, but the steam was applied sparingly throughout the fours “doors” to come. Wallace’s focus was more on the sacred songs, prayers, and the experience itself than a physical challenge meant to push the attendees into another world.

The traditional Lakota Lodge that Wallace guided was assisted by Arnold Rice, a Yavapai Apache singer and drummer. His voice and drum added a special touch to this Lodge that I had not experienced before. Like previous Lodges I had attended that were intended for new participants to the sweat lodge ceremony, this Lodge was also not an airtight or heavily insulated with layer upon layer of thick wool blankets or plastic sheeting. This Lodge of thinner insulation required many more heated stones than normal to elevate and maintain a sweat-inducing temperature. It also dissipated its heat quickly compared to Lodges with serious insulation that required far fewer hot stones and heated up much more rapidly. It was perfect for the first-timers and did not disappoint even the experienced questers. The integrity and spirit of the Lodge leader, Wallace Black Elk, made all the difference.

The sweat lodge at Angel Valley was more crowded, more airtight, and possibly hotter than a lodge should ever be for participants without considerable sweat experience under their belts.

The sweat lodge at Angel Valley held a crowd of dehydrated attendees who were there on a personal mission to discover new heights, new perspectives.

The sweat lodge at Angel Valley was guided by people who did not have the necessary experience to insure their attendees’ safety. These leaders placed safety second.

Spirituality can include everyday news. It doesn’t have to be unique, mind-boggling, or special. It’s our modern-day desire to possess, to consume, and perhaps to even purchase enlightenment that fuels out-of-control situations like this one.

Peace be to the Seekers who found more than they bargained for.