Sedona Sweat Lodge Deaths
Oct 14th, 2009, 10:08 AM
#23
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Thank you lowender...your and the other comment by the others who enjoy sweat lodge ceremonies give me the insight I was looking for. If I ever make it to Tucson again, I'd love to participate.
It is unfortunate that this incident has cast the practice in a bad light but it is good to know that there are those passionate enough about it to defend it and continue the tradition in the manner it was meant to be.
It is unfortunate that this incident has cast the practice in a bad light but it is good to know that there are those passionate enough about it to defend it and continue the tradition in the manner it was meant to be.
Oct 14th, 2009, 01:36 PM
#26
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Placename... I have never, EVER paid to participate in a sweat or any other Native ceremony.
Jette... my name is Liz. I have a blog where I write about my family, but also about native ceremonies. Stop on by to find out more about these ways: http://madreadoptiva.blogspot.com
Jette... my name is Liz. I have a blog where I write about my family, but also about native ceremonies. Stop on by to find out more about these ways: http://madreadoptiva.blogspot.com
Oct 14th, 2009, 09:27 PM
#27
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HERES A STATEMENT ISSUED BY ARVOL LOOKING HORSE
As Keeper of our Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle, I am concerned
> for
> the 2 deaths and illnesses of the many people that participated in a
> sweat
> lodge in Sedona, Arizona that brought our sacred rite under fire in the
> news. I would like to clarify that this lodge and many others, are not
> our
> ceremonial way of life, because of the way they are being conducted. My
> prayers go out for their families and loved ones for their loss.
>
> Our ceremonies are about life and healing, from the time this ancient
> ceremonial rite was given to our people, never has death been a part of
> our
> inikag¹a (life within) when conducted properly. Today the rite is
> interpreted as a sweat lodge, it is much more then that. So the term
> does
> not fit our real meaning of purification.
>
> Inikag¹a is the oldest ceremony brought to us by Wakan Tanka (Great
> Spirit).
> 19 generations ago, the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota Oyate (people), were given
> seven sacred rites of healing by a Spirit Woman Pte San Win (White
> Buffalo
> Calf Woman). She brought these rites along with our sacred C¹anupa
> (pipe) to
> our People, when our ancestors were suffering from a difficult time. It
> was
> also brought for the future to help us for much more difficult times to
> come. They were brought to help us stay connected to who we are as a
> traditional cultural People. The values of conduct are very strict in
> any
> of these ceremonies, because we work with spirit. The way the Creator,
> Wakan Tanka told us; that if we stay humble and sincere, we will keep
> that
> connection with the inyan oyate (the stone people), who we call the
> Grandfathers, to be able to heal our selves and loved ones. We have a
> ³gift² of prayer and healing and have to stay humble with our Unc¹i
> Maka
> (Grandmother Earth) and with one another. The inikag¹a is used in all
> of the
> seven sacred rites to prepare and finish the ceremonies, along with the
> sacred eagle feather. The feather represents the sacred knowledge of our
> ancestors.
>
> Our First Nations People have to earn the right to pour the mini
> wic¹oni
> (water of life) upon the inyan oyate (the stone people) in creating
> Inikag¹a
> - by going on the vision quest for four years and four years Sundance.
> Then
> you are put through a ceremony to be painted - to recognize that you
> have
> now earned that right to take care of someone¹s life through
> purification.
> They should also be able to understand our sacred language, to be able
> to
> understand the messages from the Grandfathers, because they are ancient,
> they are our spirit ancestors. They walk and teach the values of our
> culture; in being humble, wise, caring and compassionate.
>
> What has happened in the news with the make shift sauna called the sweat
> lodge is not our ceremonial way of life!
>
> When you do ceremony - you can not have money on your mind. We deal with
> the
> pure sincere energy to create healing that comes from everyone in that
> circle of ceremony. The heart and mind must be connected. When you
> involve
> money, it changes the energy of healing. The person wants to get what
> they
> paid for; the Spirit Grandfathers will not be there, our way of life is
> now
> being exploited! You do more damage then good. No² mention² of
> monetary
> energy should exist in healing, not even with a can of love donations.
> When
> that energy exists, they will not even come. Only Œafter¹ the
> ceremony,
> between the person that is being healed and the Intercessor who has
> helped
> connect with the Great Spirit, the energy of money can be given out of
> appreciation. That exchange of energy is from the heart; it is private
> and
> does not involve the Grandfathers! Whatever gift of appreciation the
> person
> who received the help, can now give the Intercessor what ever they feel
> their healing is worth.
>
> In our Prophesy of the White Buffalo Calf Woman, she told us that she
> would
> return and stand upon the earth when we are having a hard time. In 1994
> this
> began to happen with the birth of the white buffalo, not only their
> nation,
> but many animal nations began to show their sacred color, which is
> white.
> She predicted that at this time there would be many changes upon
> Grandmother
> Earth. There would be things that we never experienced or heard of
> before;
> climate changes, earth changes, diseases, disrespect for life and one
> another would be shocking and there would be also many false prophets!
>
> My Grandmother that passed the bundle to me said I would be the last
> Keeper
> if the Oyate (people) do not straighten up. The assaults upon
> Grandmother
> Earth are horrendous, the assaults toward one another was not in our
> culture, the assaults against our People (Oyate) have been termed as
> genocide, and now we are experiencing spiritual genocide!
>
> Because of the problems that began to arise with our rebirth of being
> able
> to do our ceremonies in the open since the Freedom of Religion Act of
> 1978,
> our Elders began talking to me about the abuses they seen in our
> ceremonial
> way of life, which was once very strict. After many years of witnessing
> their warnings, we held a meeting to address this very issue of lack of
> protocol in our ceremonies. After reaching an agreement of addressing
> the
> misconduct of our ceremonies and reminding of the proper protocols, a
> statement was made in March 2003. Every effort was made to insure our
> way
> of life of who we are as traditional cultural People was made, because
> these
> ways are for our future and all life upon the Grandmother Earth
> (Mitakuye
> Oyasin All my relations), so that they may have good health. Because
> these
> atrocities are being mocked and practiced all over the world, there was
> even
> a film we made called ³Spirits for Sale².
>
> The non-native people have a right to seek help from our ³First Nation
> Intercessors² for good health and well-being, it is up to that
> Intercessor.
> That is a privilege for all People that we gift for being able to have
> good
> health and understand that their protocol is to have respect and
> appreciate
> what we have to share. The First Nations Intercessor has to earn that
> right
> to our ceremonial way of life in the ways I have explained.
>
> At this time, I would like to ask all Nations upon Grandmother Earth to
> please respect our sacred ceremonial way of life and stop the
> exploitation
> of our Tunka Oyate (Spiritual Grandfathers).
>
> In a Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no ending and no beginning!
>
> Namah¹u yo (hear my words),
> Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White
> Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle.
>
As Keeper of our Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle, I am concerned
> for
> the 2 deaths and illnesses of the many people that participated in a
> sweat
> lodge in Sedona, Arizona that brought our sacred rite under fire in the
> news. I would like to clarify that this lodge and many others, are not
> our
> ceremonial way of life, because of the way they are being conducted. My
> prayers go out for their families and loved ones for their loss.
>
> Our ceremonies are about life and healing, from the time this ancient
> ceremonial rite was given to our people, never has death been a part of
> our
> inikag¹a (life within) when conducted properly. Today the rite is
> interpreted as a sweat lodge, it is much more then that. So the term
> does
> not fit our real meaning of purification.
>
> Inikag¹a is the oldest ceremony brought to us by Wakan Tanka (Great
> Spirit).
> 19 generations ago, the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota Oyate (people), were given
> seven sacred rites of healing by a Spirit Woman Pte San Win (White
> Buffalo
> Calf Woman). She brought these rites along with our sacred C¹anupa
> (pipe) to
> our People, when our ancestors were suffering from a difficult time. It
> was
> also brought for the future to help us for much more difficult times to
> come. They were brought to help us stay connected to who we are as a
> traditional cultural People. The values of conduct are very strict in
> any
> of these ceremonies, because we work with spirit. The way the Creator,
> Wakan Tanka told us; that if we stay humble and sincere, we will keep
> that
> connection with the inyan oyate (the stone people), who we call the
> Grandfathers, to be able to heal our selves and loved ones. We have a
> ³gift² of prayer and healing and have to stay humble with our Unc¹i
> Maka
> (Grandmother Earth) and with one another. The inikag¹a is used in all
> of the
> seven sacred rites to prepare and finish the ceremonies, along with the
> sacred eagle feather. The feather represents the sacred knowledge of our
> ancestors.
>
> Our First Nations People have to earn the right to pour the mini
> wic¹oni
> (water of life) upon the inyan oyate (the stone people) in creating
> Inikag¹a
> - by going on the vision quest for four years and four years Sundance.
> Then
> you are put through a ceremony to be painted - to recognize that you
> have
> now earned that right to take care of someone¹s life through
> purification.
> They should also be able to understand our sacred language, to be able
> to
> understand the messages from the Grandfathers, because they are ancient,
> they are our spirit ancestors. They walk and teach the values of our
> culture; in being humble, wise, caring and compassionate.
>
> What has happened in the news with the make shift sauna called the sweat
> lodge is not our ceremonial way of life!
>
> When you do ceremony - you can not have money on your mind. We deal with
> the
> pure sincere energy to create healing that comes from everyone in that
> circle of ceremony. The heart and mind must be connected. When you
> involve
> money, it changes the energy of healing. The person wants to get what
> they
> paid for; the Spirit Grandfathers will not be there, our way of life is
> now
> being exploited! You do more damage then good. No² mention² of
> monetary
> energy should exist in healing, not even with a can of love donations.
> When
> that energy exists, they will not even come. Only Œafter¹ the
> ceremony,
> between the person that is being healed and the Intercessor who has
> helped
> connect with the Great Spirit, the energy of money can be given out of
> appreciation. That exchange of energy is from the heart; it is private
> and
> does not involve the Grandfathers! Whatever gift of appreciation the
> person
> who received the help, can now give the Intercessor what ever they feel
> their healing is worth.
>
> In our Prophesy of the White Buffalo Calf Woman, she told us that she
> would
> return and stand upon the earth when we are having a hard time. In 1994
> this
> began to happen with the birth of the white buffalo, not only their
> nation,
> but many animal nations began to show their sacred color, which is
> white.
> She predicted that at this time there would be many changes upon
> Grandmother
> Earth. There would be things that we never experienced or heard of
> before;
> climate changes, earth changes, diseases, disrespect for life and one
> another would be shocking and there would be also many false prophets!
>
> My Grandmother that passed the bundle to me said I would be the last
> Keeper
> if the Oyate (people) do not straighten up. The assaults upon
> Grandmother
> Earth are horrendous, the assaults toward one another was not in our
> culture, the assaults against our People (Oyate) have been termed as
> genocide, and now we are experiencing spiritual genocide!
>
> Because of the problems that began to arise with our rebirth of being
> able
> to do our ceremonies in the open since the Freedom of Religion Act of
> 1978,
> our Elders began talking to me about the abuses they seen in our
> ceremonial
> way of life, which was once very strict. After many years of witnessing
> their warnings, we held a meeting to address this very issue of lack of
> protocol in our ceremonies. After reaching an agreement of addressing
> the
> misconduct of our ceremonies and reminding of the proper protocols, a
> statement was made in March 2003. Every effort was made to insure our
> way
> of life of who we are as traditional cultural People was made, because
> these
> ways are for our future and all life upon the Grandmother Earth
> (Mitakuye
> Oyasin All my relations), so that they may have good health. Because
> these
> atrocities are being mocked and practiced all over the world, there was
> even
> a film we made called ³Spirits for Sale².
>
> The non-native people have a right to seek help from our ³First Nation
> Intercessors² for good health and well-being, it is up to that
> Intercessor.
> That is a privilege for all People that we gift for being able to have
> good
> health and understand that their protocol is to have respect and
> appreciate
> what we have to share. The First Nations Intercessor has to earn that
> right
> to our ceremonial way of life in the ways I have explained.
>
> At this time, I would like to ask all Nations upon Grandmother Earth to
> please respect our sacred ceremonial way of life and stop the
> exploitation
> of our Tunka Oyate (Spiritual Grandfathers).
>
> In a Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no ending and no beginning!
>
> Namah¹u yo (hear my words),
> Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White
> Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle.
>
Oct 15th, 2009, 10:51 AM
#28
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I know that Arvol main intention is to bring understanding to the mainstream people is for the benefit of all people! I have been to WPPD and it is a place to share the sacred fire, that can be shared because it is International and sacred to all people, a powerful energy. People have to reconnect with thier own ancestors, that is what our cermeonies are for, to get help from those that lived and died for our ways to survive. That is a knowledge that can be shared with respect and dignity, tobacco, maze or what ever is sacred to your people, feed that sacred fire and talk to your grandfathers and the creator to help you find your connectedness. When our protocols to ceremony are violated and abused, you risk destroying our way of life even more. Haven't we suffered from genocide like he says? SPiritual Genocide now. People are full of ego and make excuses. If you are determined to sweat, then just pray, do not sing our songs calling our grandfathers, use your sauna, or use your own cultures sauna, not the ribs of the cherry stick and sing our calling songs. You mock them. I also went to www.spiritsforsale.com, order it, it has received a lot of awards, including best Internation film in California and South dakota of all places. You will get so much more out of finding spirituality by respecting our voices and yourselves of our desire to keep our ways sacred and not mock them. Right now it is ego and ignorance that people keep doing our ways. As you say, seek enlighenment, in a best respectful way possible. Geez, we already share the healing of our ceremonies to many of your people, walking away cancer, heart and disease free, that is a great gift that would cost you thousands of dollars. Open your ears to your heart, mind and conscience, please save our children's gift to survival in this world that has not been kind and taken everything away!
Oct 15th, 2009, 02:24 PM
#29
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Now they are posting different things. It's not 36 hours, now it's 2 hours, and it's not negligence, it's homicide.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/15/ari...dge/index.html
"An investigation into the deaths of two people who spent up to two hours inside a "sweat lodge" at an Arizona retreat last week has been elevated from an accidental death investigation to a homicide inquiry, Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh told reporters Thursday."
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/15/ari...dge/index.html
"An investigation into the deaths of two people who spent up to two hours inside a "sweat lodge" at an Arizona retreat last week has been elevated from an accidental death investigation to a homicide inquiry, Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh told reporters Thursday."
Oct 15th, 2009, 03:17 PM
#30
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Okay, this is just getting ridiculous. I don't see any posts denigrating the Native American sweat lodge rituals, but somehow many new posters felt the need to register to post long-winded defenses of them.
Speaking for myself, I pass no judgment on these properly conducted and monitored spiritual rituals.
What bugs me is the self-proclaimed "personal success strategist" who:
1. steals from an ancient, sacred tradition
2. charges nearly $10k per person
3. crams as many people as possible into an unsafe, inadequately monitored structure
4. refuses to talk to investigators and flees the state
That, and the people who open their wallets and blindly follow him are what many of the comments on this thread were criticizing.
Speaking for myself, I pass no judgment on these properly conducted and monitored spiritual rituals.
What bugs me is the self-proclaimed "personal success strategist" who:
1. steals from an ancient, sacred tradition
2. charges nearly $10k per person
3. crams as many people as possible into an unsafe, inadequately monitored structure
4. refuses to talk to investigators and flees the state
That, and the people who open their wallets and blindly follow him are what many of the comments on this thread were criticizing.
Oct 15th, 2009, 11:42 PM
#31
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IVK, sorry for your judgement of being long winded. What is being done, the copied structure, is our spirital ritual and has protocols. When it was announced, it was announced as Native structure. Arvol took the time to explain why people should not mock our ways and ask if they do not any more. I do agree with your 1 through 4.
Oct 16th, 2009, 08:13 AM
#32
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I am non-Native. I have been attending traditional Lakota ceremonies for 12 years (since being married into a Native American family) run by traditional Native Americans. From what I have been taught by my Native American Elders:
First, anyone is welcome to a Native American sweat lodge, *however* if you do find one, it is typically through some other person who knows of a sweat lodge and knows the hoop or elder there. It is *not* church and it is *not* a sauna.
Second, curiosity seekers are *not* welcome. Sweat Lodge is *not* an experiment a and especially is *not* "new age". It is an ancient ceremony that needs to be greatly respected, as with all Native American ceremonies.
Third, mixing new age beliefs with this ancient, traditional Native American ceremony can be very dangerous, especially when an experienced and respected Native American elder is *not* running it. Avoid lodges run by non-Natives until you learn the proper way they are performed (and I'll say it again) by a traditional and well-respected elder.
Fourth, there is *never* money exchanged for a ceremony. Money is *never* expected to go to the elder unless you choose to do a voluntary donation to that elder. However, an acknowledgement with a small bag of tobacco (Lakota/Plains way) is typically accepted out of respect and tradition along with a handshake and thanks. Nothing more. Other sacred items such as sweetgrass or sage can be given too or at least a thank you with a gentle handshake.
Lastly, sweat lodge is a Native American ceremony, from their cultures that go back thousands upon thousands of years. Please RESPECT Native Americans and their traditions - do NOT exploit, do NOT brag about attending a lodge and do NOT have expectations to have your ego stroked. You are there to PRAY for others. You are there to help others. Yes, you can cleanse via a sweat lodge and pray for yourself too, but *others* are normally the primary focus for attending. It's about their healing first, then your healing. Be responsible, take care of yourself properly before, during and after the lodge. You are there to be humble and respectful to others as well as to yourself and ESPECIALLY to the ancient ceremony and the Natives and elders there. It is THEIR ceremony that they have allowed us non-Natives to attend. We should all be so very grateful that a ceremony such as this is being shared. Mitakuye Oyasin! (we are all related)
First, anyone is welcome to a Native American sweat lodge, *however* if you do find one, it is typically through some other person who knows of a sweat lodge and knows the hoop or elder there. It is *not* church and it is *not* a sauna.
Second, curiosity seekers are *not* welcome. Sweat Lodge is *not* an experiment a and especially is *not* "new age". It is an ancient ceremony that needs to be greatly respected, as with all Native American ceremonies.
Third, mixing new age beliefs with this ancient, traditional Native American ceremony can be very dangerous, especially when an experienced and respected Native American elder is *not* running it. Avoid lodges run by non-Natives until you learn the proper way they are performed (and I'll say it again) by a traditional and well-respected elder.
Fourth, there is *never* money exchanged for a ceremony. Money is *never* expected to go to the elder unless you choose to do a voluntary donation to that elder. However, an acknowledgement with a small bag of tobacco (Lakota/Plains way) is typically accepted out of respect and tradition along with a handshake and thanks. Nothing more. Other sacred items such as sweetgrass or sage can be given too or at least a thank you with a gentle handshake.
Lastly, sweat lodge is a Native American ceremony, from their cultures that go back thousands upon thousands of years. Please RESPECT Native Americans and their traditions - do NOT exploit, do NOT brag about attending a lodge and do NOT have expectations to have your ego stroked. You are there to PRAY for others. You are there to help others. Yes, you can cleanse via a sweat lodge and pray for yourself too, but *others* are normally the primary focus for attending. It's about their healing first, then your healing. Be responsible, take care of yourself properly before, during and after the lodge. You are there to be humble and respectful to others as well as to yourself and ESPECIALLY to the ancient ceremony and the Natives and elders there. It is THEIR ceremony that they have allowed us non-Natives to attend. We should all be so very grateful that a ceremony such as this is being shared. Mitakuye Oyasin! (we are all related)
Oct 16th, 2009, 08:17 AM
#33
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Oct 19th, 2009, 07:02 AM
#34
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You long-time posters need to get a grip. The OP asks for insight into the situation. Those of us who participate in them regularly are very interested in this news story and it's not surprising that people would stumble upon this post and want to contribute. In any event, why would docdave register under another name to ARGUE with himself? As someone who is well versed in the terms and language used, I don't think any of these posters sound like they are the same person.
To respond to lvk, again the OP asks for insight, and others ask "why would someone want to sit and sweat for 2 hours?"
If you calm yourself down and actually read the posts, almost all (except for lavender) agree that what happened was wrong, and Ray was out of line. He took a sacred practice and was getting rich off of it, and clearly he didn't know what he was doing.
A traditional lodge is built with young trees and blankets/tarps. A structure this large may have been built with plastic tubing or pipe, which almost certainly would emit strong fumes with the high heat of a lodge. Even if it was not built with plastic, a large lodge crammed with people would not allow those on the interior to cool down properly between rounds.
To respond to lvk, again the OP asks for insight, and others ask "why would someone want to sit and sweat for 2 hours?"
If you calm yourself down and actually read the posts, almost all (except for lavender) agree that what happened was wrong, and Ray was out of line. He took a sacred practice and was getting rich off of it, and clearly he didn't know what he was doing.
A traditional lodge is built with young trees and blankets/tarps. A structure this large may have been built with plastic tubing or pipe, which almost certainly would emit strong fumes with the high heat of a lodge. Even if it was not built with plastic, a large lodge crammed with people would not allow those on the interior to cool down properly between rounds.
Oct 21st, 2009, 12:54 AM
#35
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I remember a similar incident happening a few years ago with a raw foods 'expert' at his retreat in Arizona. His ego wouldn't allow people leave the lodge when they wanted to and a man fell on the hot rocks in the center of the lodge while he was trying to leave. A helicopter flew in and took him to a hospital.
Oct 21st, 2009, 11:18 AM
#36
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First person account of what happened
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091021/...t_lodge_deaths
Strange that people would pay $9K to be tortured to death.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091021/...t_lodge_deaths
Strange that people would pay $9K to be tortured to death.
Oct 21st, 2009, 11:13 PM
#37
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Death valley:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...at-lodge-death
James Ray and sweat lodge victims - transcript:
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Phil...-lodge-victims
Inside accouts:
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Phil...reat?#comments
Progress Report:
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Phil...-lodge-scandal
James Ray uses teen wilderness program techniques on adults:
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Phil...th-Brett-Merle
Sweat lodge survivors continue to speak out:
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Phil...e-to-speak-out
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...at-lodge-death
James Ray and sweat lodge victims - transcript:
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Phil...-lodge-victims
Inside accouts:
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Phil...reat?#comments
Progress Report:
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Phil...-lodge-scandal
James Ray uses teen wilderness program techniques on adults:
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Phil...th-Brett-Merle
Sweat lodge survivors continue to speak out:
http://www.examiner.com/x-11245-Phil...e-to-speak-out
Oct 21st, 2009, 11:17 PM
#38
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James Ray's 'The Secret' featured this guy!
http://vimeo.com/4325210
http://vimeo.com/4325210
Oct 22nd, 2009, 02:52 AM
#39
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Oct 22nd, 2009, 05:29 AM
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From the NY Times article.
On a conference call Mr. Ray held last week for sweat lodge participants, Dr. Bunn was shocked to hear one recount the comments of a self-described “channeler” who visited Angel Valley after the retreat. Claiming to have communicated with the dead, the channeler said they had left their bodies in the sweat lodge and chosen not to come back because “they were having so much fun.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/us.../y/q8usDj0/gWQ
I personally find the phony new age spiritualism at Sedona disgusting. If people wish to visit northern Arizona they should stay in Jerome.
Please don't support the wackos in Sedona.
On a conference call Mr. Ray held last week for sweat lodge participants, Dr. Bunn was shocked to hear one recount the comments of a self-described “channeler” who visited Angel Valley after the retreat. Claiming to have communicated with the dead, the channeler said they had left their bodies in the sweat lodge and chosen not to come back because “they were having so much fun.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/us.../y/q8usDj0/gWQ
I personally find the phony new age spiritualism at Sedona disgusting. If people wish to visit northern Arizona they should stay in Jerome.
Please don't support the wackos in Sedona.
