I'm not suggesting that dogs be muzzled all the time. I'm suggesting that when large, aggressive dogs are not either indoors or in a strongly fenced yard (and thus a danger to the public) they should be muzzled. A very good reason not to take them out in places with lots of other people/dogs/animals.

As for all dogs being trainable - I think there are a lot that no matter how well trained would react badly to being poked in the eye, or having it's ear pulled by a toddler. This was done to the dog I grew up with by the child of an idiot visiting the people next door. Luckily she was a very gentle animal (corgi, fox terrier mix) and simply ran away from the child - over to us. But when the child approached again she growled (I had never seen her do that before). I took the child back next door and told the parents to keep it out of our yard - but they wouldn't watch it - and we didn't let the dog out alone until they left.

Now, she was a super gentle dog, loved all the children and other dogs in the neighborhood - they sometimes played tag or hide and seek together. You could even pry chewing gum out of her mouth (she would pick it up off the sidewalk). But I'm not sure she wouldn't have bitten the child if it cornered her and hurt her again.

I love dogs and have owned a few in my life. My dogs were always trained and well-behaved, but for the most part the only time they left my home and yard was to go to the vet or take an occasional walk in the neighborhood. I never took them to fairs or festivals or any other crowded place, "dog friendly" or not.

Where I live, people seem to take their dogs everywhere as though the dog were another of their children that can't be left home alone. Two cats and a small dog have been killed by leashed but uncontrollable dogs over the past couple of years. These attacks occurred when the owner(s) were at the other end of the leash. The city has passed an ordinance that you can't tie up your dog and leave it unattended anywhere, any time. Small comfort.

Originally, you stated that:

<<And any dog of a large, aggressive bred should be muzzled if they must be brought to public places.>>

I disagreed that the muzzle use should be dependent only upon the breed and that it should be used whenever that breed of dog is brought into a public place.

Your last post restated it to say:

<<I'm suggesting that when large, aggressive dogs are not either indoors or in a strongly fenced yard (and thus a danger to the public) they should be muzzled. A very good reason not to take them out in places with lots of other people/dogs/animals.>>

I agree with that. If the particular dog is aggressive, then it should be muzzled or otherwise restrained and/or separated from people and other animals. I will add that it doesn't matter what size the dog is - if it's aggressive, it should not be "out there".

My point about the muzzling all the time was mentioned because a non-aggressive, well-trained dog should not need to be muzzled based on its breed alone - and that by doing so, you would force that dog to wear a muzzle all day long when it's out with it's owners. That is an unnecessary precaution that puts the dog in danger healthwise.

An aggressive dog should not be out in public, muzzled or otherwise, so the risk would be minimalized to only times when it is necessary to bring the dog into contact with others (i.e., vet visits).

I will also add that if you do have an aggressive dog and you do not have a private outdoor area for that dog to exercise and do its business, then you shouldn't have the dog. There is no excuse to bring an aggressive dog to a dogpark or park or neighbor's lawn to do its business.

<<I think there are a lot that no matter how well trained would react badly to being poked in the eye, or having it's ear pulled by a toddler.>>

Of course they will. That's not a lack or part of training, that's a personality trait. Just like people will react differently to a toddler kicking their airline seat, etc. Every animal has its own breaking point. The responsibility of the owner is to learn what that breaking point is and make sure it doesn't get crossed. My boxer had a breaking point that was almost impossible to identify - it ended up being another dog growling at us kids. She accepted being pulled, poked, hit, kicked (accidentally), dogpiled on, used as a pillow, newborn kittens nursing on her, parrots climbing up her body using their beaks and claws, loud noises, taking food out from under her, etc. She actually used to win the guide dog agility test at the dog competition every year (beat out every one of the top guide dogs). My shepherd/lab doesn't like to be touched when she's sleeping or being hugged or held. She's polite with kids, but doesn't really like them. I have different rules with her than we did with the boxer. Every kid in the neighborhood used the boxer as a pillow at some point - no one has ever been allowed to use the shepherd/lab as a pillow.

Taking dogs that are fully under their owner's control to crowded places is a healthy part of their training--isolated dogs can easily become insecure and territorial.

All dogs can be trained! Just like people, some are harder to handle than others. Pit bulls are not bred to be vicious, they are bred to be tenacious and fearless--humans are responsible for taking them to a bad place. Threads like this depress me because they are so full of groundless fears, bad advice (carry a gun to ward off dogs?? Yeah, sure--fire into a crowd aiming at a thing 2 feet off the ground and moving, great plan!) and old wives tales.

Americans prefer to remain ignorant than take simple action: require spaying and neutering and microchipping, prosecute people who dump their dogs, crack down on dog fighting and puppy mills, require training at least for dogs over a certain weight... in other words, be responsible. And we'll all be safer, not to mention more humane.

<<(carry a gun to ward off dogs?? Yeah, sure--fire into a crowd aiming at a thing 2 feet off the ground and moving, great plan!)>>

Don't forget the young girl at the other end of the leash being dragged along behind the dog...

In all my years of home visits, I have only been physically hurt by 2 animals - both cats (which I love). But I have on several occasions asked owners to restrain, lock up, etc their dogs when I am there. Just never think to ask people to do it with their cats.

(Once a cat walked over, rubbed against me, purred - I pet it, it bit me on the hand; the other time a cat flew out from behind the sofa, took a flying leap and attached itself to my thigh as if it were climbing a tree. Both of these patients now have warnings in huge letters on outside of their charts regarding their vicious cats)

<<(carry a gun to ward off dogs?? Yeah, sure--fire into a crowd aiming at a thing 2 feet off the ground and moving, great plan!)>>

gotta say, if we as a society feel the need to carry guns to ward of DOGS in crowded places, I don't even think ahead to the next step.

Back to dogs...I hate those retractable leashes. Too many times they are used by people who don't really have control of the dog, so they let the leash out a little longer. I never thought much about them, until I got tripped rollerblading by a woman's tiny, yippy dog on one of those long leashes.

I have a German shepard who is very protective and does bark at other dogs, so I would never bring him to a festival where it's very crowded. I always warn people, he doesn't bite, but he does jump. Thankfully, this behavior has dissapated over time, but when he gets very excited, he still can jump.

I know he is big and looks intimidating, so I am respectful of others who might be afraid. Truthfully, I am a bit afraid of German shepards and large dogs I don't know, and I absolutely love shepards.

Although, when strangers (i.e., repairmen, etc.) enter my house, I'm not so quick to assure them he doesn't ever bite. I'd like to say, Not unless I tell him to, but I suspect I could get sued for saying something like that.

Karens last line hits the nail on the head. If you feel threatened by an aggressive dog, you may inform the owner that if you are attacked, you will sue.

I'll leave it to the lawyers to determine whether a dog {or its owner] commits simple assault when it threatens a person, but it certainly commits an actionable offense when it attacks.

I feel for dog owners. I once owned an elderly, adorable, crabby Cairn terrier, and it was very hard to keep children away from "the Toto", no matter how much I warned them and their parents that he had Lyme Disease and hated to be touched, but ultimately the owner is liable for all actions of the dog, and I had to keep him in a carrier because people wouldn't leave him alone.

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would bring any dog to a crowded festival or a car show. The dog really doesn't enjoy it and would much rather not be surrounded by all those people and being dragged from place to place.

Why do people, in general, believe they need to have their dog with them all the time?

<<(carry a gun to ward off dogs?? Yeah, sure--fire into a crowd aiming at a thing 2 feet off the ground and moving, great plan!)>>

It's not just for dogs . .

Not only could the owner of a vicious dog be sued if it attacks a person, the dog might be put to death.

MikeT, there is no reason not to bring a well-trained dog into a crowd. How do you know whether the dog enjoys it or not? And anyway, to a dog, enjoyment isn't always the point (the way it is with humans, alas), working hard and doing well for the pack leader is.

"there is no reason not to bring a well-trained dog into a crowd."

Since there is no agreement about what is considered "well-trained" and everyone believes they can't live without their dog at their side, this hardly seems like a good approach.

There are many times when I see dogs, even well-trained ones, places where I wonder if the dog could possibly be having a good time. These are usually dogs which owners believe are status - pit bulls in certain crowds, Goldens in others, and sometimes little yappy pedigreed things.

NewBe, the action you suggest is wise, but I doubt it is simple. We have only to look at the record of children's welfare to know how difficult it is for the state, in particular, to monitor and enforce people's responsibility for their dependent beings.

Regarding, 'all dogs can be trained' - the problem is that all dogs ARE trained, and are trained continuously. The dog that was allowed to approach and intimidate TxTravelPro and his/her dog is being trained, just as surely as those dogs that are being restrained by their owners in public situations are being trained. For that matter, even dogs that are simply left (and oh how I feel for them) chained up all day are being trained.

Dogs as a rule are much (!) more useful, to say nothing of desirable in our society than handguns. But that said, much of what is being said here amounts to 'dogs don't hurt people, people [i.e. the irresponsible dog owner] hurt people.' It doesn't matter that it is true, any more than the handgun corollary is true, because that truth alone doesn't make for effective and efficient policy.

To take an example from auto insurance policy - it is the truth that most 16 to 25 year old males never have an accident. But 1) as a *group*, they are the most likely to have an accident, and efficiency requires that rules and/or insurance rates be set for a group. When communities and nytraveler's vet set breed-specific policies, they are doing the same thing; assessing the track record of groups or breeds as a whole.

The other thing (2) to remember is that a given person's track record as either a driver or a dog owner is always a mixture of responsibility and luck, since no human being is perfect - nobody can claim that they are always, unfailingly, responsible. Sometimes we err and get away with it - and other times....So, communities et al are stuck with the devil's challenge of balancing respect for the needs of those who have done their utmost to be responsible, versus the risk of what happens when things go wrong.

Now, if y'all excuse me, someone is at the door. He has the idea we can go play a game of stick (novel idea!)

First - this is based on my own bias and I admit that. Back in the dark ages, I was an EMS Paramedic for a few years on once a week ambulance call for our volunteer fire department. During that time we had several calls where a person was attacked by a previously docile pet. A few of those times the results were serious. Having seen these results, I wouldn't have a dog that is big enough to do major damage should it "go nuts."
Our own dog attacked my wife once as she entered the room - he had no history of agressive behavior. It turned out according to the Vet that he had some form of epilepsy and did not know what he was doing. Luckily he was only about 23 pounds, the bites were not serious and his condition was treatable.

Why is it so many dog owners assume everybody wants to be around their dog. We have been to one of the larger parks in the area for fireworks and have seen people bring their dogs to this event.
I can think of many reasons that make this a bad idea.
The weather is usually very hot and there are kids running all over.
The fireworks I mentioned which always startled our dog even when we brought them in.
I don't believe dogs belong in all situations and dog owners need to remember not everyone wants your pooch around.