I suppose, Norman, that you consider yourself a Christian.

And a "compassionate conservative."
Shameful.

This perfectly predictable close race is bringing out some of the ugliest sides of America. And "Enough" is right -- the screaming and chaos would be exactly the same if the shoe were on the other foot.

Elizabeth, the media _claims_ that they've "tested" it and that West Coast voting doesn't change if East Coast results are announced. Myself, I don't believe it either, especially when there's a symbolic third-party candidate. If liberals or others had thought that Gore had a sufficient lead to assure winning, they might have been more willing to "risk" their protest vote on Nader. Same thing could happen if conservatives were certain a Republican candidate had a commanding lead so they could cast their vote for a rightwing 3rd party candidate.

Someone asked what does this have to do with travel. Here are my observations followed by opinion.

1. When you visit DC, visit the Senate and House. Look at the rooms where government is conducted. Think of the people who are elected. I asked myself "Are they like me? How can they represent me?" Notice the huge institutional 'structure' around the running of government. Every student learns about the great leaders in American History class: These are some of the same hallways and rooms they made the great decisions and votes.

2. Talk about politics and travel have similar components. One component of travel is the conquering of new places as an accomplishment; the never-ending adding to the list of places one has visited. All topped of with the chance and need to tell anyone and everyone of these experiences. Politics can bring an identity and 'feeling' to ones self. Reinforcing this via discussion can make one feel better. Being called the opposing party can be taken as an insult, resulting in a need to correct and discuss. Both the 'bragging' (lack of better word, sorry) of conquered places and the emotional strength surrounding ones political self are common - they feed and need a forum to discuss.

Opinion. One strong measurement of people are how they spend their time. Certain jobs/occupations/professions are not positive, net overall. I need to feel good about myself, so I don't want to run for elected office, be associated, related or affiliated with any elected official. My scope of this opinion is really only important to my children, as I feel it is my parental requirement to insure they stay away (or are made aware) from things that are not good. Ultimately it is my kids choice, but I must due diligence. I cite our trip to DC as one experience; Congress is made up of mostly millionaires, not like us; Being a politician in society is perceived as very negative (first impressions are important and must be 'undone'); Politics is actually a lifelong 'job' for some people; The institutions that support politics can be seen in DC. They are enormous and self-perpetuating . Some people like politics and believe it is positive. Money influences more than politics, so if you want to influence, use money and don't enter politics. The current squabbling is not surprising to me, as politics does not attract quality humans. Someone has to do the dirty work of the Constitution - but in the end the Constitution will reign despite politicians.

First of all you have to be nuts to run for office in today's climate. You can't even sneeze without the press or the American people knowing about it. Who would want to live their life in that kind of fishbowl? IMO, you have to have a very big ego to run especially for the Presidency.

I agree with the Canadian who asked why they were projecting when polls were not even closed yet. The media has created a lot of the problems in this country because no one has dared rein them in. The media is only interested in ratings and profits. And, anyone who relies on the tv media to get their news is not getting the full picture. They air 30 seconds of a sound bite a candidate says which is blown out of proportiion. One needs to hear the full text of the conversation to get their views not 30 seconds. And, the media is liberal. Whatever happened to non-partiality in the news? We don't get it anymore. IMO, the media needs to reined in and the people in this country need to turn to other sources ie radio, newspapers, magazines, NPR, to get the full picture of what is really going on.

Lastly-Whoever gets into office is going to have to deal with a do-nothing Congress and Senate that is filled with moderates. Bush or Gore is not going to get their agendas passed easily if at all. Nothing much will get accomplished in 4 years and then they will camapign again. IMHO, we need campaign reform, term limits, and spending caps. The amount of money spent is obscene! It could feed the hungry here and abroad. I am still scratching my head over how a dead person can get elected when it clearly violates law. And, why has West Virginia voted Sen. Byrd another term? The man is 82 years old! Tell me he is not getting senile! Sen. Byrd is the fattest pork belly spender of the lot! He moved the Coast Guard HQ to West Virginia a landlocked state. They re-elected him because he gets tons of money for their state. Who cares if he is senile as long as he gets West Virginia more money. This country has really gone to the dogs! It is time the American people woke up from their slumber, and get involved and let their voices be heard. Last I checked the government was supposed to be for the people. bu the people, but somewhere along the line the people got lazy and complacent and let the fat cats, career politicians and the like run our government. Maybe this whole thing is the wake up call America needs!

And if you do not like the way this thing is being handled get on the phone, email, or fax your representative! Let's get the power back to the people!

First Stone........thanks for answering my question on press reporting before the polls are closed.

The United States would be best served if all the out-of-state lawyers left Florida, and let the election process go to it's natural end. Self-righteous lawyers will tear this country apart.

Thanks to GOL for trying to bring this back to the realm of travel. I'd like to think, too, that for those in other countries who are mystified by what's going on here this thread might enlighten them (although I'm not sure that's possible). However, regarding your last comment about the Constitution -- remember it was created by politicians and designed to be modified by politicians, who supposedly represent the people's will. In theory We The People _are_ the Constitution. It doesn't stand outside of us as external, divine word. It is supposed to be the codification of our will. That's an ideal, of course -- but let's at least recognize that Pogo was right when he said "we have met the enemy and he is us."

Concerned Citizen: Yes, the media have a lot to answer for, but you are bananas to repeat that old shibboleth that the the media are liberal. They are all owned by large corporations (Disney, Time-Warner, etc.) and will never report on anything that upsets the management. Ask yourself where that $3 billion raised for the campaigns goes: into the pockets of the advertising agencies and the advertising sales departments of the media, and what's left goes for creating news-opportunities. You are never going to see decent reporting on any real issues, not only because We The People don't have the attention span of a fruitfly but also because too many corporate toes would be stepped on and the networks know they have billion-dollar law firms just waiting to jump in. Instead, the public relations departments of those corporations and trade groups generate thousands of VNRs (video-news-releases) to sugarcoat and white wash issues like drug prices, pollution, insurance costs, etc. without any reference to who made them. Those VNRs are given to TV stations and used as news segments on the local news.

We The People should be very wary of the "there's some good news tonight" segments, announcing new treatments for diseases, new labor-saving gizmos, or telling us how well everything is going. Sometimes it goes right to changing public opinion to affect legislative efforts, without of course identifying the source. Example: a "report" showing how pretty Prince William sound now looks and how well it has "recovered" from the oil spill 15 years later -- produced of course by Exxon and run not as an ad but as news. So much for "balanced" coverage.

TomJeff, like your post. I believe that good people can do/make bad things, just as bad people can make good things. The Contsitution was so well crafted that it will endure, even though - to your comments - it was created by politicians (although I'm not sure a 1700's politician = a 2000 politician).

Another Elizabeth from Canada. I have heard (rather self serving) arguments from the media that even if election results weren't announced until polls closed in your region, citizens could obtain the information via the internet anyways.

One option that has received some discussion here (and makes great sense to me) is to stagger the poll hours across the time zones so that the polls all close at the same time, and then reporting commences. (i.e. in EST polls close at 9:30pm; 6:30pm in PST)

Did you hear the news? Bush filed a lawsuit to prevent the manual recounts in Florida.

What is he thinking? Florida law says a machine recount is automatic, and it has been completed. Florida law says that either candidate can request a manual recount of any county. Gore has made that request, and three counties (the ones that had huge numbers of votes discovered for Gore) have agreed to do it. So it sounds like Bush is saying that he doesn't want the American people to be certain about the real vote totals in Florida.

What is he thinking? Election experts agree that hand counting, though laborious, is much more accurate than machine counting, and it is the standard remedy in a close election to insure accuracy. How can Bush govern if he is afraid to have the ballots counted as accurately as possible? First he said the courts should stay out of it and let Florida count its votes, and now he wants a court to prevent Florida from counting its votes?

If Bush thinks these three counties will favor Gore, why doesn't he just identify counties where he thinks there was a problem and ask for a recount, or ask for a statewide recount. I think Bush is making a BIG mistake.

Bush isn't interested in democracy or the truth he just wants to win. All week he argued that Gore shouldn't use the Florida courts and should rely on the state election procedure. Now when state election law is being followed, but there's a chance that a true count will show Gore ahead, Bush runs to court. What a hypocrite!

He will, of course, lose in court because he has no rational argument to halt the hand recount. But his true colors sure are coming through.

OhMyGod where did you hear that? I'm listening to CNN and theres no mention of it. You know they'd jump on it so I'm assuming that's an unfounded rumor.

Absolutely 100% true that Bush filed a lawsuit. It is all over the front of the Wash Post and any internet news service you care to check. James Baker says it was the only option the Bush Campaign had left. This is so funny. I checked our local op-ed page, and the conservatives were all howling that going to court was the wrong thing to do. And now their guy went to court to stop the counting. How embarrasing this must be for them!

This is proof that the Bush camp is very, very worried that the vote isn't going its way.

Thank goodness I live in Newport Beach, California where I rarely get "gored to death".

Elizabeth, you wondered why the media is allowed to project the winner in eastern states before polls close out west.

I think I remember that it used to be that the media called races in a state even before that state's polls closed. That really did discourage people from voting, so they voluntarily agreed to stop. Now, they call a race only after a state's polls have closed.

I personally don't have a problem with the current system. I used to live in California, and it didn't bother me at all that Vermont was already decided by the time I voted. Besides, are we all to wait around for results until the polls close in Hawaii?

Also, I am personally against "rolling" poll closings where polls close nationwide at the same time. People are busy and have commutes, etc. If polls close in the East at 8 and close in the West at 5, that makes it hard for people to vote after work, and turnout would be adversely affected. If anything, they should strive to keep the polls open a huge stretch of the day -- 6:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. -- because people have to vote at their homes, and commutes in urban areas make this very difficult.

It's not a great system, but it has worked perfectly well until now.

Does anyone know how Bush got that Band-Aid on his face? He looks like a real idiot with it.

An agreement between Congress and the network executives in 1985 (+/) stated they would not call states until the polls close. However, polls that are open late due to lines (sometimes via a court order) are open longer than the statewide closing, hence, some networks call even when some polls are open.

Bush had some heat applied to his face as medical treatment.

Actually, I think Mr. Bush tried to cut his own throat and missed.

Seriously, he apparently has a boil that had to be lanced or something. Our local paper reported that he is showing a few signs of stress, such as repeatedly forgetting the name of a reporter he knows well and stumbling over his words more than usual. Pretending to be the President really takes a lot out of a fellow, huh?

I haven't checked this thread in two days...

What if all those exit pollers were actually right when they projected a Gore win in Florida? This country came very close to letting Bush, the loser in the popular vote, assume the presidency on an "electoral inversion", which means an outcome opposite to the vote of the majority.

What happened after the exit polls is that the Florida election results were announced in the order most favorable to Bush (how did that happen?) causing the initial rush to judgment on the part of the networks that reversed the exit poll predictions. The reality is that the first official count in Florida had a slim 1,800+- margin for Bush. The second official count (two days later, and slow to be confirmed by the Republican Florida Secretary of State) has it at less than 330, and not completely certified. The over 19,000 spoiled ballots in Gore territory were most likely considered by exit-pollers in their early predictions.

Any claim to victory by Bush is tactical at best, and does not have any moral authority. If you are going to make the constitutional argument, then there cannot be abuse of process. Protecting citizens from abuse of process is the fundamental principle of our Bill of Rights. This is America, not Cuba. Even a Texas law that Bush signed calls for hand-counting of ballots in certain close elections, to ensure the accurate will of the people.

I agree that Bush's latest legal maneuverings to stop the hand count shows his true colors. If he is so certain he won, why does he need to object?

And Cindy, Lawrence Tribe made an interesting statement two days ago, which I happened to catch on VERY late night TV. His main point was that with this large of a number of double-punched ballots, it is imperative that the intent of the voters be considered. An exceedingly high public compelling interest applies here: the voting rights of the majority of the American people. He is fully supportive of these voters' rights coming under the review of the judicial system.

On the face of it, the butterfly ballot appears inconsistent with Florida state law, as Gore's name appears third. Pat Buchanan went on record as stating that the 3,000 some votes he got are not all his, and were a statistical anomaly. It has also been suggested that the Palm County ballot that was actually used was different from the samples that were printed in the newspapers prior to the election.

Let cool heads prevail, and remember what this country was founded on. If you are a Republican who wants to see Bush elected, try to see this in the larger context of our Constitutionl rights as Americans and as voters. Otherwise, what kind of respect would your President-Elect have from the majority of the American people? We have to go through the process ahead for there to be any kind of faith in the outcome, IMO.

THIS JUST IN TO OUR NEWSROOMS.....
(Beijing)
With 100% of all of the provinces reporting, Al Gore has defeated GW Bush in China by a margin of 98%.

Approximately one hour after voting, the Chinese felt like they could vote again.

Approximately 2 hrs later, it was reported that 2% of the population was sent to labor camps near the Mongolian border.

Film at 11!

Bulletin([email protected])
God really loves you!!!