Spent the weekend on the water and it was wonderful. No electricity, no TV, no news, the only radio an electronic voice saying "seas 2-4 ft, light chop on inland waters, winds 8-10 knots". Restorative!! So why am I here? We picked up the St. Pete Times when we came in and there was a most interesting article on Duval County's vote. Duval, with the same ballot used throughout the rest of the state, not the one used in PBC, had 23,000 votes tossed out because both presidential candidates had had their holes punched!

Now I'm getting up there too, and it's politically incorrect even to whisper this...but perhaps age truly is a huge factor in what happened. Geez louise, on our way to the marina we witnessed one snowbird car come to a dead stop in the far left lane of I-275 when they realized they'd just missed their exit. DH turned to me and said, "When I start doing that, push me out the door!"

Don't know how complete your news is outside the state, so excuse me if this is old news to everyone. Have you heard how subjective the hand count is? We have hanging chads, swinging chads (attached at the right or left), dimpled or pregnant. At first each ballot was held up to a light to see if any light showed through. If so, did that person mean to vote or has this happened in the handling. 1 person was holding it up, 3 looking and passing judgement on it. They got through 600 of those then decided it was too subjective and started over, evaluating chads, no light.

Love the comment from one talk show host: "So, Bush didn't win, Gore didn't win, let's just leave it at that" Hello Clinton. Think we'd all be relieved at the prospect, though I'd never have dreamed I'd have uttered those words a year ago!

Thank you Fodors for not removing this welcome discussion on the election. It DOES relate to travel......what an insight into watching Democracy at work and better understanding of a people. As an unbiased Canadian sitting up here watching, all I can say is that the system DOES work.......all actions are within Florida State Laws. One just has to have a little patience.

There is a tendency in this country to believe that something is more reliable if handled by a machine than by a human. In the case of counting votes, that simply is not the case.

The machines have an error rate, and different types of machines have different error rates. They are not perfect. Many election experts and state laws agree on one point: when the vote is close, a manual recount is the best way to get an accurate count. Period. Elections have been reversed many times with hand counts in state and local races.

The Florida presidential race vote count should be and will be governed by the application of Florida election law, which provides for manual recounts upon request of the candidate and approval of the county. I say we leave Florida alone and let them count their darn votes.

Been over to HI for the past few T'givng's and New Years.

Every time we go over we hear the same mantra, high unemployment, need more govt money.

I can see why somebody who lives there would be pro-Gore.

Warren Christopher, the former secretary of state and Gore's chief emissary stated "If Gov. Bush truly believes that he has won the election in Florida, he should not have any reason to doubt or to fear to have the machine count checked by a hand count."

Monte Friedkin, chairman of the Palm Beach County Democratic Party said: "I'm not surprised they asked for an injunction. And I'm certainly not surprised to find out that they think it is OK to count ballots by hand in Texas but not here. I know what they are afraid of, and they'll do anything they can to stop the truth from coming out."

Hey, Kal Kahuna is that you? Glad you like it here. Just to clarify, though. I'm a Democrat because I believe in the Democratic platform. There are some progressive Republicans out here, and I have occasionally voted for them. But as far as Hawaii goes, our economy is more tied to the Japanese ecomomy than to the U.S.' So while the mainland has been enjoying unprecedented prosperity over the last eight years in a Democratic administration, Hawaii is just now beginning to recover. Granted, we have problems like everywhere else, but we live in a tolerant society where people truly live Aloha. By the way, it's in the low eighties and overcast. We seem to be back to the normal wet winter pattern...the last two years have been a pleasant exception. Happy (and informed) travels!

D-Dubya-I has the perfect chance to live up to his mantra of leadership and being a uniter: since he lost the national vote, is behind in the electoral vote and pretty clearly lost the Florida vote on election day, HE should do the right thing: concede and go back to his Maytag repairman governor's job and catch up on his executions.

I have been wondering all weekend why Bush doesn't just ask for a recount in select Republican counties so that he can offset any votes Gore gets in the recounts he has sought. Sure, the deadlines to seek a recount have passed, but the Gore people don't oppose allowing Bush to do it, and pundits are calling for him to do it. So why file a losing, total dog of a lawsuit in federal court to stop all of the manual counting prematurely?

I heard an answer that sounds plausible. Manual recounts tend to pick up votes in areas that use punch cards. Machine counting of punch ballots leads to undercounting. In Florida, some counties use punch cards but others use optical scanners, like the ones used to read standardized tests. The optical scanners are much less likely to miss a vote.

Supposedly, the optical scanners cost a lot and are mostly used in Republican counties. So Bush is worried that all of the votes for him that are going to register have already been accurately counted by optical scanners, and a manual recount wouldn't help at all.

Hmmm.

Cindy, I've wondered why Bush hasn't asked for a recount in Republican counties too. Don't know what percentage of Republican-heavy counties used optical scanners, but our county (Hillsborough, which encompases Tampa and its suburbs), went to Bush and we voted using punch cards. Certainly hand counting a populous county such as ours would garner votes for Bush, counteracting at least some that Gore would pick up in a hand count of Democratic counties.

Don't agree that the wealthier counties are necessarily Republican or they are the ones using optical scanning devices. After all, Palm Beach County is one of the wealthiest counties in the state yet they are still using the punch card...(and they went Democratic). If you look at a map of the way the state voted, Bush took all but one county in the Panhandle, much of which is more rural, and with the exception of Orange and Osceola Counties took all the inland counties as well, also a less wealthy area (and thus presumably using punch cards?) In fact, of the 66 counties in FL, Gore won only 10. What would happen if the entire state, excluding those counties using optical scanners, had a manual recount? That certainly seems to be a more equitable solution than recounting only the heavily Democratic counties.

Olive, thank you again for discussing this issue so thoughtfully. Again, you raise a lot of good points, and you are a lot closer to the action than I am.

Bottom line, though, is that Bush must have decided he won't win a manual recount, and that is why he is taking such a high-risk strategy in the courts. Joe Lieberman said on TV this morning that the Democrats don't mind allowing Bush to seek recounts in any county where he thinks there has been an irregularity.

By the way, Olive, I heard a major network report that a Socialist candidate received 15,000 nationwide, including 9,000 from Florida, mostly in Volusia county. Volusia uses optical scanners, so some people think there is a computer glitch that infected both mechanical recounts. Heard anything about that? Wouldn't it be funny if those 9,000 votes go to Bush, and he wins on a manual recount?

First of all-Palm Beach County is not all Jewish retired people. There are a lot of blacks, Haitians, Cubans, etc. who live there! And a lot of these people can barely read, write and speak English and they are the ones who are voting! Last election they had to throw out over 15,000 miscast votes. IMO, people should be made to take a basic literacy test when they register to vote!

Secondly, Jesse Jackson, the professional agitator and the rest of the damn Yankees need to get the heck out of Florida and let the Florida officals handle the recount!

I'm with you Floridian - DITTO.

Dear Floridian--The last time I checked, the US was still a democracy where EVERYONE has the right to have their vote count. Don't disagree that Florida should handle Florida and others should not be there (except those representing the parties). However, the Republican Secretary of State is trying to thwart the manual recount. Of what are the Bushes afaid? Let's recount any state or portion if that is what it takes to be sure the right person is elected. Personally, I hope the out of country votes put Gore over the top & the whole thing disappears.

Carole,

You may want to check on that democracy thing again. I assume that the "last time" you checked was prior to 1788, when the Constitution was ratified, established the US as a Republic (not a Democracy)?

There is a significant difference, which people who want to do away with the electoral college tend to trivialize.

Well, Bush lost his stone cold loser of a lawsuit to have a federal court block the recounts. I have a question, though. Did he get thrown out of court or laughed out of court?

Get this, though. I heard today that Fox was the first network to call the race for Bush and run the graphic "President Elect Bush", despite a close race, very strange patterns in the data, and a lot of confusion. Guess who is the head of Fox's election night projection team? John Ellis, who is George Bush's cousin! (Source: NPR radio this afternoon).

Can this get any more strange?

A collegue posting on this thread told me I should offer my two cents worth. Honestly, this thread is becoming a home for pundits. FYI - check out the New Yorker article on the new orgs. located at 400 N. Cap. in DC. I believe some of you could quite easily qualify to replace some of the dunderheads Chris Matthews et al use to spout opinions. May use this one, so, ciao.

Let's face it - old Gorey Boy packed his little socialist tent and headed out of Tennessee as fast as his little hatchlings could get him out. He's a sorry loser who is nothing but pathetic at this time. Don't know if his little white knuckles will ever be the same after holding on so desperately to a race he has obviously lost. Waaah Waaah
little Albert.

The economy is going to go down soon with the rise in oil prices, mideast instability, rising inflation etc. So, it does not really matter who gets in anyway because they will be out in 4 years! And, even if Gore gets in he is going to have his hands tied with Congress. Bush, is not going to have a walk in the park with Congress either. McCain hates Bush's guts and he is a force in Congress. So, why are you all getting yourselves all workded up? Better to do something productive than try to figure this mess out!

Wait a minute, who's whining? Gore just gave a statement to the effect that he would not want to win an election with erroneous votes. The immediate Republican spin? Attack, attack, whine whine, scream scream. Methinks the Republicans protest too much.
Very interesting fact about the Fox election night projection team.

Cindy, My guess is that Bush took a strategical chance and hoped to stop the manual recount with his court challenge rather than demand one himself in all the Republican counties. I'm sure he stands to lose if only the populous Democratic counties are manually recounted and he hoped for a pre-emptive strike.

Though I probably shouldn't say this, it wouldn't surprise me too much if a socialist candidate did win 9,000 votes in Volusia County. It's an odd mix of characters there. The entire state is an odd mix of characters for that matter. Haven't heard anything about a computer glitch but I know they are well into a manual recount and expect to be finished by tomorrow, probably in time for the Secy of State's 5 PM deadline though they've filed for an extension just in case. Actually, after looking at the market futures this morning, then listening to Mat Lauer and Katie I decided it was time for me to head back to the boat and that's where I've spent the day, blissfully away from and unaware of, the news.

I agree with whomever wished the carpetbaggers out of FL. I do resent the Jessie Jacksons and William Daleys and various and sundry Secy's of State setting up camp here, telling the state how they should handle their affairs! And WHO was William Daley's daddy and what was he famous for saying? Mayor Daley: "Vote early and vote often". Swell.

Thought for the day: No matter who gets in now, 50% of the nation will feel he stole the election. This is not an original thought I hasten to add...I was listening to NPR on the way back from the boat.