Election Day
Nov 8th, 2000, 07:56 AM
#41
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Sharon, I'm curious about how you feel as a Nader voter this morning. Surely as a supporter of the Green party, Bush is a much more frightening choice for you on the environment than Gore! Did you not think Florida would be so close, or did you not care that Nader voters might hand the election to Bush? Why didn't you vote swap with a Gore supporter in TX, for instance.
I'll be really interested to hear from Nader supporters in close states today.
I'll be really interested to hear from Nader supporters in close states today.
Nov 8th, 2000, 08:15 AM
#44
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Good question, Andrea!
I flip-flopped between Gore and Nader and finally decided to vote my conscious in the end. I'm wondering (now) if that was wise...
At one point, I felt quite smug knowing I'd voted my heart and Gore still had Florida...as we know, thats all changed.
I knew Nader wouldn't win, but I felt I needed to support him, and maybe next time(?) he'll at least get to the debates!
Actually, I think all Nader voters in Florida should get to vote again!
Politics...Ugh!
I flip-flopped between Gore and Nader and finally decided to vote my conscious in the end. I'm wondering (now) if that was wise...
At one point, I felt quite smug knowing I'd voted my heart and Gore still had Florida...as we know, thats all changed.
I knew Nader wouldn't win, but I felt I needed to support him, and maybe next time(?) he'll at least get to the debates!
Actually, I think all Nader voters in Florida should get to vote again!
Politics...Ugh!
Nov 8th, 2000, 08:18 AM
#45
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Hi all:
Too many coincidences for my liking. Every time I hear something else, I get more and more suspicious.
Hey do you think George W's brother Jeb and the Republicans might have something to do with this? Nah, they WOULD NEVER do anything illegal.
Too many coincidences for my liking. Every time I hear something else, I get more and more suspicious.
Hey do you think George W's brother Jeb and the Republicans might have something to do with this? Nah, they WOULD NEVER do anything illegal.
Nov 10th, 2000, 01:07 AM
#48
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CNN reported today that ultra right wing candidate Pat "Buchanan himself expressed remorse that he may have garnered votes that weren't meant for him, telling NBC's Today program this morning: "My guess is, I probably got some votes down there that really did not belong to me, and I do not feel well about that. I don't want to take any votes that do not belong to me." BTW what the hell is a Dubya anyways? I know it has something to do with Junior but I don't know what or how.
Nov 10th, 2000, 01:31 AM
#49
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As a curious Britisher why will the Florida recount take so long ? In the US the 'Voting Cards' are counted by machine aren't they ( on the same principal as the old card readers on Mainframes - yes I've used them as I work in IT ! ) is it because of all the postal votes yet to come in ?
Nov 10th, 2000, 04:36 AM
#50
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Fwhiteside, The recount has been completed (by machine) and unofficially Bush has won FL by 327 votes. The absentee ballots aren't all in. They have until next Friday to be counted and it's generally felt that Bush will win that as well. The Gore camp wasn't satisfied with the machine count and has demanded a hand recount in four counties--3 of them have agreed to do so, two are in progress and one will begin tomorrow.
I hope everyone has seen an example of the ballot forms in question, forms designed by a Democrat and approved by a Republican prior to the election and mailed to all FL voters to look over before voting. I'm hard pressed to see how anyone was confused by them....there's an arrow drawn from the candidate right to the hole. What more can you ask for? If you can't figure that out maybe you shouldn't be voting.
I hope everyone has seen an example of the ballot forms in question, forms designed by a Democrat and approved by a Republican prior to the election and mailed to all FL voters to look over before voting. I'm hard pressed to see how anyone was confused by them....there's an arrow drawn from the candidate right to the hole. What more can you ask for? If you can't figure that out maybe you shouldn't be voting.
Nov 10th, 2000, 04:53 AM
#52
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Terry, Dubya is W, as in George W. Olive Oil, there is no way to tell how the overseas ballots will go. While it is generally accepted the ballots from military personnel will be for Bush, there are still many expected from Israel that will be for Gore. Also, hole punch ballots can be very confusing. We use them where I vote in Maryland, and if you aren't exceptionally vigilant, you can err, or your hole punch may not work (know many people this has happened to).
Nov 10th, 2000, 07:35 AM
#53
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Respectfully disagree about the hole punch voting method being either difficult or confusing, ilisa. As toddlers we become quite adept at sticking things in little holes and by voting age, that skill has been well honed. ;> And I doubt that any one of us has difficulty following an arrow or identifying what it is pointing to.
In my years of voting in various locations it's the method I've seen most often. Why the outcry now, after all these years, and after the fact?
The absentee ballots may make a difference, we'll see. The consensus is though, that when all are counted, the preponderance will be for Bush, not Gore.
For the good of the country my hope is that the two parties will agree in advance to accept the results of the recount, wait on the absentee ballots (next Friday's deadline), and that the loser will graciously concede and urge his supporters to drop their legal challenges. Further, let's hope the President-elect reacts to the fact that there has been no mandate, and in the spirit of reunifying the nation, he will attempt to achieve some sort of coalition government and we can move forward out of this muck!
In my years of voting in various locations it's the method I've seen most often. Why the outcry now, after all these years, and after the fact?
The absentee ballots may make a difference, we'll see. The consensus is though, that when all are counted, the preponderance will be for Bush, not Gore.
For the good of the country my hope is that the two parties will agree in advance to accept the results of the recount, wait on the absentee ballots (next Friday's deadline), and that the loser will graciously concede and urge his supporters to drop their legal challenges. Further, let's hope the President-elect reacts to the fact that there has been no mandate, and in the spirit of reunifying the nation, he will attempt to achieve some sort of coalition government and we can move forward out of this muck!
Nov 10th, 2000, 08:06 AM
#54
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When I received my sample ballot in the mail, I checked it out very carefully. Then, after voting, I again checked to see that I had done everything correctly. If the voters in Palm Beach County claim they are confused, then it's their own fault. We live in an era where, if you make a mistake, you don't take responsibility; you find someone to blame. It crosses all levels of society, led by our current President, soon to be first husband of New York.
Nov 10th, 2000, 09:22 AM
#55
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I've been following all of this pretty carefully because it is fascinating. Lots of people are saying that anyone confused has only themselves to blame.
Actually it is not that simple. Yes, we all know that if you screw up your own ballot through inattention, you lose your vote.
But this is different. The ballot was illegal because it violated Florida law. (The Florida law says the holes must be to the right of the Candidate's name, and Buchanan's hole was to the left). That much is known and undisputable. So the question is whether you hold people responsible for screwing up a ballot that violated a Florida law designed to prevent exactly this type of confusion.
If you decide these 23,000 people should not be held responsible for misvoting an illegal Florida ballot, then what? If there is an election law violation that wrongfully disenfranchised lots of people, you need a remedy. The only plausible remedy anyone has proposed is a revote for the people in that county who actually voted on election day.
Note that I am not arguing that Bush or Gore is correct. I just think the media is doing a dreadful job of explaining it. Where is Lawrence Tribe when you need him?
Actually it is not that simple. Yes, we all know that if you screw up your own ballot through inattention, you lose your vote.
But this is different. The ballot was illegal because it violated Florida law. (The Florida law says the holes must be to the right of the Candidate's name, and Buchanan's hole was to the left). That much is known and undisputable. So the question is whether you hold people responsible for screwing up a ballot that violated a Florida law designed to prevent exactly this type of confusion.
If you decide these 23,000 people should not be held responsible for misvoting an illegal Florida ballot, then what? If there is an election law violation that wrongfully disenfranchised lots of people, you need a remedy. The only plausible remedy anyone has proposed is a revote for the people in that county who actually voted on election day.
Note that I am not arguing that Bush or Gore is correct. I just think the media is doing a dreadful job of explaining it. Where is Lawrence Tribe when you need him?
Nov 10th, 2000, 10:17 AM
#57
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It's obvious Cindy is a DemocRAT. If you read the whole Florida law (and not stop when you get to the part you like), it states that the ballot used was the correct one for machine read ballots. The part of the law Cindy is referring to only pertains to hand marked ballots. I suppose Gorey Boy will still try to have people revoting 6 months from now til he corrupts enough ballots to get the results he wants. Can you say COMMUNISM.
Nov 10th, 2000, 10:25 AM
#58
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This is an interesting thread. Lets hope for an outcome soon. I undestand that in NY today, they gave folks a copy of the PBC ballot, and most were able to successfully punch the hole correctly. An unbiased test if I ever saw one. But yes, OO, I agree about the skills we learn at an early age. I know one thing - I'm taking my own hole puncher with me to the polls next time. Or I may request an absentee ballot so I can assemble a team of hole punching experts to give me a hand. I am taking no chances. There is one bright spot in all of this - Ralph will not be spending our tax money next time. He did nothing four years ago and garnered one percent. This time he drove his 66-year old body and delivered a whopping 3 or so. Unsafe at any speed. Have a good weekend, and reef that main, Ms. O.
Nov 10th, 2000, 10:40 AM
#59
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I guarantee you couldn't have found even a handful of people who thought FL law stated the punch holes must be to the right of a name not left. That was not the source of confusion. (And I'm not sure if it was or was not a law...perhaps it was, I just don't know).
First things first. Election officials changed the ballot. Democratic election officials changed it, not Republican. Republicans reviewed it and approved it, and for the nth time, those ballots were mailed in advance to the voters for review. As a previous poster did, I too went over mine thoroughly before voting, including the 6 local Amendments and Referendums that were so confusingly worded each took several re-readings to decide what they were actually saying. I brought that list, checked as to how I'd deciphered them, into the voting booth with me so I could vote responsibly. They had the same opportunity.
Secondly, the number I've heard is 19,000, not 23,000, but I won't nit pick. It's still alot. Any double punched ballot is invalid. Any voter could have gotten a new ballot had they made an error. Further, any number of people are only "wondering" if they made a mistake in the way they voted...they aren't sure. One man is quoted in the paper as saying, "One of my bosses didn't have his glasses on in the booth and he thinks he voted for the wrong guy". So he deserves to vote another time? Sounds like grade school!(And again, the ballot change was made to increase the size of the lettering for those with failing eyesight).
Thirdly, how can you possibly have a revote at this point? You could limit it to only those who voted that day, but do you say..."now, Mr. and Mrs Voter, you are on the honor system. If, in protest, you voted Buchanan or Nader the first go around, you are obligated to vote them again, you cannot change that vote, now that you know it really does count, to Gore or Bush"? Sure they will. Is that a fair resolution? (By the way, this is not the first year or election that Buchanan received alot of votes from that particular county)
Lastly, what possible good can come from adjudication? It can't be revoted fairly, the double votes must be tossed out, the votes have been counted and recounted by hand. What other alternatives are there? Adjudication can serve no purpose other than delaying the inevitable, and widening the rift that is rapidly growing between the two sides throughout the entire country, not just in this state.
I know I know this isn't travel...sorry!
First things first. Election officials changed the ballot. Democratic election officials changed it, not Republican. Republicans reviewed it and approved it, and for the nth time, those ballots were mailed in advance to the voters for review. As a previous poster did, I too went over mine thoroughly before voting, including the 6 local Amendments and Referendums that were so confusingly worded each took several re-readings to decide what they were actually saying. I brought that list, checked as to how I'd deciphered them, into the voting booth with me so I could vote responsibly. They had the same opportunity.
Secondly, the number I've heard is 19,000, not 23,000, but I won't nit pick. It's still alot. Any double punched ballot is invalid. Any voter could have gotten a new ballot had they made an error. Further, any number of people are only "wondering" if they made a mistake in the way they voted...they aren't sure. One man is quoted in the paper as saying, "One of my bosses didn't have his glasses on in the booth and he thinks he voted for the wrong guy". So he deserves to vote another time? Sounds like grade school!(And again, the ballot change was made to increase the size of the lettering for those with failing eyesight).
Thirdly, how can you possibly have a revote at this point? You could limit it to only those who voted that day, but do you say..."now, Mr. and Mrs Voter, you are on the honor system. If, in protest, you voted Buchanan or Nader the first go around, you are obligated to vote them again, you cannot change that vote, now that you know it really does count, to Gore or Bush"? Sure they will. Is that a fair resolution? (By the way, this is not the first year or election that Buchanan received alot of votes from that particular county)
Lastly, what possible good can come from adjudication? It can't be revoted fairly, the double votes must be tossed out, the votes have been counted and recounted by hand. What other alternatives are there? Adjudication can serve no purpose other than delaying the inevitable, and widening the rift that is rapidly growing between the two sides throughout the entire country, not just in this state.
I know I know this isn't travel...sorry!
Nov 10th, 2000, 10:47 AM
#60
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The same people who frothed at the mouth and spent five years and millions of taxpayer dollars to investigate one land deal now want to tell us that there doesn't need to be any investigation here, oh no, everything's fine.
The original news calls were right - Gore carried Florida. It was only after the media called it that it miraculously "reversed" (Thanks Jeb! Whoops, sorry, I meant Jesus) and became Bush country. Or Bush-Whacked. Hey, if I threw away tens of thousands of votes for my opponent, I could win too! Florida is not exactly unknown for rigged elections - the Miami Herald won a Pulitzer Prize for exposing past election corruption in that state.
The popular vote tells the story. And not only did Al win, but if you add all the Nader, Buchanan and other votes to Al's votes, that's a VAST majority who did NOT vote for Bush.
The original news calls were right - Gore carried Florida. It was only after the media called it that it miraculously "reversed" (Thanks Jeb! Whoops, sorry, I meant Jesus) and became Bush country. Or Bush-Whacked. Hey, if I threw away tens of thousands of votes for my opponent, I could win too! Florida is not exactly unknown for rigged elections - the Miami Herald won a Pulitzer Prize for exposing past election corruption in that state.
The popular vote tells the story. And not only did Al win, but if you add all the Nader, Buchanan and other votes to Al's votes, that's a VAST majority who did NOT vote for Bush.
