anyone else see this?
Mar 1st, 2003, 06:16 AM
#41
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This doesn't scare me at all. And as far as lifting the literal words of our founding fathers, I'm all for it if it is done consistently but so many that I see use the actual words when it is convenient and then say the constitution is a 'flexible' document.
Mar 2nd, 2003, 02:38 PM
#42
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Was my Orwell reference a bit much? I will have to re-read it myself, it has been years. But as I recall-
The nation was at war. The people didn't know just who the enemy was, but they were at war.
The goverment knew all, or most. And saw as well - cameras everywhere.
One thing about all this that frosts me is the name "Patriot Act"... oh please! This tactic so that anyone opposed could conveniently labeled "unpatriotic". Was not this country founded by those "unpatriotic" to the king? The ability to question our government is what makes this government what it is, or has been.
Until it can be proven to me that ONLY the ticket surcharges are funding this new bureacracy, then I for one do not wish to be funding it with my taxes.
The nation was at war. The people didn't know just who the enemy was, but they were at war.
The goverment knew all, or most. And saw as well - cameras everywhere.
One thing about all this that frosts me is the name "Patriot Act"... oh please! This tactic so that anyone opposed could conveniently labeled "unpatriotic". Was not this country founded by those "unpatriotic" to the king? The ability to question our government is what makes this government what it is, or has been.
Until it can be proven to me that ONLY the ticket surcharges are funding this new bureacracy, then I for one do not wish to be funding it with my taxes.
Mar 2nd, 2003, 06:17 PM
#43
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Oh, chill, everyone. As I've written on the parallel thread to this, it's TOO LATE. All this information is already available to any commercial interest, any employer, any retailer, any creditor, so what makes an airline any different? If you were worried about this, the time to howl and whinge was way back when the regulatory agencies were turning a blind eye to any efforts to tighten up the whole area of credit reporting in the private sector. This is probably one of the few semi-reasonable uses of this information -- might have caught at least some of the 9/11 hijackers because they probably had odd credit history or none at all.
Mar 3rd, 2003, 10:52 AM
#44
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Diana,
I don't expect you to subscribe to my point of view, nor I to yours. I responded to your initial post since you seemed to suggest that everyone thinks (or should think) as you do. I was just pointing out that this is not the case. Actually a recent poll by CNN showed that the majority of respondents were NOT in favor of the implementation of this program (which I suspect you'll find extremely difficult to believe as it doesn't correspond to your own personal views).
I don't expect you to subscribe to my point of view, nor I to yours. I responded to your initial post since you seemed to suggest that everyone thinks (or should think) as you do. I was just pointing out that this is not the case. Actually a recent poll by CNN showed that the majority of respondents were NOT in favor of the implementation of this program (which I suspect you'll find extremely difficult to believe as it doesn't correspond to your own personal views).
Mar 3rd, 2003, 11:14 AM
#45
What really tees me off about this is the idea that both the airlines and the Homeland Security Dept. will be able to cross-reference my Kroger's "discount" card and will see how often I buy HoHos and full-fat milk. Talk about totalitarianism.
Mar 3rd, 2003, 11:30 AM
#46
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Patty,
Frankly, it matters not to me whether you or anyone else agrees with me.
My points were simply that I feel that anyone who does not want to comply with additional security measures can easily avoid them by making alternative plans for travel.
Additionally, anyone who wants to lessen the chance of being a victim of terrorism should be amenable to a certain amount of inconvenience and information-gathering, if that's what is necessary to protect travellers.
It's my opinion, just as yours is yours.
Or, as you said "which I suspect you'll find extremely difficult to believe as it doesn't correspond to your own personal views."
Frankly, it matters not to me whether you or anyone else agrees with me.
My points were simply that I feel that anyone who does not want to comply with additional security measures can easily avoid them by making alternative plans for travel.
Additionally, anyone who wants to lessen the chance of being a victim of terrorism should be amenable to a certain amount of inconvenience and information-gathering, if that's what is necessary to protect travellers.
It's my opinion, just as yours is yours.
Or, as you said "which I suspect you'll find extremely difficult to believe as it doesn't correspond to your own personal views."
Mar 3rd, 2003, 12:57 PM
#47
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Well, I'm not so sure that "easily avoid them by making alternative plans for travel" is true. In many cases there aren't too many alternatives, much less easy ones, especially when one has to cross an ocean.
I think there's potential for a system of assigning color codes to every individual traveler to 'mis-categorize' a certain percentage of innocent people. Would these people then be subjected to scrutiny or worse, denied boarding, at every airport? I've also seen examples of abuse of power by those in authority, whether it be airport security or INS agents, and worry about the mis-use of such information. And I'm still trying to figure out how looking at everyone's financial or credit data is supposed to make us safer.
I think there's potential for a system of assigning color codes to every individual traveler to 'mis-categorize' a certain percentage of innocent people. Would these people then be subjected to scrutiny or worse, denied boarding, at every airport? I've also seen examples of abuse of power by those in authority, whether it be airport security or INS agents, and worry about the mis-use of such information. And I'm still trying to figure out how looking at everyone's financial or credit data is supposed to make us safer.
Mar 3rd, 2003, 01:42 PM
#48
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I think most folk see profiling as something you do too "muslims". and since "im a upstanding white person who drives a volvo" I will have no problems..
that may be the case for now, that is untill a group that you belong too gets demonized and targeted. let say for instace Jewish lesbiens become a national securiety issue. then you'd kind of wish you card did not say Rosenberg since you will be interigated..
and remember Jose Pedilla. everyone is looking for arabs and this supposed Al quida member looks more like me and is Puerto Rican
that may be the case for now, that is untill a group that you belong too gets demonized and targeted. let say for instace Jewish lesbiens become a national securiety issue. then you'd kind of wish you card did not say Rosenberg since you will be interigated..
and remember Jose Pedilla. everyone is looking for arabs and this supposed Al quida member looks more like me and is Puerto Rican
Mar 3rd, 2003, 08:23 PM
#49
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well said, orgy7. I would want to see the reaction of those who say they don't mind, in the instance that they are a "red". Mistakes happen, you know. like how many people have had mistakes on their credit report? same way you can get a code red when traveling.
Those who "don't mind" giving up rights don't know how it is to live with no rights.
Those who "don't mind" giving up rights don't know how it is to live with no rights.
Mar 3rd, 2003, 08:45 PM
#50
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orgy7, Luli,
Gee, how many of the 9/11 highjackers looked like Jose Padilla?? NOT ONE!! They all fit the profile of a Middle Eastern male (ie: from Saudi Arabia and Egypt). Profiling is the ONLY way to keep America safe from further terrorism. Like it or not, that is a fact of life that we will have to live with. I am all for background checks and searches through my luggage, and especially of those who "fit the profile." I do not in the least bit mind inconvenience when traveling if it means having a safe trip.
Gee, how many of the 9/11 highjackers looked like Jose Padilla?? NOT ONE!! They all fit the profile of a Middle Eastern male (ie: from Saudi Arabia and Egypt). Profiling is the ONLY way to keep America safe from further terrorism. Like it or not, that is a fact of life that we will have to live with. I am all for background checks and searches through my luggage, and especially of those who "fit the profile." I do not in the least bit mind inconvenience when traveling if it means having a safe trip.
Mar 4th, 2003, 03:59 AM
#52
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Those of you who are so vigorously applauding this program - and are so very willing to offer yourselves up for judgement by an unnamed bureaucracy - did you read through to the final paragraph?
"Nine to 11 of the 19 hijackers on September 11 were flagged by the original CAPPS, but weren't searched because the system gave a pass to passengers who didn't check their bags, Hudson said. People without checked bags are now included."
"Nine to 11 of the 19 hijackers on September 11 were flagged by the original CAPPS, but weren't searched because the system gave a pass to passengers who didn't check their bags, Hudson said. People without checked bags are now included."
Mar 4th, 2003, 06:05 AM
#53
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I have nothing to hide.....but....
I wonder if some of you people would feel differently if, when you checked in, you were denied boarding. Who would you complain to? How could you get your name cleared? Wouln't thatmean you cold never fly again?
With so many problems in credit reports( think of the people that have been through identity theft)....there surely would be innnocent people labelled as problems.
At one point the government talked of having mailmen and cable tv installers etc report on houses they visit. There is way too much chance for inaccurate info or innuendo to get into files.
And what makes you think that the next terrorist act will be with a plane?
I'm concered about poison gas in subways and flying with unchecked cargo on the plane.
The reality is, there is no way to be 100% protected.
PS. I am totally in favor of profiling people that look or act suspicious and singling them out for further scrutiny.
I wonder if some of you people would feel differently if, when you checked in, you were denied boarding. Who would you complain to? How could you get your name cleared? Wouln't thatmean you cold never fly again?
With so many problems in credit reports( think of the people that have been through identity theft)....there surely would be innnocent people labelled as problems.
At one point the government talked of having mailmen and cable tv installers etc report on houses they visit. There is way too much chance for inaccurate info or innuendo to get into files.
And what makes you think that the next terrorist act will be with a plane?
I'm concered about poison gas in subways and flying with unchecked cargo on the plane.
The reality is, there is no way to be 100% protected.
PS. I am totally in favor of profiling people that look or act suspicious and singling them out for further scrutiny.
Mar 4th, 2003, 09:21 AM
#54
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kam, I totaly agree w you, as you totally made my point. I didn't mind when luggage was checked, took my boots off 3 times etc. I am all for security measures. And I'm a caucasian female.
I live in NY, I still didn't get over what happened, my heart still goes bunkers every single day when I pass the bridge to Manhattan and see the void. This being said, I don't like how one by one, every institution and agency and company is doing background checks on me. Not that I'd have something to hide, not at all. (And believe me, my financial background would be a snap to check.) Point is that I can envision a world where we'd all have UPC's on our foreheads (I'll let you immagine the world that would be).
And, I read whining posts all the time about flight delays and such - I was just wondering how an innocent passenger would react to being strip searched and/or denied boarding just because they were labeled red. By the way, what would happen if you're a yellow? you have an air marshall as your companion on the flight, going with you to the bathroom? just wondering.
p.s. re: security measures - a friend of mine got his nail clippers confiscated in an aeroport in Europe. After the security check he found nail clippers and scissors for sale at the duty free shops.
I live in NY, I still didn't get over what happened, my heart still goes bunkers every single day when I pass the bridge to Manhattan and see the void. This being said, I don't like how one by one, every institution and agency and company is doing background checks on me. Not that I'd have something to hide, not at all. (And believe me, my financial background would be a snap to check.) Point is that I can envision a world where we'd all have UPC's on our foreheads (I'll let you immagine the world that would be).
And, I read whining posts all the time about flight delays and such - I was just wondering how an innocent passenger would react to being strip searched and/or denied boarding just because they were labeled red. By the way, what would happen if you're a yellow? you have an air marshall as your companion on the flight, going with you to the bathroom? just wondering.
p.s. re: security measures - a friend of mine got his nail clippers confiscated in an aeroport in Europe. After the security check he found nail clippers and scissors for sale at the duty free shops.
Mar 5th, 2003, 04:56 AM
#55
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I'm just curious, but I really wonder...of those who have expressed opinions here vehemently IN FAVOR of this latest bit of governmental intrusion in our lives - how many are vehemently AGAINST gun control - because "the government has no right to say whether I can have a gun?"
Mar 5th, 2003, 05:52 AM
#56
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There is one thing history has taught us: Scared white people make foolish policies (Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, McCarthyism to name a few). There was always a threat of attack before 9/11; it was not the birth of this concept called "terrorism," like so many people seem to think. Of course, we need to do what we can to ensure passangers' safety, through common sense. The government should focus on the fundamentals--securing the airport, planes, passangers. After all, if there are no guns, knives, bombs, etc. around, there is no problem. If the governement could do this well, air travel would be quite safe.
Checking people's credit is nothing but an extension of the mostly unfounded hysteria that has gripped this nation since 9/11. It is true that credit reports are easily obtainable, but that does not mean that they should be officially scrutinized when buying a ticket. Would you like the government to consider your medical records to see if you are fit enough to be on a plane? Scouring credit records would provide a false sense of security at a greater price of another aspect of privacy lost and the potential for abuse. After all, when was the last time the government did anything concerning ordinary people well, impartially, and above all, privately?
I hate to say it, but there is a certain risk that we take living in a free society. We can only do so much to protect ourselves, beyond that, it is up to the fickle hand of fate. Sure, it would be safer in a police state, but then, the terrorists have already won, as our way of life would have been destroyed. The real tragic thing is that it wasn't the terrorists who did it, but a bunch of scared white people. Are American principles going to prevail, or are they going to be reduced to mere aspirations? We will see.
Checking people's credit is nothing but an extension of the mostly unfounded hysteria that has gripped this nation since 9/11. It is true that credit reports are easily obtainable, but that does not mean that they should be officially scrutinized when buying a ticket. Would you like the government to consider your medical records to see if you are fit enough to be on a plane? Scouring credit records would provide a false sense of security at a greater price of another aspect of privacy lost and the potential for abuse. After all, when was the last time the government did anything concerning ordinary people well, impartially, and above all, privately?
I hate to say it, but there is a certain risk that we take living in a free society. We can only do so much to protect ourselves, beyond that, it is up to the fickle hand of fate. Sure, it would be safer in a police state, but then, the terrorists have already won, as our way of life would have been destroyed. The real tragic thing is that it wasn't the terrorists who did it, but a bunch of scared white people. Are American principles going to prevail, or are they going to be reduced to mere aspirations? We will see.
Mar 5th, 2003, 06:54 AM
#57
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gadfly... LOL.. so true..
"as long as it is not im my neighberhood"
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I personaly have no problem with having my stuff checked or getting profiled since I'm kind of like TERMINATOR 2, I can look like every man ..I've been mistaken for being Italian. Peruvian ,Lebanees. Philipino.. and I tend too get searched and questioned more since Im a young man travaling solo and sometimes go too questionable third world counties.. but thats the way it is, and I'm used too it.. yet I don't think my personal opinion relates too a society as a whole..
"as long as it is not im my neighberhood"
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I personaly have no problem with having my stuff checked or getting profiled since I'm kind of like TERMINATOR 2, I can look like every man ..I've been mistaken for being Italian. Peruvian ,Lebanees. Philipino.. and I tend too get searched and questioned more since Im a young man travaling solo and sometimes go too questionable third world counties.. but thats the way it is, and I'm used too it.. yet I don't think my personal opinion relates too a society as a whole..
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