anyone else see this?
Feb 28th, 2003, 04:02 PM
#21
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Diana,
Please don't make such broad generalizations. I fit into all of the categories that you describe above, and I DO have a problem with this. I agree with AA that living in a free society comes with inherent risks. What scares me more than terrorism is all of the people here that would blindly and happily go along with anything our government does as long as "it's for our own safety".
Please don't make such broad generalizations. I fit into all of the categories that you describe above, and I DO have a problem with this. I agree with AA that living in a free society comes with inherent risks. What scares me more than terrorism is all of the people here that would blindly and happily go along with anything our government does as long as "it's for our own safety".
Feb 28th, 2003, 04:04 PM
#22
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Idiotic, cheese-brained, sheep. Someday your great or great-great grandchildren will have government cameras in their homes and subdermal tracking implants -- but they won't mind, it will certainly be for their own safety. We're being nickle & dimed into captivity.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ? Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
The willingness some Americans have to throw away their basic rights can be astounding. For the first time in the annual State of the First Amendment survey, almost half (49%) of those surveyed said the First Amendment goes too far in the rights it guarantees ? a 10-percentage-point jump from 2001, which suggests new public concerns after the wake of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.
The State of the First Amendment 2002 survey report was released in a media briefing at the National Press Club.
"The stakes have risen for the First Amendment in the wake of September 11," said Ken Paulson, executive director of the First Amendment Center. "The results of our 2002 survey suggest that many Americans view these fundamental freedoms as possible obstacles in the war on terrorism." In 2001, 39% of those surveyed said the First Amendment went too far in the rights it guarantees. ? freedomforum.org: New 'State of the First Amendment' survey suggests many Americans see freedoms as obstacles in war on terror
The article goes on to mention the following additional findings:
* About half of those surveyed said the American press has been too aggressive in asking government officials for information about the war on terrorism.
* More than four in 10 said they would limit the academic freedom of professors and bar criticism of government military policy.
* About half of those surveyed said government should be able to monitor religious groups in the interest of national security, even if that means infringing upon religious freedom.
* More than four in 10 said the government should have greater power to monitor the activities of Muslims living in the United States than it does other religious groups.
About 40% of those surveyed said they have too little access to information about the government?s war on terrorism, compared to 16% who said there?s too much. Forty-eight percent of those surveyed said there?s too little access to government records, compared to just 8% who believe there?s too much.
The least popular First Amendment right once again was freedom of the press. Forty-two percent of respondents said the press in America has too much freedom to do what it wants, roughly the same level as last year.
The survey also found, as in previous years, that many Americans are unable to name the five freedoms guaranteed in the First Amendment. The percentages of those responding who were able to identify individual freedoms:
* 58% ? freedom of speech
* 18% ? freedom of religion
* 14% ? freedom of the press
* 10% ? freedom of assembly/association
* 2% ? freedom of petition
The national survey of 1,000 respondents was conducted by Center for Survey Research and Analysis at the University of Connecticut by telephone between June 12 and July 5, 2002. The sampling error is plus-or-minus 3%.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." ? Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
The willingness some Americans have to throw away their basic rights can be astounding. For the first time in the annual State of the First Amendment survey, almost half (49%) of those surveyed said the First Amendment goes too far in the rights it guarantees ? a 10-percentage-point jump from 2001, which suggests new public concerns after the wake of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.
The State of the First Amendment 2002 survey report was released in a media briefing at the National Press Club.
"The stakes have risen for the First Amendment in the wake of September 11," said Ken Paulson, executive director of the First Amendment Center. "The results of our 2002 survey suggest that many Americans view these fundamental freedoms as possible obstacles in the war on terrorism." In 2001, 39% of those surveyed said the First Amendment went too far in the rights it guarantees. ? freedomforum.org: New 'State of the First Amendment' survey suggests many Americans see freedoms as obstacles in war on terror
The article goes on to mention the following additional findings:
* About half of those surveyed said the American press has been too aggressive in asking government officials for information about the war on terrorism.
* More than four in 10 said they would limit the academic freedom of professors and bar criticism of government military policy.
* About half of those surveyed said government should be able to monitor religious groups in the interest of national security, even if that means infringing upon religious freedom.
* More than four in 10 said the government should have greater power to monitor the activities of Muslims living in the United States than it does other religious groups.
About 40% of those surveyed said they have too little access to information about the government?s war on terrorism, compared to 16% who said there?s too much. Forty-eight percent of those surveyed said there?s too little access to government records, compared to just 8% who believe there?s too much.
The least popular First Amendment right once again was freedom of the press. Forty-two percent of respondents said the press in America has too much freedom to do what it wants, roughly the same level as last year.
The survey also found, as in previous years, that many Americans are unable to name the five freedoms guaranteed in the First Amendment. The percentages of those responding who were able to identify individual freedoms:
* 58% ? freedom of speech
* 18% ? freedom of religion
* 14% ? freedom of the press
* 10% ? freedom of assembly/association
* 2% ? freedom of petition
The national survey of 1,000 respondents was conducted by Center for Survey Research and Analysis at the University of Connecticut by telephone between June 12 and July 5, 2002. The sampling error is plus-or-minus 3%.
Feb 28th, 2003, 04:11 PM
#25
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Patty,
Then I have an extremely simple solution for you...
DON'T FLY!
If you balk at security measures that are being put in to place to protect your ungrateful self, DON'T FLY!
If you object to your personal information being "invaded" to determine your presence as a security risk, DON'T FLY!
If you don't want to be "inconvenienced" with the time required to conduct additional security measures, DON'T FLY!
Take a train, rent a car, stay home, but don't expect me to subscribe to your milquetoast views in the name of "personal freedom."
It's your choice and mine to do what we want.
Conduct your personal "protest" by staying home and not traveling.
I am already planning my next international trip and will happily take off my shoes, turn my carry-on luggage inside out and strip at the gate if necessary.
After all, that's what clean underwear and going to the gym are for
Then I have an extremely simple solution for you...
DON'T FLY!
If you balk at security measures that are being put in to place to protect your ungrateful self, DON'T FLY!
If you object to your personal information being "invaded" to determine your presence as a security risk, DON'T FLY!
If you don't want to be "inconvenienced" with the time required to conduct additional security measures, DON'T FLY!
Take a train, rent a car, stay home, but don't expect me to subscribe to your milquetoast views in the name of "personal freedom."
It's your choice and mine to do what we want.
Conduct your personal "protest" by staying home and not traveling.
I am already planning my next international trip and will happily take off my shoes, turn my carry-on luggage inside out and strip at the gate if necessary.
After all, that's what clean underwear and going to the gym are for
Feb 28th, 2003, 04:15 PM
#27
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DB,
Time for you to get a bunch of canned goods, automatic weaponry and camouflage gear and move to the North Carolina mountains with Eric Rudolph.
By the way, don't forget to bring along your anti-schizophrenia medication.
(The voices, the VOICES!!!!!!)
Time for you to get a bunch of canned goods, automatic weaponry and camouflage gear and move to the North Carolina mountains with Eric Rudolph.
By the way, don't forget to bring along your anti-schizophrenia medication.
(The voices, the VOICES!!!!!!)
Feb 28th, 2003, 04:15 PM
#28
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Be careful when you start using phrases like, "if you have nothing to hide they you shouldn't have a problem with searches." This is exactly the thing Nazis said to people, exactly the thing our wacky government said to people during the McCarthy hearings. I agree, DavidDJ that these security measures do not mean all our personal liberties are being stripped from us, but it is something we can never be too vigilant about. Quoting Ben Franklin might seem archiac in these trying modern times, but our forefathers lived through their share of terrorism, turmoil and persecution. The founding principles of this country were not decided upon lightly, nor with as much speed as the many knee-jerk policies our Homeland Security department has created. Let's hope we never consider the words of our own Constitution outdated.
Feb 28th, 2003, 04:29 PM
#29
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And, by the way, I do consider it an invasion of my privacy when a government worker goes through my bags with a fine tooth comb, pulling out my personal belongings and holding them up for all to see. I will tolerate this because as others have said I am choosing to fly. However, where does it end? When I walk into a government building I should tolerate the same? What about schools, hospitals, office buildings? Will we reach a point eventually when we will expect to be searched and have our "papers" checked on a daily basis?
Feb 28th, 2003, 04:35 PM
#30
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Oh Jeeez, does every debate, regardless of the subject, have to include a mention of Nazis??? Can you not think of some example more closely related to this subject?
Searches have been going on at airports since Sept 11th, they have already been profiling in many aspects of our lives since then.
This is just making it official and letting the public know how and why they are doing it.
Way before Sept 11th, in a Paris train station, I saw well armed police with dogs, take a young man, put him against a wall and search him, question him in full view of the entire station, then walk away. I have not seen that happen here yet.
Imagine if Richard the Shoe Bomber had been part of the profile. They might have taken a closer look and perhaps checked out his shoes. Instead, thanks to passengers and flight attendants he ws stopped from blowing up the plane.
Is that the chance you want to take in order to avoid the "stigma" of being profiled? Being classified?
It is a different world. Quotes from Ben Franklin are nice but might as well be referring to people on Mars, we are so far away from the times he lived in.
TOday we have to worry about every person that walks into a store,theatre,airport,stadium,train..get used to it.
Why would North Korea make you happier, AA?
Searches have been going on at airports since Sept 11th, they have already been profiling in many aspects of our lives since then.
This is just making it official and letting the public know how and why they are doing it.
Way before Sept 11th, in a Paris train station, I saw well armed police with dogs, take a young man, put him against a wall and search him, question him in full view of the entire station, then walk away. I have not seen that happen here yet.
Imagine if Richard the Shoe Bomber had been part of the profile. They might have taken a closer look and perhaps checked out his shoes. Instead, thanks to passengers and flight attendants he ws stopped from blowing up the plane.
Is that the chance you want to take in order to avoid the "stigma" of being profiled? Being classified?
It is a different world. Quotes from Ben Franklin are nice but might as well be referring to people on Mars, we are so far away from the times he lived in.
TOday we have to worry about every person that walks into a store,theatre,airport,stadium,train..get used to it.
Why would North Korea make you happier, AA?
Feb 28th, 2003, 04:58 PM
#31
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What's humorous to me is that the people who complain here about gov't overreach make no mention of the Stalinist tactics of Fodors -- such as instantly indexing every post by registered users.
That is typical of the double standards so common by the worker's world group.
As for gov't "invasion of privacy," I work in lower Manhattan and know a lot of people who died there. IMO, the gov't can read all my email and listen or my phone calls all the time if that will make me safer. If you other losers have a problem with that maybe you are immature a--holes who haven't suffered real losses.
Feb 28th, 2003, 05:14 PM
#32
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Let's say and Irish (just for instance - nothing meant by it) woman is caught trying to board a plane w/explosive materials... your grandmother was Irish, and you are profiled as 1/4 Irish. What are the odds of you getting on a plane after that?!
Feb 28th, 2003, 05:22 PM
#34
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The voices in my head keep telling me that you're not paranoid if they're really after you (and, why does mom & dad always think Marcia is so perfect?).
Milquetoast is what those are who fear so much, their willing to give it all away in the name of their own safety -- "ohhh please take care of me, the world is so dangerous." Where's your backbone - coward? Laws will never make your street perfectly safe, let alone this world or this universe -- that IS a quest of the insane (ahhh, travel related). Travel has ALWAYS had elements of danger attached to it, so don't use it as an excuse for further invasion of privacy. Watchout... if the terrorists don't get you, maybe an iceberg will.
Please always remember and never forget, the NUMBER ONE cause that leads to death throughout the world is...
Life!
Milquetoast is what those are who fear so much, their willing to give it all away in the name of their own safety -- "ohhh please take care of me, the world is so dangerous." Where's your backbone - coward? Laws will never make your street perfectly safe, let alone this world or this universe -- that IS a quest of the insane (ahhh, travel related). Travel has ALWAYS had elements of danger attached to it, so don't use it as an excuse for further invasion of privacy. Watchout... if the terrorists don't get you, maybe an iceberg will.
Please always remember and never forget, the NUMBER ONE cause that leads to death throughout the world is...
Life!
Feb 28th, 2003, 09:14 PM
#37
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Spike- You wrote it exactly correct!!
I , for one, think we are giving away way too many of our "rights as Americans".....
When will this "invasion end" and when will we have our real freedom?
If ANYONE out there thinks this will work, you are sadly mistaken...
The airlines are still not catching all the ramp pass people with false ramp passes.....
None of this is FOOL PROOF-- it is downright idiotic to be so invasive that the government needs to run a credit check on me when I fly, and have access to my bank account info...I DON'T THINK SO!!!
I have no problem with their "profiling". yet I do have a problem with my PRIVACY being invaded financially...WHO will have access?? Do you know WHO is going to see all of your assets??? And what about some idiot HACKING into the government secure ( HA!) site with all this info!!
This is a match made in heaven for a computer hacker and identity theft person to go wild!! And then what will you do????
Has no one heard that VISA,MC and AX were hacked into and that the credit card companies did NOT notify the accounts for fear of BAD Press-- they are doing a "wait and see "attitude of the account holder calling in and letting them know that there was un-warrented activity on their accounts...
Has this gotten anyone thinking yet??
There is WAY too much personal info floating around the internet in so-called secure sites.....WE do NOT need to add another....
There are OTHER ways to figure out how the bad guys are operating...All the US needs to do is HIRE the security people from El AL---THEY don't have the same problems that we have....they nip them in the bud BEFORE the planes leave the ground....and you don't see the Israeli's stating that the airline has access to their credit reports and bank accounts!!
We are losing our freedom slowly but surely.....And we need to complain to our congressmen and senators NOW about this new AIRLINE security measure being
instigated by the US GOVT under the guise of "security" for the nation takes effect!!!
I , for one, think we are giving away way too many of our "rights as Americans".....
When will this "invasion end" and when will we have our real freedom?
If ANYONE out there thinks this will work, you are sadly mistaken...
The airlines are still not catching all the ramp pass people with false ramp passes.....
None of this is FOOL PROOF-- it is downright idiotic to be so invasive that the government needs to run a credit check on me when I fly, and have access to my bank account info...I DON'T THINK SO!!!
I have no problem with their "profiling". yet I do have a problem with my PRIVACY being invaded financially...WHO will have access?? Do you know WHO is going to see all of your assets??? And what about some idiot HACKING into the government secure ( HA!) site with all this info!!
This is a match made in heaven for a computer hacker and identity theft person to go wild!! And then what will you do????
Has no one heard that VISA,MC and AX were hacked into and that the credit card companies did NOT notify the accounts for fear of BAD Press-- they are doing a "wait and see "attitude of the account holder calling in and letting them know that there was un-warrented activity on their accounts...
Has this gotten anyone thinking yet??
There is WAY too much personal info floating around the internet in so-called secure sites.....WE do NOT need to add another....
There are OTHER ways to figure out how the bad guys are operating...All the US needs to do is HIRE the security people from El AL---THEY don't have the same problems that we have....they nip them in the bud BEFORE the planes leave the ground....and you don't see the Israeli's stating that the airline has access to their credit reports and bank accounts!!
We are losing our freedom slowly but surely.....And we need to complain to our congressmen and senators NOW about this new AIRLINE security measure being
instigated by the US GOVT under the guise of "security" for the nation takes effect!!!
