jlm_mi

here_today - I liked that quote too. Who ever said anything about every minute of every day, unless that family lives in the cafe and doesn't ever leave it. Kids are kids and will behave like kids in general - that's what playgrounds, backyards, and kid-friendly family rooms are for. If you can't or won't teach your kids how to behave more appropriately in places like restaurants and libraries, then don't go there.

I do believe that even now, most parents do well by their kids and teach them how to behave, but the ones that don't ruin a good thing for everyone else.

As to aliska's story - I wonder if there's something deeper there. If the couple had triplets a year later, odds are very high that they were going through fertility treatments at the time of the lunch. Maybe it was just a really bad emotional day for the owner and/or his wife, and the couple of old ladies were used as an excuse. Bad business practice maybe, but infertility can cause emotions to overcome common sense sometimes.

mah1980

There was a preview of this story for Keith Olberman on MSNBC. Here is the address of the bakery if you'd like to send a little note of solidarity (which I did b/c I read somewhere that parental groups are organizing boycotts against him):

A Taste of Heaven
5401 N Clark St
Chicago, IL 60640

mah1980

My parents also had the patented look that meant if my sister or i continued we'd get a major spanking. i don't think kids should be in serious fear of their parents, but i think the problem these days is that parents are so scared of coming off mean or overly strict. they have not honed the dreaded "look" and the kids know the parents will not follow through with their threats.

SAB

I have thought about this for a while because I have a former close friend who I no longer see because of her refusal to discipline her son. She and her husband waited to have a child until her mid 30's, they had fertility problems, and spent a great deal of time and money conceiving "precious"--the nickname all of her former friends have for her son. She is so besotted with her own child and everything he does, that she is creating a monster. She would say the same sort of thing as those Chicago mothers. Now, she was never the most considerate person to begin with and was always self involved, one of those people who easily takes offense and has no realization (or care) of how offensive she is to others. Simply put self absorbed people with fragile egos will never see their children as a problem, unfortunately we as a society seem to be generating more such people. Of course, she attributes the loss of some of her friends to us "not liking children".

jorr

E, you have it Exactly right. I couldn't find better words to illustrate or explain the situation.

mah1980

Completely agree with SAB's assessment. Having poorly behaving children is just an extension of self-involved, inconsiderate people. The same type of person that was at the public library last week screaming on his phone for 15 minutes, while everyone was giving him dirty looks.

The problem is that these parents commit their children to lives of not not living up to their potential.

SharonG

Bravo to the bakery owner! It always amazes me to see the way children are allowed to behave in public these days. I was also brought up going to nice restaurants in NYC and totally know about "the look". Although I love children, in the words of Queen Victoria, "We do not subscribe to baby worship".

Sartoris

I wonder if any of you saw the spot about this on CNN's American Morning today. I thought the owner was such a nice guy, far more diplomatic than I would be about children acting up in my place. It's a shame he has be criticized for just putting up a a couple of VERY REASONABLE rules. I'm sending him a postcard of support today.

JJ5

Last night there was a wonderful program on our Chicago Tonight, PBS, Channel 11. This owner was joined by several others of like ilk and there was also a "devil's advocate" mother to answer some inquiries.

The owner was a peach and had not one thing against kids. He should have been a diplomat. He has NOT banned kids from the shop. Just made some rules. Somehow or other it just doesn't come across to the "me" people that they are not entitled to foist their own child-rearing belief (or non-belief) system upon everyone else, when it IS everyone else that suffers or endures the consequences. His business has gone up 76% within the last 3 months.

It was a terrific program- looks like he is making the media rounds.

And the rest of the program was the interiors of 5 different downtown skyscrapers that I hadn't seen in ages. Now I have to go to 190 South State and the also Lasalle Bank and some of the others just to gape. Why doesn't anyone ever tell anyone here to go into the Thompson Center? I always forget to myself too. You can't believe that the entire center is open and you can see into the offices all the way up- it looks so "same" from the outside. The AC/Heating man's nightmare.

So many here have excellent/true words about the eventual outcome of this kidcentric fashion, because the resulting adults only look like they are from the outside. Inside they remain juvenile and suffer all the consequences of lacking the practice on self-controls. Hard life with no serenity.

You CAN take your kids out all the time in most cities, as there are SO many that are family geared. But to theatre or movies or top restaurants, get a baby-sitter. Those places aren't meant for little babies ot toddlers. They just aren't.

mah1980

I saw the report on Keith Olberman and loved it. It's funny that these miffed parents who made such a stink are coming off as such selfish fools.

Probably not the outcome they had hoped (especially the increase in sales for the owner). Now that this stance has seemed to benefit his business, I wouldn't be surprised if many other business owners followed in his footsteps.

likestoeat

wow, what a discussion. I'm with you guys. I teach spoiled rich kids developmental gymnastics every day. here's my input:

Girls like to scream (squeak?) but they don't have to. I'm a girl and was taught not to screech. why do some parents just accept screeching as a normal girl thing?

We have a gym and a lobby. two SEPARATE areas. The lobby has old people, nursing mothers, sleeping babies in carseats, etc. The gym has two teachers and a bunch of crazy kids. Do most parents try to get their kid to behave in the lobby, no, because it is part of a kids' establishment. Craziness in the gym is pretty much ok, but in the Lobby, please, control your child. A lady burping her 2 week old baby doesn't need to get bumped into by a group of 3 year olds wrestling.

What ever happened to respecting adults? When I was growing up, grown-ups ruled. Especially teachers and parents and parents of friends and my parents' friends. These days, kids are so used to being in charge and getting their way that they actually think they will win.

My theories on why: Poor nutrition (mac and cheese anyone? how about some fries with that? chicken fingers again!) That's pretty much the standard children's menu. Where's the broccoli? Where's the grilled chicken? How about some mashed potatos? I'm not suggesting Brussels sprouts or peas! Kids can and should eat a well balanced diet (including fruits and vegetables) but I see to many of my friends kids existing on processed nastiness. I love "Cheese and Macaroni" as much as the next person, but I might seem stupid too if that's all I ate each day.

HMM, how about those Tv's and other electronic learning gadgets? What ever happened to parents reading to children and working with them on learning? What is going on with all these gadgets that will read to kids and the kid uses a special pointer to point to a frog in a book and the book says frog? Why can't the parents take the kids to the park and find a frog and say "FROG."?

I do know a few well behaved kids, out of the hundred or so at my church and the 250 or so at my work, and when I ask the parents how they have such good kids the parents say you have to teach them. Yes, you have to put down your Mai Tai and teach your child how to act in a restaurant. You have to teach your dog how to act at the park. You have to teach your child when not to scream (how about not unless you are on a rollercoaster or your life is in danger). You, the parent, have to teach your child everything or they will grow into a big boob who acts like a dumb dumb and no one wants to be around them.

My parents taught me lots about behavior, but never taught me to make friends, and I never had friends. I was a great kid, adults loved me. just had no friends, and as a military kid, it would have been helpful to be taught how to make friends. At some point in college I figured out i missed out on some education somewhere and went searching and learned and try hard to make and keep friends. Kids will eventually realize what they are lacking and blame their parents. That's never going to make for happy holidays.

In short, kids need healthy diets and less tv, and more conversation with parents. Sitting next to each other on the couch in front of the Wiggles does not count as quality time.

lynnejoel1015

DH and I just vacationed in NYC and ate at Serendipity, and there were these two girls running amuck in the way of the waiters on a very busy night, completely obnoxious, almost causing several accidents (waiters arms full of heavy trays full of hot heavy glass plates and dishes).... someone could've been seriously hurt.

I waitressed through college. Kids should wear leashes in restaurants. If parents only knew how hurt their kids could get if a tray came crashing down on them when they're running underfoot.

Borealis

I too agree with the owner of the bakery in Chicago. Good for him!!!

However, I disagree that society is too kid-centric. Actually the problem is self-centered lazy parenting.

I have raised one son and now spend oodles of time with two grandsons, so I think that I can say with some authority that parenting is hard work, takes time and a lot of thought and yes, wisdom.
Children are NOT monsters who decide that they want to be disruptive - most little ones just don't know any better. At 2 or 3 years old they are usually very eager to learn anything and everything that you can teach them. But at that age they have a short attention span, much shorter than the time that most adults would want to spend enjoying a meal. Lazy parents do not take that into account when planning restaurant excursions.

Another thing - most kids learn by watching (example). However, many parents subscribe with the "do as I say and not as I do" philosophy, and then wonder what went wrong with their children, when all they are doing is copying mom and dad.

From what I have seen, noisy bratty behaviour in children is usually the result of either complete lack of control by the parent, or mirroring the loud-mouthed obnoxious behaviour of the parent.

patg

I thought this woman summed it up well - quoted from a follow up column by the Tribune's Eric Zorn:

"Readers submitted hundreds of responses--nearly all of them supportive of McCauley's sign and my grouchy broadside:

"When you have children you lose at least some of the ability to come and go as you please," wrote Gladys C. "Your freedoms are largely in the hands of a small, unpredictable person. And because your small person is unpredictable, that means either you have control over their public behavior, or they have control over your ability to go where you wish to go."

wtm003

I have to agree with Aliska's statement "that there are people out there who just react badly to children, period." Frankly, I'm sick of seeing nasty glares from constipated looking adults when I enter a restaurant with my well-behaved children. Yeah, I agree that there are a lot of unruly children out there, but I am tired of all kids being prejudged. I have no qualms with a restaurant, bakery, etc. establishing rules of conduct. My problem is with self-absorbed adults who get bent out of shape because a child may be at the same restaurant, on the same flight or even sharing the same beach.

mah1980

wtm003:

I think that the reason that you may get some long looks when you bring in kids to a nice restaurant, etc., is that so many adults are used to only experiencing kids that are allowed to misbehave by their parents. They may just assume that you will act the same way. Right or wrong, that is the standard right now in our culture so they're just prepared for the worst.

I'm sure once they see that your kids are well behaved they have no problem with them being there.

ed

We ate in a restaurant on Fisherman's Wharf in Monterey that had a note on the menu to the effect that if your child is being unruly why don't you take him/her for a walk until things are quieter?

We will be glad to keep your dinner warm

likeswords

As a parent educator, I have found reading all these posts to be a very gratifying experience: it's so good to see that the people who express themselves here are increasingly understanding of the child's need to be a child, and the parent's obligation to be the leader and help the child learn how to deal with situations that life presents. Long-range parenting (which means looking at the goals you have for your child, rather than at the immediate way to make life easier for yourself) involves being willing to spend A LOT of extra time letting your children make mistakes, then removing them promptly from the situation (in consideration of others) and letting them try again another time (and being willing to go home early again if they still can't handle it). If you want to relax with your kids, go to a self-identified "kid friendly" place (Chuck-E-Cheese, or whatever), where it is understood that childish behavior is acceptable and welcome. But taking kids to a more formal place and either expecting them to be quiet longer than is reasonable, or failing to remove them when they find themselves unable to be respectful to others, is a serious betrayal of parental responsibility.

kswl

Interesting replies.

The proprietor's snide description of former "beauty queens and cheerleaders" sounds as though he's trying to redress some high school problems.

I find it sad that some peoples' golden childhood memories include being made to behave or be hit.

Don't forget that these children will be voting someday on your Medicare benefits.

Sartoris

I don't kow about my medicare benefits, but I bet they'll make stronger social economic and cultural contributions if they've been taught that themselves and their parents are not alone in the world, and are not even the most important people in the world. I think decorum builds character. I took the owner's "beauty queen" comment as olive branch to responsible parents. He has no beef with all parents, just those who feel most entitled to have the world accomodate their misbehaving children.
There should be places where kids been kids, but the nerve this story touched shows that there is a market for places where adults can relax and enjoy being adults without the inevitable and understandable outbursts that children bring to any environment. As a traveler, I hope to see more vacion venues tapping into this market.