mah1980

I just read an article about the bakery in Chicago. Evidently a lot of other people have read it too b/c it's the most e-mailed articles in the NYT today. (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/na...icle_popular_1)

I have to say, I completely agree with the bakery's owner and wish that more businesses would follow suit. Lately whenever my husband and I go out to dinner (at places that aren't kid places) there are unruly children everywhere with parents that are completely oblivious. I guess this isn't just happening in our area.

I wonder why this is so much more common now in American society, compared to what it was like when I was growing up in the 80's.

CAPH52

I heard this story on one of the local stations. But I was in the other room so didn't really catch the whole thing. However, if I understood it correctly, I completely agree with the bakery's stand. Why on earth shouldn't they have the right to request that their customers behave in a way that doesn't inconvenience others?

As to the reason this behavior seems to be so much more common...I think there are a lot of them. But, one very basic reason is that children are probably taken out more often and to places they didn't used to be taken. And, unfortunately, some parents don't seem to understand that, if they're going to take their children to these places, the children need to be able to behave suitably. Obviously, the problem is with the parents, whether it's discipline or judgement about proper places to take children.

mah1980

I think that the bottom line is that our culture has become too kid centric, and if you are an adult that doesn't have children you get crucified if you think other people's kids are behaving poorly.

rb_travelerxATyahoo

You get crucified if you do have kids but dare to criticize someone else's "little darlings".

mah1980

i guess that's true too, unfortunately. my mother in law is always going on about how my husband and i better not let our kids behave that way when we have children.

jlaughs

CAPH and everyone else - Couldn't agree with you more. Can't really blame kids for being kids, but parents should be able to use better judgement. One time while leaving a restaurant where we had taken our kids, we were stopped by a couple who thanked us for our children being well-behaved. Now, don't get me wrong, my children weren't (and aren't) perfect, but if they started to fuss loud enough to be distracting to others, we just took them away. We didn't expect them to act like mini-adults, but I think it's a matter of common courtesy to not "inflict" your child's behavior on others who probably don't have the same patience and/or tolerance for it because . . . well . . . because they're not your child's parent.

christy1

It's amazing that something has really changed between my parents' generation and mine (I'm 36). My parents would NEVER have taken us to a coffeehouse and expected us to sit quietly-what is kid supposed to do there??? When a group of moms took the kids somewhere, it was a park, playground or someone's home where the kids played while the moms talked. The only restaurants we went to were pizza or other explicitly kid-friendly places, and even then if we didn't behave, we were taken home immediately. They got a babysitter if they wanted some adult time.

seetheworld

I wish every parent, when leaving the hospital, were given a copy of David Elkind's book "The Hurried Child" (I love all of his works). It would be a real eye-opener as to what *we* expect from young children.

CAPH52

Sadly, I think this is one more example of the fact that, on the whole, people are getting ruder and more self-centered. It's the little things. Like when a new line is opened in the grocery store, the checker comes over and says "I can help the next person in line" and the people at the end of the line, who've just gotten there, jump in front of those who've been patiently waiting. Or those who try to push their way into an elevator or subway car without letting people out first. There are so many examples of people being totally unaware of how their behavior (or their children's) effects those around them.

It takes so little time and effort to be polite and considerate. And it makes such a difference in the quality of life.

LoveItaly

I haven't read the article and I will probably get bashed here by some for my comments but here are my thougts and comments.

From the time I was just a little girl my parents took me to "white table" restaurants in the Bay Area and SF. I was dressed up and reminded how to act. Actually I was taught how to act at the dinner table in our home. And I did. I was expected to act properly at the dinner table at home, at other houses and in restaurants. A different era I know but it is interesting to me that if children are taught how to behave they do generally. Not all of course, but most.

We took our children to the "white tablecloth" restaurants also. There was never a problem. They had been taught proper table manners at home, proper ettiquette and knew what was expected of them in a restaurant (just as I was taught and my husband was taught).

I have constantly taken my grandsons to "white tablecloth" restaurants and never once have they embarrased me or upset the restaurant employees or other customers. There are always compliments regarding them with a comment such as "please come back again"

A family of little angels. Certainly not!! Trust me on that one. But I the generations since me were taught what was expected at the table and in public including restaurants. I personally think that is part of the responsibility of parents, to teach their children good manners and decorum.

Knowing good manners from the time one is young will certainly be an asset throughout ones life and add to ones success and happiness in my opinion.

Bokhara

Loveitaly, couldn't agree more! How on earth are children expected to learn how to behave in restaurants (or anywhere else for that matter) if they're not taught properly at home? And taken to restaurants when they're small so it becomes a normal part of their lives from the start. I think lots of people sell them short. Little people have the capacity to learn a lot very quickly. And, at the same time, educate their palates. I'm not talking a 10 course degustation at Le Bernadin for their 2nd birthday party (LOL) - but what's wrong with taking them along to "normal" restaurants ?

My family aren't angels either; they certainly have their moments. They also have gone most places with their parents & family since they were tots (now 8 & 16) and are confident & competent with any cuisine & restaurant envioronment.

We started off with carriers under tables, graduated to seats hooked onto the sides and via high chairs to cushions on normal chairs. When they acted up (and they all do occasionally), they were taken outside for a while and if that didn't work, one of us simply took them to the car & waited for the others to finish the meal. Didn't happen very often as they mostly enjoyed the restaurant experience too. Europeans & Asian people seem to have a particular fondness for littlies and ours have always been welcomed. If it's a family do, they come to 5 star restaurants too. I guess the only places we don't go are "Maccas" etc. (No particular objection - just lots more interesting options)

As an employer, I have seen far too many bright young men & women mortally embarassed because they had no experience of dining in an even slightly formal environment. And some have an incredibly limited experience of, and adventure for different foods.

Maybe the sad fact is that a lot of kids are allowed to eat like savages in front of televisions because their parents can't be bothered to teach them any better and are then amazed (or oblivious)when they do it in restaurants and other people object.

BTW - I'm an Australian. Regrettably, it's a global malaise.

One of our premier restaurant owners was sued (unsuccessfully) some years ago by a couple he asked to leave when their child ran amok in the restaurant. Great publicity for the restaurant and he was roundly congratulated.

fairfax

One of the women in the article said something to the effect of wanting to be there for some peace and quiet, which is exactly what the other guests want,too. There is a starbux near where i live in Wales which has a seperate area for children and mothers. It's enough away from the other areas of the place that when a child starts acting up, it's not right next to you.

I am not a parent, but I strongly resent it when i am paying a lot of money for a meal, or have chosen a place for its quiet ambiance, and it is ruined by a screaming child at the next table.

ChristieP

Right on, Fairfax!

If a restarant doesn't have high chairs or a children's menu, it's probably not an appropriate place to take young children, or even older ones that still don't know how to behave properly.

JJ5

I watched the entire report last night with great interest. And it isn't just restaurants. You should see what people allow their children to do / act within University or public libraries- right in front of their own eyes. I've seen 6 and 7 year olds actually climbing shelving that holds VHS tapes and unwinding them as a game. But LOUD, if nothing else!

This establishment "A Taste of Heaven" seemed to me to be a very adult place and atmosphere. They will probably offend some people and lose some customers, but I doubt that it will be customers that they need or want to attract. This is just my feel from the interviews given.

They posted a very large sign with childrens' hand prints on it that said- you need to use your "inside voices" within the establishment.

It has more to do with the time element parents have with their own kids now and the ways that they keep them "busy"- than it has to do with being proactively rude on purpose. They actually are pretty oblivious to their own childrens' behavior as far as voice or movement, they space them "out". LOTS OF THE TIME. Overwork, whatever, I don't know. I think it has become kidcentric for all kinds of reasons seated in this adult generation, but that's too dense for this thread.

And they all have to be "doing" some organized or semi-structured routine every single minute. Kids have no "play in the closet time" today in many homes. Also imagination is often almost dead by constant tv, computer or game stimulation.

LoveItaly, I had the opposite at home in my youth- my parents never, ever took us to a restaurant- nor did they go often either. But we had formal meals at home, and we hosted meals often. And I can remember that we were ALWAYS served last. And if there wasn't enough for all the guests, we didn't get a chop or whatever. Today that would be considered child abuse. We developed excellent manners and consideration for others' rights and enjoyment BEFORE our own. We would be stunned if we even got the EYES. Some of you probably know what I mean.

My youngest with the mouth was the one who always said to me later. "Mom, don't give me eyes."

I really feel sorry for all these "me" kids when they grow up as they are going to be "me" people on anti-depressants and prozac and wonder why.

wyatt92

This is off on a tangent for sure but here's my experience.

I was 18 when I had my son, who is now 13. I certainly had a lot to learn but one thing I always insisted on was that he be respectful, say please and thank you and generally behave well. I'm lucky because he was always such an easy-going child but on the rare occasion where he would act up in a restaurant or other public place we would immediately leave.

It seems like parents just give into their kid's every whim and desire, and I speak from watching my son's friends and their parents. The kids know that they just have to whine or throw a tantrum and, voila, they get what they want. I don't think parents realize what a disservice they're doing to their kids. Another pet peeve is when people are having a conversation and the kids constantly interrupt. That's another thing I didn't allow with my son and to this day he is polite in saying excuse me, etc.

So speaking as a parent, don't take your kids to inappropriate places and if they do act up, take them away. Show them you mean business! OK, off my soapbox.

ncgrrl

Good for you Wyatt92.

I'm not a parent, but I don't like it when children run around loose in restaurants. It a dangerous place and the kids could get injured by running into a server with a plate full of hot food/drinks.

It's hard for me to imagine a parent would let their child run into the display case over and over and over again. Sounds like the parents need some parenting lessons too.

sfowler

How about loose on an overnight flight on a plane? When I objected to the kid from two rows ahead climbing over my feet and throwing things into my space the parents said "he's a kid" -- and then there is the fun that ensues when a kid simnply refuses to stay in their seat with the seatbelt on for take-off -- and you know how things are now.

JJ5

In the last decade '90's when I worked in the public library part-time, I had to actually pick up children bodily and remove them from equipment and all kinds of materials. In one case I can remember distinctly, Audrey-and did I hear her name over and over again, was about 5 years old and was at my eye level on metal web structures and had ruined three tapes before I got to her.

And her mother was just standing there, going- "Audrey, we don't do that here. Audrey, we don't do that here."

And that's not the worst one at all. Here at the University I've just caught 11/12 year olds playing "it" and knocking down material- in the back archives. Everyday we have things ruined and just stuck ontop of cabinets or under tables. No respect for the "other". Food/noise and now the cell phone signs get ignored too for the most part- adults with absolutely no respect for anyone else's quiet space or anything else. That's what those kids end up as.

I will bodily pick up a grandkid that gets out of his/her seat and make them leave the premises. My kids do a great parenting job 98% of the time and I try not to interfere, but anything is "too much" for me. And one little angel looks like Shirley Temple and gets away with murder- even with wait staff.

swalter518

I wholeheartedly agree with these posts and as a soon to be parent I'm taking it to heart. Last spring I was on a flight to Orlando (which I always expect lots of kids to be on) where I was seated next to a 4-5 year old and his "older" mom (of which I'll be one). This child proceeded to yell and kick me through the entire flight and the mom did nothing to stop it. (He didn't want anyone sitting next too him-too bad, full flight) My mom, who was across the aisle from me, even offered him a snack (she was loaded down with goldfish crackers for my 2 yr. old neice) in an attempt to draw attention to his behavior by his mom. Finally, I had enough of the kicking and nicely grabbed his leg and asked his mother to please stop her son from kicking me. Her response was to glare at me. Oh was I ticked...

christy1

The article is still the most emailed in the NT Times!

This is the quote that just KILLED me:

"I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?"

And I just loved this too:

Children were climbing the cafe's poles. A couple were blithely reading the newspaper while their daughter lay on the floor blocking the line for coffee. When the family whose children were running across the room to throw themselves against the display cases left after his admonishment, Mr. McCauley recalled, the restaurant erupted in applause.