The tipping double standard for Americans
Jun 7th, 2006, 06:09 PM
#181
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If a tip were simple, as a reward or as anything else, we wouldn't be having this thread.
ira
I would argue that the social Darwinists would just as easily claim that the fittest waiters will get the best tips and thus 'survive' - particularly since tips are often proportionate, not to the ability to serve a table, but to the sexual attractiveness of the server.
Tips are not subject to the laws governing pay equity - is this not a form of injustice? Whereas if the person's due wages were incorporated into the paycheque administered by the employer, they would be so subject.
In hating the practice of tipping, it is not that I begrudge someone their fair and honest wage. But speaking of fair and honest, I cannot utter the words 'discretionary' and 'wage' in one and the same sentence. It is outrageous that anything like a wage should be made optional, and then at the directive of someone who, if they're like me, knows next to zip about how to run or evaluate a restaurant and the staff therein.
ira
I would argue that the social Darwinists would just as easily claim that the fittest waiters will get the best tips and thus 'survive' - particularly since tips are often proportionate, not to the ability to serve a table, but to the sexual attractiveness of the server.
Tips are not subject to the laws governing pay equity - is this not a form of injustice? Whereas if the person's due wages were incorporated into the paycheque administered by the employer, they would be so subject.
In hating the practice of tipping, it is not that I begrudge someone their fair and honest wage. But speaking of fair and honest, I cannot utter the words 'discretionary' and 'wage' in one and the same sentence. It is outrageous that anything like a wage should be made optional, and then at the directive of someone who, if they're like me, knows next to zip about how to run or evaluate a restaurant and the staff therein.
Jun 8th, 2006, 03:30 AM
#182
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Hi sue,
I agree with you.
If a service charge were included in all prices, then a tip would be only a token of "thanks for a pleasant meal".
In the US, however, restaurant staff operate under different labor rules from everyone else and depend on their tips. They also have to share them with the kitchen help, busboys, etc.
I agree with you.
If a service charge were included in all prices, then a tip would be only a token of "thanks for a pleasant meal".
In the US, however, restaurant staff operate under different labor rules from everyone else and depend on their tips. They also have to share them with the kitchen help, busboys, etc.
Jun 8th, 2006, 03:36 AM
#183
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I'm sorry but Ira's generalization that in all restaurants tips are shared with busboys, etc., is definitely incorrect. Tip pooling and tip sharing policies vary from establishment to establishment.
And as far as wait staff operating under "different labor rules" I'm honestly baffled by that particular statement.
And as far as wait staff operating under "different labor rules" I'm honestly baffled by that particular statement.
Jun 8th, 2006, 03:59 AM
#184
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Intrepid1
It depends how one looks at the situation.
Minimum wage laws are labour laws.
In Canada a common minimum wage law applies to all occupations. Employers must pay waitstaff at least minimum wage .
In the U S - and I only learned this on this board a few years ago - it seems some occupations are exempt from the minimum wage laws. (Apparently those working in fast food restaurants are not considered waiters and thus must be paid the 'regular minimum wage.) Thus, to this extent at least, different labour laws apply to waitstaff versus other occupations.
However, in both countries employers must only pay either the minimum wage (non-waitstaff) or minimum wage (waitstaff) at minimum, it need not be the maximum. (It is called a minimum mandatory wage, not an absolute mandatory wage.) Employers could put an end to all this foolishness tomorrow, if they so chose. So to that extent, different labour 'laws' don't apply.
It depends how one looks at the situation.
Minimum wage laws are labour laws.
In Canada a common minimum wage law applies to all occupations. Employers must pay waitstaff at least minimum wage .
In the U S - and I only learned this on this board a few years ago - it seems some occupations are exempt from the minimum wage laws. (Apparently those working in fast food restaurants are not considered waiters and thus must be paid the 'regular minimum wage.) Thus, to this extent at least, different labour laws apply to waitstaff versus other occupations.
However, in both countries employers must only pay either the minimum wage (non-waitstaff) or minimum wage (waitstaff) at minimum, it need not be the maximum. (It is called a minimum mandatory wage, not an absolute mandatory wage.) Employers could put an end to all this foolishness tomorrow, if they so chose. So to that extent, different labour 'laws' don't apply.
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:05 AM
#185
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Sue, i appreciate your reply. I don;t believe the original post had anything to do with tipping someone in a fast food restaurant since you rea;lly aren't "waited on" in the traditional sense but perhaps I am incorrect.
As to Ira's not unusual generalization: I'm sure there are MANY kitchen helpers around who wish the tips the waitstaff receives WERE being shared, especially in some of the pricier restaurants in larger US cities.
As to Ira's not unusual generalization: I'm sure there are MANY kitchen helpers around who wish the tips the waitstaff receives WERE being shared, especially in some of the pricier restaurants in larger US cities.
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:09 AM
#186
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In addition, that employers in the hospitality industry aren't required or assumed to entirely handle the payroll, such that tips are not just a nominal part of the transaction, is outrageous.
In the retail clothing industry, for example, buyer buys a varying amount of goods depending on buyer's preference, but final price can otherwise be predicted in advance depending solely on the buyer's selection. This, notwithstanding the level of 'waiting on' that the buyer received from seller whilst making said selection.
Retail clothing clerks are often 'waiters', too, yet different rules - formal and informal - apply. Nuts, nuts, nuts, nuts, nuts......
In the retail clothing industry, for example, buyer buys a varying amount of goods depending on buyer's preference, but final price can otherwise be predicted in advance depending solely on the buyer's selection. This, notwithstanding the level of 'waiting on' that the buyer received from seller whilst making said selection.
Retail clothing clerks are often 'waiters', too, yet different rules - formal and informal - apply. Nuts, nuts, nuts, nuts, nuts......
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:12 AM
#187
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Intrepid said "I'm sorry but Ira's generalization that in all restaurants tips are shared with busboys, etc., is definitely incorrect. Tip pooling and tip sharing policies vary from establishment to establishment."
FYI: Ira is totally correct and this is not a generalization. In the United States, if you are a waiter working in a restaurant with table service, you are putting a percentage of your tips aside for the bus staff. Period. Employers have been known to fire waiters for stiffing the bussers.
However, some more casual restaurants do have tip pooling for all waiters, and some don't. Pooling is used generally in coffee shops, or ice cream parlors, and the like.
And the post above is correct: fast food workers do get paid minimum wage (around $6 per hour), don't get any tips, and are not required to tip any other workers.
FYI: Ira is totally correct and this is not a generalization. In the United States, if you are a waiter working in a restaurant with table service, you are putting a percentage of your tips aside for the bus staff. Period. Employers have been known to fire waiters for stiffing the bussers.
However, some more casual restaurants do have tip pooling for all waiters, and some don't. Pooling is used generally in coffee shops, or ice cream parlors, and the like.
And the post above is correct: fast food workers do get paid minimum wage (around $6 per hour), don't get any tips, and are not required to tip any other workers.
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:21 AM
#190
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My dear intrepid,
It is quite possible that I misspoke. Perhaps it would have been better to have written, "They also, ****in some establishments, might**** have to share them with the kitchen help, busboys, etc. ***However, the number of establishments, their types and geographic distribution, has not, at this time, been established with sufficient degree of accuracy or precision".
It is quite possible that I misspoke. Perhaps it would have been better to have written, "They also, ****in some establishments, might**** have to share them with the kitchen help, busboys, etc. ***However, the number of establishments, their types and geographic distribution, has not, at this time, been established with sufficient degree of accuracy or precision".
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:25 AM
#193
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I don't believe it is a law. Did someone say that? It is restaurant policy. If stiffed, bussers won't take care of that waiters' tables properly. Or management reprimands, or fires, the waiter.
Why are you arguing? Nobody said it was the right way to operate a business, just a fact that it's the case. Have you ever worked in an American restaurant?
And yes, bussers share in the pool when tips are collected this way.
Why are you arguing? Nobody said it was the right way to operate a business, just a fact that it's the case. Have you ever worked in an American restaurant?
And yes, bussers share in the pool when tips are collected this way.
Jun 14th, 2006, 07:26 AM
#194
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I have a bit of a phobia around tipping. restaurants don't bother me because I'm okay if I end up tipping too much.
But what about other services?
I felt lost in NY when there were 3 different people touching my bags between the lobby and the cab. It just felt wrong to tip the last guy who just hailed the cab.
On one local US trip, I was on crutches and the airline provided a wheelchair and guy to push me (though my boyfriend was perfectly capable of doing so) - it didn't occur to me to tip him until he glared at me after he dropped me off and I just thanked him.
So what about the following situations (looking for Italian customs)?
taxi
hotel staff - (ie: do you tip a consierge? and if so, when?), cleaning staff, bell hops...
tour guides, balloon operators, and so forth.
I can't find much more than restaurants & taxis in my tour books.
But what about other services?
I felt lost in NY when there were 3 different people touching my bags between the lobby and the cab. It just felt wrong to tip the last guy who just hailed the cab.
On one local US trip, I was on crutches and the airline provided a wheelchair and guy to push me (though my boyfriend was perfectly capable of doing so) - it didn't occur to me to tip him until he glared at me after he dropped me off and I just thanked him.
So what about the following situations (looking for Italian customs)?
taxi
hotel staff - (ie: do you tip a consierge? and if so, when?), cleaning staff, bell hops...
tour guides, balloon operators, and so forth.
I can't find much more than restaurants & taxis in my tour books.
Jun 14th, 2006, 11:21 AM
#197
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"But overall all Americans sound the same"
Sorry, but I have friends from different countries and they do have the stereotype of American as sounding like more of a Texas dialect.
Americans vary widely in our accents...northern cali differs from southern cali, cali differs from NYC, NYC differs from Boston, Boston differs from Georgia, etc.
Sorry, but I have friends from different countries and they do have the stereotype of American as sounding like more of a Texas dialect.
Americans vary widely in our accents...northern cali differs from southern cali, cali differs from NYC, NYC differs from Boston, Boston differs from Georgia, etc.
Jul 31st, 2006, 12:02 PM
#198
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I got back fairly recently from my third trip to Prague, so thought I'd post my experience on that trip in reference to the OP and some other folks comments on Prague restaurant practices. I was there 4-5 days and ate in a variety of restaurants and cafes, all fairly modest in price. None were really that far out, all being in Prague 1, but some had few tourists in them as I did go to a couple neighborhood places where there were more locals than tourists.
A 15-19 pct service charge is NOT automatically added to restaurant bills in Prague. There is none automatically added, from what I saw. I only ate in 1-2 places my entire stay where a service charge was added to the bill and those were cafes right on Old Town square. They added a 15 pct service charge and the bill clearly labelled it as such.
The original poster commented that she didn't want to tip because she had already paid a bill that included 19 pct for service and tax. Prague has a 19 pct VAT tax on restaurant bills, and that is notated on the bill. I think that is a law, it tells you how much of the price was VAT, but it is included in the price you see on the menu (or should be). So, the OP hadn't paid any service charge, just VAT.
Most bills didn't say anything, but I did see one at the Obecni Dum (Municipal House) cafe (which is definitely full of tourists, but I like it because they have good service and good food, even if a little pricey, and it was right near my hotel). That bill did say at the bottom "service charge not included." That was all. It didn't use the word tips.
I asked in another couple places at the beginning of my stay when the bill didn't say anything, and they just quietly said, no, no service charge is included.
Not a single server or waiter made any special point to me about this or made any comment, and I never had a bill that said "tips" aren't included. They responded very quietly and quickly, but simply, when I asked the few times whether service was included. No one tried to coerce me into tipping anything.
I did tip about ten percent, except in the places where service was included, because I always had good service, and I can afford it, and I generally find the people in Prague nice and friendly, and know the avg. income is much lower there than in some other countries.
A 15-19 pct service charge is NOT automatically added to restaurant bills in Prague. There is none automatically added, from what I saw. I only ate in 1-2 places my entire stay where a service charge was added to the bill and those were cafes right on Old Town square. They added a 15 pct service charge and the bill clearly labelled it as such.
The original poster commented that she didn't want to tip because she had already paid a bill that included 19 pct for service and tax. Prague has a 19 pct VAT tax on restaurant bills, and that is notated on the bill. I think that is a law, it tells you how much of the price was VAT, but it is included in the price you see on the menu (or should be). So, the OP hadn't paid any service charge, just VAT.
Most bills didn't say anything, but I did see one at the Obecni Dum (Municipal House) cafe (which is definitely full of tourists, but I like it because they have good service and good food, even if a little pricey, and it was right near my hotel). That bill did say at the bottom "service charge not included." That was all. It didn't use the word tips.
I asked in another couple places at the beginning of my stay when the bill didn't say anything, and they just quietly said, no, no service charge is included.
Not a single server or waiter made any special point to me about this or made any comment, and I never had a bill that said "tips" aren't included. They responded very quietly and quickly, but simply, when I asked the few times whether service was included. No one tried to coerce me into tipping anything.
I did tip about ten percent, except in the places where service was included, because I always had good service, and I can afford it, and I generally find the people in Prague nice and friendly, and know the avg. income is much lower there than in some other countries.
Aug 1st, 2006, 12:52 AM
#199
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I waited tables for 8 years while putting myself through college (Chicago suburbs).
The last time I waited tables was back in '96. My wage was $2.35/hr, well below the minimum wage. I was taxed on 8% of my total sales; i.e If I sold $1000 worth of food/drink, $80 was reported to the IRS. I had to share 10% of my tips to the bus boy, and 10% to the bartender.
Anyone who tips less than 15% (in the US) for good/decent service is cheaper than a polyestor suit.
Anyone who says "get a better job", well what do you expect a college student to do while earning a degree to get a better job? Some people, like myself, actually have to pay their own way through college with NO help from mommy and daddy.
Thankfully, I'll never have to wait tables again. I think I'd rather clean toilets.
The last time I waited tables was back in '96. My wage was $2.35/hr, well below the minimum wage. I was taxed on 8% of my total sales; i.e If I sold $1000 worth of food/drink, $80 was reported to the IRS. I had to share 10% of my tips to the bus boy, and 10% to the bartender.
Anyone who tips less than 15% (in the US) for good/decent service is cheaper than a polyestor suit.
Anyone who says "get a better job", well what do you expect a college student to do while earning a degree to get a better job? Some people, like myself, actually have to pay their own way through college with NO help from mommy and daddy.
Thankfully, I'll never have to wait tables again. I think I'd rather clean toilets.
