No Starbucks in Italy?
Nov 28th, 2014, 12:18 AM
#41
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good catch, Doctor!
I don't believe the 600 shots per capita per annum, either. It would surely include only espresso consumed at the bars and restaurants, because it's not considered espresso if you make on your stovetop with the moka. Since a fair number of people don't drink coffee at all, and another fair number don't go to the bar for their coffee, I would have trouble believing more than about 100 cups of espresso per capita per annum.
According to this article, 3.4 billion cups of espresso are consumed annually in bars and restaurants in Italy.
http://espresso.repubblica.it/food/d...lacqua/2183995
That comes out to 106 cups per capita, and I swear I came up with the 100 figure before reading the article.
Also according to that article, Italy is only in 7th place world-wide for coffee consumption. The real champions are in Scandanavia and Holland. Having lived in Holland, I can believe that. People there tend to drink coffee all day long, while in Italy, it's usually just one cup at breakfast and one after lunch.
I don't believe the 600 shots per capita per annum, either. It would surely include only espresso consumed at the bars and restaurants, because it's not considered espresso if you make on your stovetop with the moka. Since a fair number of people don't drink coffee at all, and another fair number don't go to the bar for their coffee, I would have trouble believing more than about 100 cups of espresso per capita per annum.
According to this article, 3.4 billion cups of espresso are consumed annually in bars and restaurants in Italy.
http://espresso.repubblica.it/food/d...lacqua/2183995
That comes out to 106 cups per capita, and I swear I came up with the 100 figure before reading the article.
Also according to that article, Italy is only in 7th place world-wide for coffee consumption. The real champions are in Scandanavia and Holland. Having lived in Holland, I can believe that. People there tend to drink coffee all day long, while in Italy, it's usually just one cup at breakfast and one after lunch.
Nov 28th, 2014, 02:59 AM
#42
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just noticed this statement, with which I really don't agree:
"A lot of young Italians love all things American and feel left out by the absence of Starbucks in Italy. They eat terrible hamburgers and drink terrible beer thinking it is cool to imitate American lifestyles, "
The young Italians I know like certain American things, especially things like hip-hop music and video games. They don't like them because they're American, but because they appeal to them aesthetically. They also like Japanese animation and Icelandic music. I don't know a single young Italian who could be said to think it cool to imitate American lifestyles. I do know a middle-aged Italian or two who might fall into this category.
McDonalds is quite popular with some Italian kids, but not with all of them, and maybe not even with the majority. They like other things that are salty and fatty, and tend to eschew vegetables, so I think it's genuinely a taste preference. Many parents wouldn't darken the door of McDonalds, considering the food served there to be practically poison; however they cheerfully serve other things to their kids that may be even less salutary, such as Mulino Bianco breakfast bars.
"A lot of young Italians love all things American and feel left out by the absence of Starbucks in Italy. They eat terrible hamburgers and drink terrible beer thinking it is cool to imitate American lifestyles, "
The young Italians I know like certain American things, especially things like hip-hop music and video games. They don't like them because they're American, but because they appeal to them aesthetically. They also like Japanese animation and Icelandic music. I don't know a single young Italian who could be said to think it cool to imitate American lifestyles. I do know a middle-aged Italian or two who might fall into this category.
McDonalds is quite popular with some Italian kids, but not with all of them, and maybe not even with the majority. They like other things that are salty and fatty, and tend to eschew vegetables, so I think it's genuinely a taste preference. Many parents wouldn't darken the door of McDonalds, considering the food served there to be practically poison; however they cheerfully serve other things to their kids that may be even less salutary, such as Mulino Bianco breakfast bars.
Nov 28th, 2014, 05:32 AM
#43
The Starbucks Globalisation , in Europe at any rate, of probably the worst coffee around:
Austria
Bulgaria
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
Spain
Switzerland)
Turkey
United Kingdom
Austria
Bulgaria
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Russia
Spain
Switzerland)
Turkey
United Kingdom
Nov 28th, 2014, 06:48 AM
#46
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There used to be only one Starbucks in the Netherlands - at their own HQ. Then they opened in Schiphol, and are now in a few more places, but they aren't in most towns and cities, let alone on every street corner. When they opened in stations like Amsterdam CS and Utrecht they were popular to begin with - people wanting to try the fabled Starbucks I guess. But now they are less popular - there is better coffee cheaper at other outlets.
Starbucks has a very complicated tax avoidance business set up for Europe, (including the Netherlands, where the coffee is roasted and Switzerland which then buys the coffee from the Netherlands) which people are now aware of, and not happy about.
Starbucks has a very complicated tax avoidance business set up for Europe, (including the Netherlands, where the coffee is roasted and Switzerland which then buys the coffee from the Netherlands) which people are now aware of, and not happy about.
Nov 28th, 2014, 09:00 AM
#48
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 78,320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
People Stateside don't go to Starbucks for coffee necessarily but a place to sit as long as you like and get free WI-FI or a nice place to study or read, etc. Kind of cool I think and Italy seems to lack these type of places where the coffee is not the attraction but the leisurely atmosphere and yes feee WI-FI.
Nov 28th, 2014, 09:08 AM
#49
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rubicund
We were in Stockholm and the archipeligo this summer.
They like strong coffee not lattes or cappuccino just straight strong.
They would laugh their pants off at Starbucks dish water.
The best coffee in the world is in Stockholm simply be because they serve them in tall, jar type mugs with no handles like you get from Ikea. The thick rims just seem to make the coffee taste better.
We were in Stockholm and the archipeligo this summer.
They like strong coffee not lattes or cappuccino just straight strong.
They would laugh their pants off at Starbucks dish water.
The best coffee in the world is in Stockholm simply be because they serve them in tall, jar type mugs with no handles like you get from Ikea. The thick rims just seem to make the coffee taste better.
Nov 28th, 2014, 10:52 AM
#51
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An urban myth Pal.
Some things were bonkers.
Eating out, wine, beer silly.
Everything else pretty reasonable. Fresh food cheaper than Britain, coffee about the same.
Norway is a different story. Apply for a remortgage prior to a visit.
Some things were bonkers.
Eating out, wine, beer silly.
Everything else pretty reasonable. Fresh food cheaper than Britain, coffee about the same.
Norway is a different story. Apply for a remortgage prior to a visit.
Nov 28th, 2014, 11:03 AM
#52
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MacD coffee would be expensive too, if the local coffee is.
When we tour the US we sometimes despair of getting a good espresso. Starbucks at least turns out a reasonable one, with a good crema. It's usually nearly cold, but it tastes OK and is an espresso. Many places say yes we have espresso - and serve us a smallish (but too big for espresso) cup of bitter brown liquid, and have the nerve to charge us more for it.
The best espresso we had during our last trip was on our final morning, at the café next to our hotel in San Francisco where we had breakfast before heading for the airport. It was so good we each had three cups of it.
I had an espresso at Schiphol Starbucks once, because they were positioned by the door my son was to exit through. I got it for free because they took too long over it. It was OK though.
I wouldn't seek out a Starbucks normally in Europe.
When we tour the US we sometimes despair of getting a good espresso. Starbucks at least turns out a reasonable one, with a good crema. It's usually nearly cold, but it tastes OK and is an espresso. Many places say yes we have espresso - and serve us a smallish (but too big for espresso) cup of bitter brown liquid, and have the nerve to charge us more for it.
The best espresso we had during our last trip was on our final morning, at the café next to our hotel in San Francisco where we had breakfast before heading for the airport. It was so good we each had three cups of it.
I had an espresso at Schiphol Starbucks once, because they were positioned by the door my son was to exit through. I got it for free because they took too long over it. It was OK though.
I wouldn't seek out a Starbucks normally in Europe.
Nov 28th, 2014, 11:29 AM
#53
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While Sweden may have had its traditions and appreciation for good coffee even before there was the first Starbucks outlet in the US, one should also not forget that it is a small market.
From a corporate perspective, both factors may lead to the assessment that it is not worth the effort to invest in a nationwide roll-out - aside from the 3 or 4 Starbucks outlets that do exist in Sweden.
In Switzerland, I do go to Starbucks regularly - one of the cheapo places to have a coffee and something filling like a banana bread. And, in Geneva, it was also a Starbucks where the staff at the counter did not not even blink when I paid for my CHF 10 or 15 order with a 200 CHF bill...
From a corporate perspective, both factors may lead to the assessment that it is not worth the effort to invest in a nationwide roll-out - aside from the 3 or 4 Starbucks outlets that do exist in Sweden.
In Switzerland, I do go to Starbucks regularly - one of the cheapo places to have a coffee and something filling like a banana bread. And, in Geneva, it was also a Starbucks where the staff at the counter did not not even blink when I paid for my CHF 10 or 15 order with a 200 CHF bill...
Nov 28th, 2014, 12:24 PM
#54
"Starbucks has a very complicated tax avoidance business set up for Europe, (including the Netherlands, where the coffee is roasted and Switzerland which then buys the coffee from the Netherlands) which people are now aware of," Double-dutch and an Irish I think.
The list of tax avoiders is getting longer, and includes Ikea, Costa Nero etc. Don't get me started on Luxembourg
The list of tax avoiders is getting longer, and includes Ikea, Costa Nero etc. Don't get me started on Luxembourg
Nov 29th, 2014, 05:40 AM
#58
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 708
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, the Neapolitan writer De Crescenzo has written some things about the coffee culture in Italy, and the kernel of it is that espresso is an easy and inexpensive drink that makes you socialize. When you pay a coffee to your colleagues, it is a way to tell them you like them. In Neaples they have also the "suspended coffee": you drink a coffee but you pay two, the next customer - you do not even know him/her, or maybe some poor people - will get one free. It is a small way to tell you like the whole world. I think Starbucks is way behind the local Italian bar in this respect, no matter the quality of the drinks.
Dec 1st, 2014, 07:44 AM
#59
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 78,320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess MacDonalds will serve as the place for folks to go and read, study, get free WI-FI - too bad Starbucks can get a foothold because like the Golden Arches I think it would be popular for what it is - not for its coffee.
Dec 1st, 2014, 03:31 PM
#60
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>>>> In Neaples they have also the "suspended coffee": you drink a coffee but you pay two, the next customer
Starbucks has been encouraging the same thing in the States, called "pay forward." You get your espresso macchiato (in Italy its one Euro, maybe 1.10), and at Starbucks instead of paying $2.16 for your little swill, you instead pay for the order of the NEXT person, which is one venti caramel frappucreamy, a grande mocha creamaholic, and a doppio-molto-vente-sugar-frappe-piss-o-chino, grand total thirty-seven dollars.
Starbucks has been encouraging the same thing in the States, called "pay forward." You get your espresso macchiato (in Italy its one Euro, maybe 1.10), and at Starbucks instead of paying $2.16 for your little swill, you instead pay for the order of the NEXT person, which is one venti caramel frappucreamy, a grande mocha creamaholic, and a doppio-molto-vente-sugar-frappe-piss-o-chino, grand total thirty-seven dollars.
