No Starbucks in Italy?

Old Nov 26th, 2014, 12:49 PM
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No Starbucks in Italy?

I believe there are no Sgtarbucks coffee shops in Italy and got these reasons why:

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...9153437AA4oey1

and from ABC News 2011 posting:
Italians Protect Coffee Culture

In Italy — where one city has already formed an association to protect historic cafés — a battle lies ahead.

For Italians, drinking their coffee is as routine as breathing — a recent survey found that 70 million cups of espresso are drunk in Italy each year. That's 600 shots per person, consumed in any of Italy's 110,000 coffee bars. Milan, nexus of the fashion world, has some 600 cafés alone.

And Italians' cafés are a source of pride and joy. In this country where sidewalk cafés are firmly entrenched in the national psyche, Starbucks' announcement has caused an uproar.

"The Italian café is a culture that the Americans have repackaged," said a spokesman for one of Starbucks' European competitors. "They concentrate more on their image than the coffee."

Italy's La Stampa newspaper chided: "We thought we had everything in Italy, but it turns out we lacked one thing: American coffee,"

QUESTION - WHEN WILL ITALY GET CIVILIZED AND HAVE STARBUCKS COFFEE TO SIP?

And never say never!
PalenQ is offline  
Old Nov 26th, 2014, 01:44 PM
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The absence of Starbucks in Italy is a decision made by Starbucks, not Italy. Starbucks has feared opening outlets in Italy because if Italians reject Starbucks and the stores fail, it will pop a bubble for the "brand." A lot of non-Italians go to Starbucks believing they are getting an Italian-styled product and -- even more importantly -- an experience of Italian cafe life as well.

The reality is that Italians drink teeny cups of coffee standing up a e bar, in a rush, on the go -- they don't park themselves with electronic devices for hours at on end in a cafe nursing huge tubs of milk and sugar flavored stuff for hours on end. That is actually more typical of Vienna (but Teutonic sounding things don't sell as well in America as Italian sounding things do, even though Italy was on the wrong side of WW2).

A lot of young Italians love all things American and feel left out by the absence of Starbucks in Italy. They eat terrible hamburgers and drink terrible beer thinking it is cool to imitate American lifestyles, and they would probably patronize Starbucks. There have been persistent rumors in the past months that Starbucks was finally going to open an outlet in 2014 in Milan -- where it would make sense, since American hamburgers, fried chicken and bakeries selling cookies and bagels have been successful in proudly-global Milan -- followed by opening one in Rome. However, as of today, I don't think it has happened (maybe I missed a news story) and we are fast running out of 2014 days. Maybe 2015.
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Old Nov 26th, 2014, 04:05 PM
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I am happy there are no Starbucks in Italy and hope there never will be. When in Rome...... (Eustachio and others). It was disconcerting to find a Dunkin' Donuts (my favorite brand) across the street from the Prado in Madrid.
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Old Nov 26th, 2014, 04:32 PM
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I hope never. Why would you want yucky Starbucks in a country with delicious coffee?

Starbucks was a miserable failure in Australia which has a very strong Italian style coffee culture.
The only people I ever knew who went in one in Sydney were teens (for similar reasons as sandra pointed out), no Australian adult that we knew would have been caught dead in one.
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Old Nov 26th, 2014, 04:37 PM
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Thank goodness no STARBUCKS. . Love my Coffee and have just been to Milan . Please no STARBUCKS in Italy .
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Old Nov 26th, 2014, 04:50 PM
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too true citygirl-it has failed here . We couldn't believe when Starbucks opened in Lygon Street -(an Italian area with great coffee). any way the STARBUCKS is no longer there. Most Aussies drink coffee the Italian way.
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Old Nov 26th, 2014, 05:40 PM
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Northie- a Starbucks in Lygon Street?? Wow, Starbucks didn't do their research very well now did they? lol.
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Old Nov 26th, 2014, 06:23 PM
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My opinion on why there is no Starbucks in Italy is why would anyone buy weak, expensive coffee when there is an alternative. So what if Starbucks has a presence in Italy. Just because it's there doesn't mean anyone has to frequent it.

I like Starbucks Verona coffee but I would only make it at home when I control how much coffee goes into the pot.

Why do so many people go to Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts? I can't see the reason for it.
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Old Nov 26th, 2014, 08:18 PM
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On a scale of 1 to 10, for me, Starbucks espresso is a 3.5 when it is good, and a 1.5 when you get a bad pull. They use a bean that lacks complexity, and they roast it heavily, hence the moniker "charbucks." It did improve starting about three years ago, when the chain realized that quality had really tumbled, and their baristas had such varying skills that they closed every Starbucks in the U.S. for a day and retrained everybody. Now, it is often decent espresso - - more than can be said for a lot of places serving espresso in the U.S. (particularly at airports) where you get an evil, bitter vetch (that most people drown in milk and sugar anyways). Even some boutique specialty coffee shops serve even, bitter vetch in the states, though many make superb espresso - - better than the average place in Italy, because they use better beans (sourced from individual farmers or producers, all high-altitude Arabica). If Starbucks does open in Italy, it will be for kids going for the frappy or ice-creamy things with loads of whipped cream on them and drizzled caramel, not for the espresso.

I have had really bad espresso in Italy, only once that I can distinctly remember. It was at a bar a block from Firenze S.M.N. station. Otherwise, wherever locals go regularly, the standard has to be high, or else they would go somewhere else.
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Old Nov 26th, 2014, 08:43 PM
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"...they don't park themselves with electronic devices for hours at on end in a cafe nursing huge tubs of milk and sugar flavored stuff for hours on end. That is actually more typical of Vienna..."

Close, but mostly at Viennese Starbucks. Though the cafe culture here seems to be slowly drifting toward electronic device pacification (for hours on end), the only huge tubs of beverage to be found are at Starbucks. A melange at a Viennese cafe is around 6 oz.; at Starbucks it comes in three sizes (!), the smallest being close to "huge tub" size.
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Old Nov 26th, 2014, 10:10 PM
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In all fairness, one should not forget that using the coffee house as your 2nd living room and workspace has a long-standing tradition in Vienna. Journalists, writers, even lawyers were famous to have "their" coffee houses where they would do business, and even get their mail delivered.
So the new generation of urbanites that install themselves for hours at the Vienna Starbucks outlets is actually more the real thing than the tourist popping in for just a Melange.

Also in Germany, local chains similar to Starbucks had started even before Starbucks set foot here. Nowadays, I could not even say how many chains there are as there are so many - plus individual, owner-operated coffee shops, plus Italian-style coffee bars where you can get your Illy or Lavazza espressi on the go.
In fact, one could say that the "invasion" of Starbucks has actually blazed the trail for any type of coffee shop - which had formerly been a declining or stagnant business that few younger people would care about.

Dunkin' Donuts has become an ubiquitious staple in Berlin over the last decade, but when they only recently opened their first outlet in Munich, people were lining up around the block.

I find it sometimes amusing that it seems to be much more the valued visitor from America from overseas than the locals who seems to have a problem with finding "their" chains over here.
It may come as a surprise but "we Europeans" actually LIKE that stuff.
While I happily admit that DD's coffee is hardly more than a basic brew, I must admit that I am (unfortunately) crazy about their frosted donuts.
Why you consider your home-grown chains as that inferior is a mystery to me, though.
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Old Nov 27th, 2014, 12:15 AM
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I think the reason Starbucks is not yet present in Italy is two fold - quality and pricing.

I will not go into the question of quality but I just don't think Starbucks would cut it in Italy.

Pricing is very important. The cost of an espresso is generally about Euro 1 in the north of Italy (few break this pricepoint) but can be lower in the south.

Starbucks business model cannot compete with this.
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Old Nov 27th, 2014, 12:18 AM
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What is Starbucks?

I get an idea of what Dunkin Donuts is, basically fat and sugar for people who cannot spell.
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Old Nov 27th, 2014, 12:25 AM
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That does not explain, though, why Starbucks is present in Spain with many locations. Where the price, quality of a solo are same as for an espresso in Italy.
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Old Nov 27th, 2014, 02:29 AM
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I was a bit (but not totally, since money and marketing are, well, MONEY and marketing) surprised to see at least two Starbucks outlets in Vienna earlier this week. And there were people IN them and I somehow doubt those people were all from the United States.

Anyone remember when "Mr. Coffee Snob from Seattle" Starbucks owner was dishing the Dunkin' Donuts and McDonalds coffee offerings as "that swill?" I guess at lot depends on taste and since I am one of those "star<B>burnt</B>" thinkers I never go in them or buy coffee from them.

In the Vienna cafe places we went past I mainly saw people outside actually taking to one another and smoking although I suppose some were on their phones or laptops or tablets.

I noticed at the Park Hyatt hotel the desk clerks are all using laptops rather than PCs.
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Old Nov 27th, 2014, 03:00 AM
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I wasn't criticizing Vienna, or a caffe culture, and am quite aware of its history. It is typical of American culture to supersize just about everything. I was just pointing out that the upholstered interiors of Starbucks more resemble cafes in Vienna than what you typically see in Italy, plus the array of complicated coffee concoctions, or pastries and small sandwiches -- which exist in Italian cafes, but are not particularly interesting except a few select cities of northern Italy. Starbucks was marketed to Americans as having its roots in Italy, but I think that is a bit of corporate fluff. Even Paris has more of a tradition of hanging out in the cafe as your 2nd living room than Italy does. Italians have the piazza as their 2d living room, and generally prefer being outdoors. It is northern European cities that provided the model for Starbucks, not southern ones (although Italy and Greece does deserve some credit, I guess, for inspiring the "frappaccino.")

It is interesting to note that the "new" cafes of Vienna are making a big deal of having imported Italian-espresso making machines, or having Italian baristas. It is a very distinct style of producing a cup of coffee, as distinctive as Turkish coffee, and Starbucks just doesn't produce the same thing, and neither do most Viennese cafes even if you ask for the alleged equivalents of an espresso.

Although there is no coordinated conspiracy against Starbucks in Italy, it is true that Italy has not been an easy place for international corporate entry. You rarely see international brands of any sort in Italy, except at airports, although that is slowly changing in the cities. But Spain has always been more open to corporate entry and traditionally is just about everything an advocate of globalization could hope for.

I think if you can make Starbucks fashionable enough in Italy you can get people to pay the higher price, as a status"cool" thing, but in addition to the obstacles to acceptance nochblad cited, it is also the case that Italians do not consider a cafe a place to load up on sugar -- which is really how Starbucks is making its money (which is why they charge so much for a single shot of espresso and not much for huge frappaccino). Italians more typically eat gelato if they want sugar, and their concern about getting fat makes them tend to avoid the extra calories in the kinds of sugary drinks that Starbucks sells. If you eat a gelato in the evening (or for breakfast, as do the Sicilians), that fills you up as a meal.
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Old Nov 27th, 2014, 03:17 AM
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In 18th century England, the coffee shop was often a literary salon. There were even exclusive clubs based in coffee shops, and I think that may have been the origin of British club culture.

It's also true that in Italy, especially in rural areas, the bar (our equivalent of the coffee shop) is a 2nd living room, although not a literary salon. You see lots of men of pensioner age spending half the day in the bar, playing cards, watching sports matches, gossipping, and even napping. I sometimes wonder if their wives have thrown them out so they can watch "Beautiful" (a soap opera, I believe imported from the USA) instead of the football match.

There are also groups of women who meet at the bar after mass and hang around (although not as long) to gossip and discuss what they're going to prepare for lunch. There's a group of women (mostly widows) in our town who go to mass every morning and meet later at a bar, where they mostly discuss their horoscopes. A melange of the Christian and the pagan.
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Old Nov 27th, 2014, 03:22 AM
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Although I don't care for Starbucks at all, I don't see why they should be kept out of Italy. As Cowboy says, it seems to be foreign tourists that are shocked at the idea. Italy isn't a museum display under glass that has to be frozen in time to satisfy the daydreams of tourists.

The pastries at Starbucks are even worse than the coffee, and that's saying a lot. The things that are supposedly baked, like muffins and scones, taste like they've been cooked by steam. They're also overly sweet and pasty, and stick to the roof of your mouth.
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Old Nov 27th, 2014, 03:26 AM
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Here are some pictures of Starbucks upholstery and interiors

http://www.carnegiefabrics.com/Carne...90862c4889.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/21/329...087c4b36e3.jpg

http://1410cahnrs.archive.cahnrs.wsu...-sb-int-02.jpg


and here are pictures of Cafe Sperl, Cafe Landtmann and Cafe Hawelka in Vienna

https://chrisnsue.files.wordpress.co...fe-sperl-7.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ud-7MKING7...+Landtmann.jpg

http://www.martinezfinecoffees.com/m...lka_inside.jpg

and the typical Starbucks order of coffee and pastry

http://prideinphotos.files.wordpress...bucks-post.jpg

and typical order of coffee and pastry in Vienna

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/med...fe-central.jpg

Finally, here's a typical cafe scene in Italy for coffee and pastry (totally different)

http://lh5.ggpht.com/-CltHHsVbjE8/Ur...-57-37-174.jpg
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Old Nov 27th, 2014, 03:31 AM
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"The pastries at Starbucks are even worse than the coffee, and that's saying a lot."


The pastries at Starbucks are also worse than the pastries in Italian cafes, and that's rather an amazing feat too.
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