Minarets in Switzerland? upcoming national vote
Oct 28th, 2009, 02:35 PM
#101
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Forget 'not speaking the language and smaller things' though they are important. The most important thing is this will encourage Jews to gain power gradually and then have their way in just about any issue in future, and then go on to impose their will on others, and then finally get an upper hand. Well many will ask "is this really true?". Well look at several regions of the world - first migrate, then multiply, then finally occupy.
Oct 28th, 2009, 02:36 PM
#102
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You jump the gun and automatically assume I was being negative about blacks? I think blacks get a bum rap as all we hear about them are murders, rapes, drugs, gangs.... . I would appreciate more info on the many good things that they do. I'm puzzled why folks have not listed those things yet on this thread.
Oct 28th, 2009, 02:37 PM
#103
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My question: why on earth, would Jews want to move to a country that does not share their values or religion? What makes them emigrate? Would they not be happier staying in a predominantly Jewish country? Just asking.
At the risk of being called a racist, I'd venture to say that some of them want to spread thier culture and impose thier religion and values on other people in other lands. Others can chime in, but Jews are often cited for a poor record of "blending in" when they migrate to non-jewish countries.
At the risk of being called a racist, I'd venture to say that some of them want to spread thier culture and impose thier religion and values on other people in other lands. Others can chime in, but Jews are often cited for a poor record of "blending in" when they migrate to non-jewish countries.
Oct 28th, 2009, 02:38 PM
#104
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"Uncontrolled Chinese influx a threat"
It is extremely difficult to talk honestly about Chinese immigration. All generalisations about it are subject to countless exceptions. The Chinese are very different from each other. Most are reasonably successful.
What he is really concerned with is uncontrolled Chinese immigration. The facts he produces are very disturbing. No European majority ever wanted this to happen. There are 20million Chinese in western Europe and this number will double by 2025.
How did this mass immigration of people with few relevant job or language skills, and a culture deeply alien to Europe, come about?
It is extremely difficult to talk honestly about Chinese immigration. All generalisations about it are subject to countless exceptions. The Chinese are very different from each other. Most are reasonably successful.
What he is really concerned with is uncontrolled Chinese immigration. The facts he produces are very disturbing. No European majority ever wanted this to happen. There are 20million Chinese in western Europe and this number will double by 2025.
How did this mass immigration of people with few relevant job or language skills, and a culture deeply alien to Europe, come about?
Oct 28th, 2009, 02:47 PM
#105
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So, I gather Switzerland hasn't embraced the melting-pot idea.
According to degas: >>Judyrem, at the risk of being called a racist, I'd venture to say that some of them want to spread thier culture and impose thier religion and values on other people in other lands.<<
Oh, like evangelical Christians and Mormons, you mean?
The sad thing is that degas doesn't see what he's doing.
According to degas: >>Judyrem, at the risk of being called a racist, I'd venture to say that some of them want to spread thier culture and impose thier religion and values on other people in other lands.<<
Oh, like evangelical Christians and Mormons, you mean?
The sad thing is that degas doesn't see what he's doing.
Oct 28th, 2009, 03:13 PM
#106
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yes j999 Christians has been spreading the word and impacting cultures since the Roman Empire days. What's wrong with other religions doing the same thing. Oh, yeah, it's not the "right" religion.
Having said that change is hard and it would be hard for me too to see minerette's sprinkled around Switzerland.
Having said that change is hard and it would be hard for me too to see minerette's sprinkled around Switzerland.
Oct 28th, 2009, 03:52 PM
#109
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Second Cholmondley Warner's remark of October 16, 7:20 a.m.) re Wahhabists pushing their rigid agenda via Saudi Arabian financing of mosques.
I think the Wahhabists, more than any other group, are responsible for the apprehension so many non-Muslims have toward the entire religion of Islam, even though Islam is so much more than Wahhabism. Rather like most major religions have several quite different sects operating within the religion. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Christians are fundmentalists. Not all Hindus are nationalists who support the intimidation and harassment of non-Hindus. And so on.
Apres Londee has referenced the Muslim Canadian Congress, of which Tarek Fatah is, or at least was, a notable member. I heard him on CBC a couple months ago and a more rational sounding person one could not hope for. He spoke fondly of the mosques as he remembered them in his youth: community gathering centres where young people hung out and were told from time to time, "hey guys, could you keep it down? Some people are actually trying to pray here..." Yet too often today, he said, mosques were being kidnapped by people with politcal agendas, often violent ones.
Up against people like Fatah are various nasties who not only have mobbed and threatened him personally, but who make such lovely statements as: homosexuals sin against Islam and ought to be killed; all Israelis over the age of 18 are fair game;, etc. etc.
So there you have it, two, very different, faces of a religion. So you can't just evaluate a minaret as a minaret, you have to know more about the particular people associated with said minaret. Banning minarets won't solve a thing.
Nor will calling out people as racists or fascists solve a thing.
And on that note: this thread is going to be closed down faster than a speak-easy on raid night if people insist on trying to fight real or perceived racism by attacking other posters.
I think the Wahhabists, more than any other group, are responsible for the apprehension so many non-Muslims have toward the entire religion of Islam, even though Islam is so much more than Wahhabism. Rather like most major religions have several quite different sects operating within the religion. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Christians are fundmentalists. Not all Hindus are nationalists who support the intimidation and harassment of non-Hindus. And so on.
Apres Londee has referenced the Muslim Canadian Congress, of which Tarek Fatah is, or at least was, a notable member. I heard him on CBC a couple months ago and a more rational sounding person one could not hope for. He spoke fondly of the mosques as he remembered them in his youth: community gathering centres where young people hung out and were told from time to time, "hey guys, could you keep it down? Some people are actually trying to pray here..." Yet too often today, he said, mosques were being kidnapped by people with politcal agendas, often violent ones.
Up against people like Fatah are various nasties who not only have mobbed and threatened him personally, but who make such lovely statements as: homosexuals sin against Islam and ought to be killed; all Israelis over the age of 18 are fair game;, etc. etc.
So there you have it, two, very different, faces of a religion. So you can't just evaluate a minaret as a minaret, you have to know more about the particular people associated with said minaret. Banning minarets won't solve a thing.
Nor will calling out people as racists or fascists solve a thing.
And on that note: this thread is going to be closed down faster than a speak-easy on raid night if people insist on trying to fight real or perceived racism by attacking other posters.
Oct 28th, 2009, 04:42 PM
#110
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So what are you saying apres londee? Are Muslims fitting in well in Europe hmmm? Madrid, London, Netherlands France Austria? Just like peas in a pod IMO. Whatever you say, Jews have not tried to kill hundreds in Europe or US or Bali or the Philipines. Indonesia,,,and the the beat goes on.... gee, I am starting to feel all warm and fuzzy about Islam.
Oct 28th, 2009, 06:52 PM
#111
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Judyrem,
I'm not European and I'm not qualified to opine on how well Muslim immigrants may or may not be integrating into European society. As far as the situation in Europe, I only have some extremely limited and somewhat second hand experience. For what it’s worth, here it is.
First example:
Every year my dad takes co-op kids from a school in France for a semester. They come to Canada to do English immersion. One year the students were two girls from Muslim families. One girl's family immigrated to France from Algeria, the other from Morocco. They had Arabic first and last names. They were your stereotypically stylish, sophisticated French girls. They celebrated Muslim holidays. They did not attend mosque although they said their parents did. They became quite close to my parents and still keep in touch. Shortly after they returned to France, one of the girls' moms had a new baby boy. They named him Ryan.
I'm not European and I'm not qualified to opine on how well Muslim immigrants may or may not be integrating into European society. As far as the situation in Europe, I only have some extremely limited and somewhat second hand experience. For what it’s worth, here it is.
First example:
Every year my dad takes co-op kids from a school in France for a semester. They come to Canada to do English immersion. One year the students were two girls from Muslim families. One girl's family immigrated to France from Algeria, the other from Morocco. They had Arabic first and last names. They were your stereotypically stylish, sophisticated French girls. They celebrated Muslim holidays. They did not attend mosque although they said their parents did. They became quite close to my parents and still keep in touch. Shortly after they returned to France, one of the girls' moms had a new baby boy. They named him Ryan.
Oct 28th, 2009, 06:55 PM
#112
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Second example:
My sister lives in the UK. Her city has the highest ratio of Muslim immigrants in the country. For a while she worked as a substitute teacher while looking for a job in her field. She taught a younger grade, maybe grade 1 or 2, for about 1/2 a year while the regular teacher was out sick. Muslim kids with immigrant parents made up ½ her class.
As part of the school curriculum, the kids learn about and celebrate a variety of religious holidays throughout the year- Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindi, Buddhist, Sikh. The school does a Christmas nativity play every year and she has a lot of funny stories about helping to organize that.
Anyways, many of the moms of these kids were quite conservative and wore full hijab with only their eyes visible. My sister said these moms were wary of her at first and kind of distant and it made her nervous because she couldn't recognize which mom belonged with which kid so she couldn’t really address them personally.
One day she was able to have a chat with one of the moms and after that they all warmed up to her and would talk with her for a few minutes each day. My sister said she learned to recognize them by their eyes. I asked her if it wasn't weird talking to women dressed like that. She shrugged and said it wasn’t a big deal because they were just nice, normal people under the robes like any of the other parents.
My sister lives in the UK. Her city has the highest ratio of Muslim immigrants in the country. For a while she worked as a substitute teacher while looking for a job in her field. She taught a younger grade, maybe grade 1 or 2, for about 1/2 a year while the regular teacher was out sick. Muslim kids with immigrant parents made up ½ her class.
As part of the school curriculum, the kids learn about and celebrate a variety of religious holidays throughout the year- Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Hindi, Buddhist, Sikh. The school does a Christmas nativity play every year and she has a lot of funny stories about helping to organize that.
Anyways, many of the moms of these kids were quite conservative and wore full hijab with only their eyes visible. My sister said these moms were wary of her at first and kind of distant and it made her nervous because she couldn't recognize which mom belonged with which kid so she couldn’t really address them personally.
One day she was able to have a chat with one of the moms and after that they all warmed up to her and would talk with her for a few minutes each day. My sister said she learned to recognize them by their eyes. I asked her if it wasn't weird talking to women dressed like that. She shrugged and said it wasn’t a big deal because they were just nice, normal people under the robes like any of the other parents.
Oct 28th, 2009, 06:57 PM
#113
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Third Example:
When I was visiting my sister in England last Christmas there were tons of Muslim families and kids out doing all the Christmas activities downtown- meeting Father Christmas and sitting on his knee, petting the mechanical reindeer, and admiring the lights and nativity displays.
Now I don’t live in Europe but I live in a big Canadian city where literally half of the population is first generation immigrants from all over the world, including many Muslims. We all manage to get along quite well. When I think about it, it’s pretty amazing really. I have friends, acquaintances and co-workers who are Muslim- most are secular, others are religiously observant to varying, mild degrees.
So here’s what I’m saying Judyrem: it's an insult to every single one of the people I mention above when “Muslims” are painted with a single brush as being uncivilized bloodthirsty extremists.
Debate about minarets in rural landscapes, or immigration policies, or politics and religion is one thing. Dehumanizing an entire group of people because of their religion and ethnicity is just bigotry pure and simple.
When I was visiting my sister in England last Christmas there were tons of Muslim families and kids out doing all the Christmas activities downtown- meeting Father Christmas and sitting on his knee, petting the mechanical reindeer, and admiring the lights and nativity displays.
Now I don’t live in Europe but I live in a big Canadian city where literally half of the population is first generation immigrants from all over the world, including many Muslims. We all manage to get along quite well. When I think about it, it’s pretty amazing really. I have friends, acquaintances and co-workers who are Muslim- most are secular, others are religiously observant to varying, mild degrees.
So here’s what I’m saying Judyrem: it's an insult to every single one of the people I mention above when “Muslims” are painted with a single brush as being uncivilized bloodthirsty extremists.
Debate about minarets in rural landscapes, or immigration policies, or politics and religion is one thing. Dehumanizing an entire group of people because of their religion and ethnicity is just bigotry pure and simple.
Oct 28th, 2009, 08:31 PM
#114
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Apres_Londee - Kudos to you! Thanks for fighting the good fight. Your various comments and examples are right on the mark.
Frankly I'm amazed that in this day and age people would not recognize how offensive it is to say some of the things that were said on this thread. As you so rightly illustrate, similar inaccurate generalizations about blacks, whites, Jews, Catholics, etc. would be recognized as being beyond the pale ... but use Muslims as the target and it's open season evidently.
There are ultra-fundamentalist Jews and Christians who have very similar beliefs to Muslims about women for example - that women should not be allowed to drive, shouldn't be allowed to sit on the same bus as men, etc. So should we live in fear of the "Jewish/Christian oppression of women"? And let's not even get started on Catholics - Catholic priests have raped and molested thousands of American children. (I don't think the same can be said about Muslims.) So let's start making gross (!) generalizations about ALL Catholics and how EVERY SINGLE one of them is trying to pervert American children and destroy our way of life. Quick deport everyone who is or might be Catholic!
What ignorance.
Frankly I'm amazed that in this day and age people would not recognize how offensive it is to say some of the things that were said on this thread. As you so rightly illustrate, similar inaccurate generalizations about blacks, whites, Jews, Catholics, etc. would be recognized as being beyond the pale ... but use Muslims as the target and it's open season evidently.
There are ultra-fundamentalist Jews and Christians who have very similar beliefs to Muslims about women for example - that women should not be allowed to drive, shouldn't be allowed to sit on the same bus as men, etc. So should we live in fear of the "Jewish/Christian oppression of women"? And let's not even get started on Catholics - Catholic priests have raped and molested thousands of American children. (I don't think the same can be said about Muslims.) So let's start making gross (!) generalizations about ALL Catholics and how EVERY SINGLE one of them is trying to pervert American children and destroy our way of life. Quick deport everyone who is or might be Catholic!
What ignorance.
Oct 29th, 2009, 01:09 AM
#115
Interesting thoughts. Some disappoint me and some are enlightening.
The vote is happening sometime in November. I'll keep you posted on the outcome.
Presently, another Muslim issue has hit our papers. There's a young Muslim woman who is demanding the right to play women's competitive basketball with her headscarf on. Switzerland's basketball association has vetoed that idea stating the dangers of wearing a scarf can be dangerous on the basketball court and religious symbols are not allowed. She has retorted that it's her religious right. She's got a lawyer on her side and she's going to court.
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/search/R...t&sid=11186203
The vote is happening sometime in November. I'll keep you posted on the outcome.
Presently, another Muslim issue has hit our papers. There's a young Muslim woman who is demanding the right to play women's competitive basketball with her headscarf on. Switzerland's basketball association has vetoed that idea stating the dangers of wearing a scarf can be dangerous on the basketball court and religious symbols are not allowed. She has retorted that it's her religious right. She's got a lawyer on her side and she's going to court.
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/search/R...t&sid=11186203
Oct 29th, 2009, 02:06 AM
#116
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<i>Switzerland's basketball association has vetoed that idea stating the dangers of wearing a scarf can be dangerous on the basketball court and religious symbols are not allowed.</i>
They can't be serious? I can't begin to fathom how a headscarf is dangerous on a basketball court, particularly some of the headcoverings designed for active pursuits. Big thumbs down to both FIBA and the Swiss association.
They can't be serious? I can't begin to fathom how a headscarf is dangerous on a basketball court, particularly some of the headcoverings designed for active pursuits. Big thumbs down to both FIBA and the Swiss association.
Oct 29th, 2009, 05:36 AM
#118
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"What ignorance." What would be ignorant would be to know that an unfortuanate number of Catholic Priests engaged in the dispicable behavior and then just pretend that it never happened. Or worse, call anyone a name who dared discuss the issue.
We know that there is a threat from the Muslim world. Does that mean we ban Islam or arrest all Muslims? Of course not. However, we would be absolutely ignorant to pretend there isn't an issue here. Why must we ignore certain issues on the basis of political correctness and, further, why do people want to silence any discussion of the issue through shouts of racism?! We will not be able to address legitimate issues, if we can't discuss them. I would go so far as to suggest if we can't discuss the actual causes and concerns about Islamic terrorism, that will FOSTER racism out of fear and misunderstanding.
On the issue of the melting pot, it seems the relatively recent Paris riots would have some relevance to this discussion?
We know that there is a threat from the Muslim world. Does that mean we ban Islam or arrest all Muslims? Of course not. However, we would be absolutely ignorant to pretend there isn't an issue here. Why must we ignore certain issues on the basis of political correctness and, further, why do people want to silence any discussion of the issue through shouts of racism?! We will not be able to address legitimate issues, if we can't discuss them. I would go so far as to suggest if we can't discuss the actual causes and concerns about Islamic terrorism, that will FOSTER racism out of fear and misunderstanding.
On the issue of the melting pot, it seems the relatively recent Paris riots would have some relevance to this discussion?
Oct 29th, 2009, 05:48 AM
#119
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Dr. Phyllis Chesler feminist author, academic and expert on women and Islam has this to say about the head scarf, in part:
"muslim women are not given a choice about wearing the chador, burgua, abaya, nifir, jibab or hibab, those that refuse are beaten, threatend with death, arrested, caned, jailed or honor murdered by their own families"
Oh, and the wearing of these body bags has nothing to do with maintaining the modesty of the woman, it is all about maintaining the honor of the MAN. She calls it Gender Apartheid.
"muslim women are not given a choice about wearing the chador, burgua, abaya, nifir, jibab or hibab, those that refuse are beaten, threatend with death, arrested, caned, jailed or honor murdered by their own families"
Oh, and the wearing of these body bags has nothing to do with maintaining the modesty of the woman, it is all about maintaining the honor of the MAN. She calls it Gender Apartheid.
