itsallaboutthetrips

I have spent the last few months combing this sight and others planning a trip for me and my DH to Germany, Switzerland and perhaps Austria for 2011. I will admit my head is spinning each time I sit down and do more research, but it's a good spinning as I really do enjoy it.

Unlike our trip to Ireland a few years ago, there are so many more options for getting around Germany. In Ireland we rented a car, picked 4 bases for which to explore quaint towns, castles and pubs. We drove 1200 miles in two weeks. The trip was perfect for our style of traveling and much easier to plan.

The first decision we have to make is when to go. We have been empty nesters for a few years and no longer have to travel during peak seasons. Yeah! We have narrowed it down to going for two weeks, leaving the first week in June or the end of September. Are there advantages to one of those dates over the other?

We have a wish list of cities in the country to visit. Around Frankfurt we hope to visit Cologne, Cochem, Trier, and briefly visit the cities along the middle Rhine, Boppard, St. Goar, Oberwesel, Bacharach, and Rudesheim. Like in Ireland, we'd like to visit quaint towns, old churches, castles and restaurants for some authentic German food.

Our early thoughts are to fly into Frankfurt. With Cologne being the farthest north we plan to visit, we are thinking about spending the first night in Frankfurt rather than chance having to go too far after a red-eye flight. The number one thing to do in Frankfurt on Trip Advisor is to take the Inside Tour (a three hour walking tour of the city). We thought we would do that our second day after a good nights sleep and afterwords take a train to Cologne. I am really looking forward to seeing the Dom. The Gestapo Prison is something else we thought might be of interest. Other than those two things, are there other sites in Cologne we should consider visiting?

Not knowing how long we need to spend in Cologne, would we be better off finding a base in and around the St. Goar area and making Cologne a day trip from there? If so, any recommendations of a city in that area to use as a base? How many days should we plan to take in the middle Rhine cities I mentioned along with Cochem & Trier? Is it best to get around to these cities by one of the river cruise boats?

We would like to avoid renting a car and driving but realize it may be easier in some areas to have a car. Other cities we hope to visit are Rothenburgh and around Fussen to visit King Ludwig castles. We are really intrigued by and would like to visit Zugspitze Mountain and Mittenwald. Lastly Grindelwald in Switzerland if time prevails.

Considering our style of traveling (1200 miles, four bases in 2 weeks in Ireland), does a week for the Frankfurt, Cologne, Middle Rhine area and then the second week for the remainder cities seem doable? Or am I way off base? Can anyone suggest a better itinerary taking those cities into consideration? Any suggestions or recommendations are greatly appreciated.

I realize we still have a lot of planing to do so I suspect I will be back asking more questions as our trip planning unfolds. Many thanks in advance.

violetduck

Thought I would share our recent itinerary since you mention some of the places. We had 16 days. I usually plan for 2 weeks there and 2 travel days and travel by train,bus and boat. In September we flew into Zurich and took a direct train from the airport to Lindau on Lake Konstanz with boat daytrip to Meersburg , then on to Fuessen, then Mittenwald (daytrip to Garmisch-Partenkirchen), next St. Wolfgang in the Salzgammergut area of Austria with daytrips to St. Gilgen, Hallstatt and Bad Ischl and last stop,
Landshut,Germany near the Munich airport. We did not want any large cities this trip. The scenery was awesome. Hope this is helpful and not just confusing : ) I
doubt that you can go wrong wherever you decide to go.

swandav2000

Hi itsallaboutthetrips,

I think your basic plan is a good one. However, I think that getting to Grindelwald in the middle of this Germany trip will be too far to go with too little time there. It'll take you about five-six hours of travel to get there & back. Now, you CAN get it done if you fly into Zürich and out of München -- then you would do Zürich-Grindelwald for three nights, then train to Frankfurt/Köln for a week, then train to Bavaria for four-five days. That will give you all you want to see in the same time.

A few other comments:

Grindelwald isn't wonderful in the high season. Because it's as high as the tour busses can go, that's where they do go; they line the streets, and the offloaded passengers clog up the sidewalks and the shops. If you want to see the Jungfrau region, you may want to stay in a peaceful and beautiful car-free village like Wengen or Mürren. More information at

www.myjungfrau.ch

One central spot for all you want to see in Bavaria is Garmisch-Partenkirchen. There are direct busses to Füssen and direct trains to Mittenwald, and of course the Zugspitz sits just outside of town.

For rail travel, use the Swiss or the German rail site

www.rail.ch

www.bahn.de

Have fun as you plan!

s

itsallaboutthetrips

Thank you both for your quick responses. These are great ideas that I will definitely look into. Unfortunately flying into Zürich is almost twice as much as it is into Frankfurt from NYC. I may have to forgo seeing Grindelwald if we can't fit it in.

I still hope to hear from others with regards to the best time to visit and the best way to take in the cities along the Rhine. We could also consider early May. I just have to be around for the third Saturday in May for a College graduation.

NanBug

I would be tempted to skip the Rhine and spend that time on the Mosel, instead.

I'd also want to get out of Frankfurt immediately upon landing, if you can take the train. With so many places on your list to see, I'm not sure it's worth spending most of the day and one night in Frankfurt. Not that it's bad, it's just not high on my list of "must sees" in Germany.

There are lots of trip reports here, so a quick search for Mosel or Rhine and you'll get lots of itinerary ideas and routing options.

swandav2000

Hi again,

I would prefer September, which I think would be warmer and more flower-full. For the past two summers (all I've experienced so far in Bavaria), June is still pretty chilly as we continue to shake off the winter. The flowers are still somewhat young.

No, I would not go in May at all!

Have fun!

s

rex

To "Itsall..." (interesting screen name!)

This is my first time to come out of the woodwork here in quite a long time (after something like ten thousand posts here, 1999-2009; it almost seems surreal to think that the number really was that high!)

... and I actually wondered if I would feel like I didn't have anything useful to contribute. Still, a few sound ideas about traveling in Europe (and specifically in Germany) do not change from one decade to another

And this feels like a trip that I could get into planning myself, if I were in your shoes - - in particular, my last trip (May 2009) DID incorporate Cologne and two nights in Oberwesel (Castle Hotel auf Schönburg).

In the event you would like to read how the planning for that trip played out... it is mostly here:

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...urope-long.cfm

There really is SO much to like about traveling in Germany; if you ask 10 people here, you will surely get 50 answers of wonderful destinations - - if I am good for anything, it's pulling old posts out of the "archives" here...

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...in-germany.cfm

There were 25 replies to this (almost) 10-years-old post, and no doubt IT had 50 ideas of places to love in Germany.

So, now - - as then - - I just don't think there is any substitute for reading, reading, reading... to get an idea of the places you think you will like most. That said, though, some of my best memories from Germany (some listed in that old 2001 post, some not) were a hodgepodge from the obvious - - Burg Eltz, Kölner Dom (Cologne Cathedral), Rothenburg der Tauber, Neuschwanstein - - some "stumble-upons" (Oberkirch, Parkhotel Wasserburg-Anholt, Schloss Neuweier) and at least one specific recommendation that I received here on Fodors - - just last year... I have to credit "yipper" here for recommending the aforementioned Castle Hotel auf Schönburg (curiously enough, "yipper" had never been there, and I still do not really know "who is" yipper?) - - this is truly an awesome place to stay (and I am VERY jaded!)

Based on the style of travel you enjoyed in Ireland, I definitely think that you are the single best judge of what would constitute "too many miles" or "too much moving around". I once did a "scouting trip" of only five nights, covering the terrain from Paris (via the Black Forest, Munich, Salzburg and Venice) to (almost) Rome (the province of Rieti), AND returned! ...via Grasse (near Nice) and criss-crossing Burgundy to turn the car in (back in Paris) with roughly 4000 km on it (in just six days). Crazy, yet fantastic. (Of course, I could never recommend this approach to anyone else - - it was for the sole purpose of checking out places to stay, in seven different locations).

Driving HAS changed, from the late 90's to today, in some ways. Just recently, I actually heard about a trip - - one of my wife's colleagues... he had never been to a non-English-speaking country before - - and he went on a ten day driving trip through Germany with his wife - - NEVER EVEN USING A MAP, NOT EVEN ONCE!

How? I actually thought I knew the answer - - I have explored many a city (in Germany, but also in other parts of Europe) just following the "directional signs"; sometimes half a dozen roads will lead "in the direction of" the city you're trying to reach. It's a practice used far more commonly than "the A numbers" (autobahn, autoroute, autostrada)... like our "I numbers" indicating interstate highways. And the universal "Centrum" symbol (looks like a bulls'eye) is amazingly effective for getting you to the heart of Munich or Cologne or countless other cities.

Surprisingly though, my wife's friend never needed any old-fashioned navigating... the car's built-in GPS (programmed in English) led him by the nose from one place after another!

You never really spell out what might be your plan(s) for an "ending" to this trip. Even with my love of wandering about, I don't see how you fit any of Switzerland into this itinerary. You don't specify Munich as a "base", but it probably makes the most sense for a fly-home-from airport/city; it certainly makes sense for Schloss Linderhof (the jewelbox "little cousin" of the King Ludwig castles and definitely worthwhile), as well as Neuschwanstein (but perhaps not make the trip out and back in the same day). And you will find TONS of other reasons to like Munich, inside and out.

So starting in Frankfurt (or maybe even better, Cologne) and cutting a wide counter-clockwise arc through the northern part of the Black Forest, wending your way east to Bavaria... does make sense to me.

You're just going to have make some tough choices of places to see, places to stay (and give yourself at least one or two relatively unplanned segments to discover the cool places in a short radius of where you sleep).

I hope this helps, in some way; there really is an incredible treasure chest of expertise and experience you can dig through... here on Travel Talk.

To my old friends who developed a tolerance (or learned to like) these way-too-lengthy answers of mine, maybe I can come back visiting more regularly in the coming year. And to countless new-friends-to-be... I always have believed that "newbies" are the lifeblood of this forum. Travel info is inherently <I>perishable</i>... and the perspectives of someone who was <U>just</U> there, even if it is their first trip to a place... will often trump the reveries of a "veteran" ("old codger", like me... LOL) that are no longer as fresh as they could be.

Best wishes,

Rex
[email protected]

p.s. would the idea of another "Fodorites' trip" appeal to anyone? No specific destination(s) on my mind...

Aramis

I am continually surprised at people posting inaccurate information based on a couple of subjective experiences. If you don't know something, don't post a response. Someone may actually rely on your information.

Munich, on average, is considerably warmer in the first two weeks of June than in the last two weeks of September - 5 degrees C to be precise. And, yes, it is still warmer in all of May than it is in September

The same general trend exists throughout Germany for those two periods. Here are some facts to support that;

MUNICH AVERAGE TEMPERATURES JUNE 1 - JUNE 15, since 2000

The Average High Temperature is 21 C with a historical range of 8 C to 33 C
The Average Low Temperature is 13 C with a historical range of 5 C to 21 C
There is a 1% chance of a Hot Day (temperature over 90°F / 32°C).
There is a 85% chance of a Warm Day (temperature over 60°F / 16°C).
There is a 0% chance of a Freezing Day (temperature below 32°F / 0°C).

MUNICH AVERAGE TEMPERATURES SEPT 15 - SEPT 30, since 2000

The Average High Temperature is 16 C with a historical range of 5 C to 26 C
The Average Low Temperature is 8 C with a historical range of 0 C to 15 C
There is a 0% chance of a Hot Day (temperature over 90°F / 32°C).

There is a 62% chance of a Warm Day (temperature over 60°F / 16°C).

There is a 0% chance of a Freezing Day (temperature below 32°F / 0°C).

smetz

Hi it-

I was just in Frankfurt for the day last week, and I would agree with Nanbug that it isn't very interesting for tourism. I'm sure it's a nice place to live, but I think you'd do much better just getting on the train in the morning when you arrive, and heading out toward Cologne or somewhere else in your itinerary. As far as your mode of travel, of course a lot of personal preference is involved, but train travel is so easy and cheap, it's the way that I would go. For the time of year, August and September are very nice because they are harvesting grapes and having lots of festivals & other events, and it's pretty lively. One of my favorite activities in Germany is drinking wine out in the fresh air, whether it's at a festival or at a wine stand in the market square.

As far as the small towns along the Rhine and Mosel go, for me they begin to feel a bit repetitive after a while. They are all very pretty, and you may not mind the similarity, but I like more variety. Cologne, of course, is bigger, as is Trier, so including those two cities could be a very good idea. Trier, especially, is worth visiting due to its ancient Roman ruins, which are fascinating. The dom there also contains an amazing relic - a robe believed to be worn by Jesus.

One place to consider as a base for the Rhine and Mosel cities is Koblenz. It's a medium sized city with a pretty large altstadt and a good sized shopping area, and it's located at the confluence of the Rhine & Mosel. You can take trains from Koblenz either up the Rhine or up the Mosel to visit smaller towns along those rivers, and you could add in some segments with boat trips. As far as using boats as a primary mode of travel I wouldn't suggest it - they're slow and they get a little boring after a while. Better to use trains as the main way to get around, and select some shorter boat trips based on maximum scenic value.

swandav2000

wow Aramis. Since I'm the only one who posted about the weather, I guess you're addressing me.

My "couple of subjective experiences" are two full summers. I moved to Bavaria in Oct 08 and have been living here since then. I have experienced only two summers here, though.

I'll add a few thoughts.

One is that I'm living in Garmisch-Partenkirchen next to the mountains. Yes, it's usually warmer in München when I go up there.

The other thing is that average temps can go out the window. The weather is completely unpredictable these days --

s

Cowboy1968

Weather has become more or less unpredictable.

April is supposed to be the proverbial month of 4 seasons in one day. The last years it was almost too hot, and "reliably" sunny and dry.

May is a mixed bag. Usually nice. Well, usually..
The last years it felt "too cold and unstable", though. A bit like April was supposed to be.
Vegetation along the Rhine or Mosel will be in full spring mode. But that is not yet the case in Munich or even where swandav lives. Still a good chance of snow in the highest elevations.

First week of June is 90% sure bet on bad weather. How do I know? My mom's birthday is in that time, and we always planned for a garden party which in 9 out of 10 years turned into an indoor party with the heating on full.

July was Death Valley this year.

August has started to turn from a true summer month (some older folks can still remember that) into a mid-summer fall month. Pack a jacket, forget the sunscreen.

September is usually nice and warm. And "usually" more reliably warm and sunny. So September is "usually" the best all-purpose, all-regions month for a vacation. The only problem could be Munich if you have/want to go there during Oktoberfest due to the high hotel prices.

Aramis

>> "average temps can go out the window"

Really? But they are average. The are what they are.

Again, people's fascination with their own, highly misremembered, subjective experiences is endlessly interesting.

Now, it looks like you should avoid the "sure bet" treacherous first week of June entirely. This is going to cause some chaos in travel plans worldwide.

Cowboy1968

It's just 42 years of experience of living in this country.
Since when do you live in Germany, Mr Statistics?

From a meteorological perspective, almost all of Germany still has a maritime climate - which makes it much more volatile than that of a great deal of the North American continent. Which makes averages much more bogus than in areas with steady continental climates.

E.g. in Munich:
June record daytime high: 8C/33C. Obviously the average may be 21C, but if you worship statistics you should look at the standard deviation not the average, i.e. what range can you expect with the most probability. For early June the 8C-33C historic range will rather be a 15C-25C range with the highest probability.
So you can expect either sunny "T-shirt weather" or drizzle, rain, wind and the need for a jacket.

It's absolutely not unusual to wear a sweater and rain jacket in Munich in early June at 15C max, and t-shirt and shorts at humid 30C just 2wks later.

bettyk

Well, we have spent two vacations in Europe in September -- in 2007 and 2009 and found the weather to be nice and the flowers beautiful.

We have spent this past week in Germany (Rothenburg, Meersburg and Berchtesgaden) and the weather has been quite cold but sunny except for the first day in Rothenburg.

Since Saturday we have been in Hallstatt, Austria (absolutely gorgeous weather) and today we are in St. Gilgen (overcast and cool but not cold).

We have yet to have any rain but it has been very cold for us who are from Texas and had weather in the high 80's the day we left the US. But there are fewer tourists and no crowds.

lindy27

No matter when you travel you can always get unpredictable weather. Either May or September should be fine weather wise. We were in Germany last summer in June and one week we were freezing on the Rhine and the next week warm in Berlin, just pack accordingly and you'll have a great time!

I live in Kansas where we have temperatures that range from 115F to -20F, so maybe I am just used to unpredictable weather.

Aramis

If you two (I'm not sure if your anecdotal description has you siding with them to make it three, betty) want to believe that your subjective experience trumps the meteorological averages, then no amount of explaining will help. You are logic deprived.

Sure, your points are all valid Cowboy - it can snow in June in Germany - terrific! But that doesn't change the fact that Germany is warmer in June than September - period. Advising someone to plan their vacation on another basis is foolish.

If you remember it as happening to you in the past, that is the way it will be in future? The exception will be the rule?.

Think about the points you are making - don't just try and defend your position regardless.

Cowboy - I forget where you live. Let me know and I will summarize the data for the first week of June and we will see how accurate your recollections are.

Sincerely, Mr. Statistics

LSky

Well okay then, I'm not going to comment on the weather.

Frankfurt, imo, is mildly interesting but if you're interested in the 3 hour walking tour then do it. It's a pretty quick trip on the train out of Frankfurt to get to someplace wonderful and I'd do that. Hop on the train and go.

You didn't mention if you had any interest in art. If you do, then the Ludwig in Cologne is well worth your time. We spent 5 hours there but you may not have that much interest in art.

I would chose May/June over September, simply because so many people travel to Germany in September.

We just returned from Germany/Austria last Thursday. It was sunny, rainy and snowy.

Rex has given some excellent advise about following the directional signs while driving in Germany/Austria if you don't rent a car with gps. I think of it as the "trust system"

itsallaboutthetrips

Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond and offer your advice, experiences and opinions. This was just what I was looking for and I’m noting them all as I continue planning.

When we go is still up in the air. I think it will depend on how much planning I can accomplish giving us ample time to make arrangements. One thing I think you have convinced me of is heading out of Frankfurt upon arrival and either stay in Koblenz or Cologne. Thank you Nanbug & Smetz!

Rex, the timing of you deciding to come out of the woodwork is my good fortune. You have offered a wealth of great advice. The links to old posts have saved me so much time on research. I am taking your advice and doing lots of reading. Thank you thank you.

Cowboy 1968, how funny you know firsthand about the first week in June. Well maybe not too funny. We were actually leaning towards that week since our last trip to Europe three years ago. We had 12 straight days of sunshine in Ireland of all countries. We remember hearing on the local radio while there that they often had nice weather during the exams given each year that week. I guess we shouldn’t judge Germany’s weather by Ireland's.

Smetz, thank you too for the information on the towns along the Rhine and the mode of travel. Your response answered a lot of my questions. I wondered if the towns would start to look repetitive. We just can’t decide which ones we should see and which ones to skip. They all seem to have some unique qualities. Do you have any favorites?

Finally, thank you one and all. I’m sure to be back as the planning unfolds for more of your excellent advice.

smetz

its, I haven't been to all of the towns on the Rhine, and I know that there are others on the forum who know them better than me. I have been to Rudesheim, Oberwesel, St. Goar (though that was at night for Rhine in Flames), Bacharach, and Boppard. I liked Bacharach the best. In addition to the typical pretty town, it has ruins of a chapel above the town that you can walk up to, and it also has an observation tower in a vineyard above the town, that provides beautiful views of the Rhine valley. If you do have the opportunity to be there for Rhine in Flames, which is a fireworks show, my wife and I found it to be absolutely spectacular. I believe we took a boat from Oberwesel north to Boppard, which is about 1 to 1.5 hours, with lots of castles, and it goes through the Lorelei pass.

On the Mosel, Cochem is not to be missed. Pretty town, larger than most on the Rhine or Mosel, lots of restaurants and wine pubs, and a few other activities like a restored castle and a chair lift into the hills above the town. You can also take a boat trip of about an hour south to Beilstein, which is very nice. If you're into walking, there is a great walk of about an hour to an hour & a half from Moselkern, which has a train station, to Burg Elz, which is one of the better castle tours in the area.

Mimar

You can take the train directly from the Frankfurt airport to Cologne or Koblenz. Assuming you will arrive after an overnight flight, it's better to be in a city while getting over jetlag. (More options in between naps.) So I'd stay in one of those cities for a few days.

Don't miss Burg Eltz. Unlike so many castles which are piles of stones, it has been continuously inhabited. And it's nicely sited.