rex

I really do think I can make informed decisions on this myself, but with so many valued friends here, it can't hurt to ask for some input.

Background: for those of you who know me, I am (I think) reasonably qualified to call myself a "veteran" - - this will be my 26th trip (though there never seems to be a problem finding places and experiences that are new to me); my wife is starting to come close to being a veteran also; her 14th trip, I think. She does okay with some tourist-level French and maybe some Italian, not so much other languages (though even in German she can sight read tiny little street names on a city map and pronounce correctly enough to navigate when we drive)

My brother and his wife are almost our same ages (they are 53, 54) and have never been out of the US unless maybe it was Cancun or Nassau sometime. He has said it has been on his agenda to go to Europe with us for at least 5 or 10 years, but it kinda always seemed to be "not the right time" (for one thing they had twin boys in high school, up through 2007).

So, now he feels like "let's not put this off any further - - where would you recommend we go for a week?" I think he wants to go on a "taster/sampler" trip and does not care that he cannot "really get to know" any region or country on the itinerary. I have tried to persuade him to lengthen to 10 days/9 nights but he seems pretty firm on 8 days/7 nights. No point in getting into an argument from square one. Seven nights it is.

I think he wants to go to the places where we feel like we particularly enjoy the destinations and can "show them around" best. The idea of going some place German-speaking appeals to him a little bit (he took three years of German in high school). We think that for his wife's sake, we might make a wise choice to include at least some portion in a destination that is relatively more "English-friendly"; this is a very vague subjective idea we have, based on her personality. What qualifies as "English-friendly"? well, the UK, of course, but maybe also Amsterdam or perhaps Paris. Normally, I prefer NOT taking family or friends to the UK - - I don't consider myself particularly knowledgeable about the the UK, and I figure people can go there on their own (if they are language-intimidated, for example) - - but this trip might be a worthy exception.

My wife and I like every place, but I would say that we like France and Italy best - - though we certainly like Germany and Austria a lot
too. We think Italy is not a good choice for this trip - - just too short unless it is Italy only, and then it's not much of a "sampler". We have a modest preference for small town Europe over big city Europe.

I think that budget will be little or no constraint (but no $400/night hotels - - I just really don't believe in 'em). I don't think we want any self-catering places (the trip is just too short for "slowtrav&quot. My brother's wife is definitely not a "foodie" (she is trim and tiny, and seems to eat just enough to stay alive!) and scarcely ever drinks wine.

What likes and travel habits do they have? Horses, golf, beaches - - though I don't think they want to go to Europe to find the same things they like at home. They like Hilton Head, Williamsburg, NYC, Hawaii, Colorado/Utah (skiing) - - hard to discern a pattern there.

I think we have agreed on late May, though there might be some revisiting the idea of moving the trip... on further into the summer.

So... lots of factors to consider here.

Here are some fairly different ideas:

Idea 1. London-to-Paris

Day 0 - depart US
Day 1,2,3 - 1 night in London, then 2 nights in Kent or 2 nights London, 1 night in Kent.

Day 4,5 - channel tunnel train on day 4 from Ebbsfleet or Ashford to Calais or Lille; rent car to spend 1 1/2 or 2 days exploring Picardy/Champagne/Ardenne; night 5 might or might not actually end up in Paris (not on the fly, just not sure yet what to propose)

Day 6,7 - in Paris

Day 8 - fly home from Paris.


Idea 2: Amsterdam to Stuttgart

Day 0 - fly from US
Day 1,2 - Amsterdam
Days 3,4,5,6,7 - train to Aachen; spread into two or three destinations in northwest Germany (Aachen, Cologne, Burg Eltz, Trier, Mosel valley, Heidelberg, Baden-Baden are some of the possibilities); possibly one night or day side trip into Strasbourg.
Day 8 - fly home from Stuttgart (one-stop good connections back home for us).

All of this would be new to my wife, and some of it would be new to me: Heidelberg and Trier, for example)

Idea 3. Aachen to Strasbourg (or Paris)
Day 0 - depart US, fly to Brussels
Day 1 (and 2?) - train/drive immediately to Aachen; stay there and/or explore in a small radius if two nights (Maastricht or Cologne, for example).
Days 3,4 (and 5?) meander through northwest Germany (some of the same destinations as above), end up in Strasbourg.
Days 6,7 - either base in Strasbourg/northern Alsace-Lorraine or northern Black Forest and explore one or the other... OR train straight to Paris (only 2h17 by TGV) from Strasbourg and finish there.
Day 8 - fly home (one-stop- connection from Paris, requires connect through PAR or LON to fly home from Strasbourg).

This itinerary, if it does not include Paris, has NO "big famous cities" (unless you count Cologne as a "big famous city" - - not on the top 25 for most Americans).

Idea 4: Munich (or Salzburg) to Geneva - - I would really only propose this if they really want to change the dates to later in the summer. I have done this trip before and it was fabulous in August. Can include a little of France at the end, though it would be better with some extra nights (so would every other itinerary!)

So, weigh in, everybody... or ask more questions that you would use to help "pitch" one idea versus another.

Thanks in advance, for all replies... and...

Best wishes,

Rex

Tim_and_Liz

My ILs are similar to your brother and his wife. We took them to Europe just over a year ago. They really wanted to go to Germany, we love Italy. We stayed in Munich, day tripped to Salzburg, then took the train from Munich to Venice, stayed in Venice, flew home from there.

They *loved* it. I think it was perfect for them. Just another idea.

Weekender

Fly to Zurich
Train to Lucerne
Train to Como (for Lake Como-couple of days in Bellagio/Menaggio)
Fly home from Milan or Venice.

Did this trip the end of May and weather was beautiful.

StCirq

Seems to me that a week in Switzerland would cover all the bases.

Christina

Actually, I agree with that idea. For timid travelers, Switzerland has a lot to offer, and is just a very beautiful and pleasant place to visit. I am thinking a diff. trip, not your just ending up in Geneva one. Something like flying into Zurich, taking the scenic railway, going to Lucerne, Montreux, and Lausanne, something like that. And it's do-able well in 8 days. It's also not hot in summer, at least not that much, especially in higher areas (I was in Verbier one summer for a music festival, and it could be downright nippy at night).

Other than that, your 1 and 3 sounds appealing. Most everybody likes London and Paris. Your 2 doesn't even appeal to me, but would not be what I'd recommend to someone for their first European trip. Would they be satisfied with that? I just hink most people would want to see some place a little more exciting or they've heard about so much for their first trip. I don't really like Amsterdam that well, however.

ira

Hi Rex,

With only 1 week, I would take them to Paris and tell them that everyone they meet is speaking German.

If not that, I go with the Switzerland suggestion.

zorrosf

IMO, it is more important to agree on procedures than places. What I mean is (1) what time will each couple be up and ready "to go" in the a.m.? Waiting around for 2 hours for BIL to get up and ready (or vice versa) might be frustrating; (2) How much time do they like to spend in museums, shops, churches? Some people can spend all day in one museum (and may be worthwhile), but with only 8 days, this may also be a frustration if you don't agree; (3) What price range are the meals you will share and even more important, how do they feel about "splitting the tab" evenly-is one couple the "Dom Perignon" type and the other Frexinet? Figure out how to pay for meals BEFORE you agree to go together; (4) How do they feel about splitting up-IOW, if you want to walk in the garden and they want to go to the cathedral, will they be OK? 8 days of 24/7 togetherness might be too much even for the nicest people.

Tess_Durberville

Why not browse through a few sites offering package tours as suggestions/guidlines and then put together your trip based on one of those?

For example, Munich-Salzburg-Vienna (2 nites each, rail in between) as per Go Today site >>> www.go-today.com

jenblase

Really, if you did Switzerland, you could get a taste of Germany, France, and Italy all in one country.

The obvious would be the London/Paris combo. It sounds like this couple may never get to Europe again, so these might be two cities they "should see" before worrying about embarking anywhere else.

But I really like Tim and Liz's idea. Maybe fly into Munich (or Frankfurt if it's cheaper), three nights in Munich, you could visit the Salzkammergut region of Austria (including Salzburg, but I would recommend spending at least a night there instead of a daytrip) and then proceed to Venice for three nights.

rex

I'll share with them the enthusiasm about Switzerland, even though I don't feel it personally, and I have told them that... making it clear that everyone has biases, and this happens to be mine. I think that Switzerland is over-priced and over-"yawn".

Having said that, I have enjoyed visits to Luzern (and in particular, Weggis, across the lake), and Altdorf (basically just a lunch stop) and Lugano seemed okay (just a stop on the way to Lake Como). I suppose I would like to see Sankt Gallen or the Bernese Oberland (I have "driven through" the valley that contains Interlaken and Thuner See, en route from Luzern to Chamonix, but never actually "been" there - - sacrilege to say this, I imagine... but... "ho-hum"...)

And isn't May a sloppy "end-of-ski-season" bad time of year in Switzerland? Aspen is to be avoided in May, I seem to recall. The badly picked-over sales from the ski season, and none of the music and arts scene arrived yet.

The Munich-to-Geneva trip IS a Switzerland itinerary. Seems better for August than May, to me.

I have made a great "loop trip" Munich-Salzburg-Venice-Bassano-Innsbruck and then back to Munich; it was an excellent trip even though it was not a great time of year (mid-March). But we think that there are already too many choices on the table, and favor taking Italy away... unless and until they are ready to give it a week of its own, and are not so much looking to "sample".

Of course, the whole "sample" notion IS a little bit bogus. What does Aachen tell you about Sevilla? Does Lake Como help you decide if you want to go Berlin or Dublin? "Sampling" ONE country is primarily useful to see if you want to come back and make more extended forays in THAT country, in my view.

But keep the input comin'...

maitaitom

I'll throw in my two euros worth:

Three nights Paris.
Rent a a car
Three nights Normandy (Visit Rouen on the way to, Honfleur, Bayeux and D-Day beaches)
Then back to Paris for one last night in gay Paree!

yk

For folks in their 50s who have never been to Europe... wouldn't they have some sort of inkling as to which place(s) they would like to see on their first trip?

rex

Replies 6, 7 and 8 were being composed as I was writing my first "reaction" post.

I agree that the "procedural" questions and conflict prevention are vitally important - - but I do have experience traveling, over the past decade, with our own kids, son-in-law's parents (Sicily this past summer), a gaggle of 16 uncles/aunts and in-laws and friends, a small army of nieces and nephews... three weeks with a bunch of fifth graders in Normandy, and at least once, leading a group trip of "total strangers" (the "Fodorites" trip of 2001) - - so I think I am prepared for this.

And we HAVE talked about it. Some time apart is an important tool to use. My wife and I used it effectively for our Turin-Burgundy-Paris trip with _her_ brother and wife two years ago.

Even so, it's good of you to bring it up, and this thread would be remiss without taking these issues head on.

Melissa5

Rex, I think if your friends were to come on-line and plan their trip with us, they would probably end up cutting their itinerary back a bit. Since you are planning the trip for them, I would use an enthusiastic approach to cut the itinerary back. They don't really understand Europe, never having been there. If they really want to benefit from your experience, they should just give you some basic input and just trust you and be flexible.

They can always book themselves into a very busy package tour and race around Europe without you. I think the benefit of going with you is so that they can experience independent travel at its best.

I think you'll be doing them a favor by making sure they benefit from your experience.

The trip planner always needs the most control, in my experience. It's the only way to plan a trip well.

I think they need you to be their travel guru, not their travel agent... There's a philosophical difference...

Have fun everyone!

rex

<< For folks in their 50s who have never been to Europe... wouldn't they have some sort of inkling as to which place(s) they would like to see on their first trip? >>

Barely... and I am not put off by that.

They say "anywhere would be new to us, fabulous... you know so much more than us..."

It just doesn't surprise me that much. He's a work-aholic (physician); they work hard, and play hard (when they do go on vacations; golfing or skking, for example, or tacking on some tourism to a medical meeting). I think that they WILL think about it... and it feels like part of my "job" to pick up on their facial response, the twinkle in their eyes (or lack thereof) when I talk about one place or another.

My initial reads were:

England (she) - twinkle...

France - hard to read (they already know we love France)

Germany/Austria - "cool" he muttered...

Italy - no reaction (I take this as a negative, I guess I wasn't "selling" Italy... but if you have to "sell" Italy, then maybe you have the wrong customer!)

Holland - - a thoughtfull "hmmm"... (I originally thought we might take the bargain biz-only flights on L'Avion/OpenSkies... but we have since abandoned that idea - - they might not be flying by May).

These have been VERY brief conversations - - the key thing is that he has decided this week... we are definitely committed to doing this in 2009, probably in May.

So, I want to present some cogent proposals - - then the real planning will begin.

And I probably will try to employ the same techniques I have repeatedly recommended here on this forum...

...get some big, coffee-table-sized picture-rich books, and look, more than read...

...see what makes you go "Oh yeah!" the most... close your eyes and visualize yourself on the trip - - what do you see?

Viajero2

I think that Germany and Austria offer a great introduction to Europe to North Americans.

Since he insists in only 7-8 days you do not want to pay tons of money to get there nor spend a lot of time on connections. Summer sales and number of flights on to German airports are way more frequent than say flights to CDG or AMS. Since you are the Lead Traveler you should try to go for a trip you have done already and enjoyed it enough to do it again. The Germany trip I think is the trip you need to go for. Inns and B&Bs in the German and Austrian countryside are plenty, cheap, and often in really wonderful settings.

Arrive/depart Munich, spend a couple of days and loop around the Bavarian Black Forest. Visit King Ludwig's castles; they are the "sure thing" to impress a first timer, drive on to Salzburg; he will never forget the gorgeous Alps.

The fact that he is comfortable with the German language will definitely help; the fact that English is so widespread will put his wife at ease.

Given all the factors and conditions, Germany should be your selection.

rosetravels

Rex - I agree that Germany would be a great intro. It's a very easy country for Americans to like and the towns along the Rhine can look and feel magical. The food is pretty simple and easy. I'd combine it with Vienna.

capxxx

Hi Rex

(I think we have the same relatives.)

I like the idea of a big city/small town combination. It would also be nice try and hit two countries if possible. So something like one of these appeals.

Paris + Mosel valley ..
Munich + Lucern, Lugano ..
or your Amsterdam to Stuttgart diea

The big city would give them the english-speaking start, and the small town tour will give them some relaxation.

Just my 2c.

chip

I have also done a southern germany, salzburg, venice...great trip...or maybe substitute prague for venice

off the target...but when you said horses and golf...immediately thought of ireland/scotland
(met lots of germans to chat with in irish pubs)

all of above are very english speaking/first tourist friendly (except maybe prague...and that is only if you stray from old town area)

ira

Hey Rex,
If your workaholic brother suddenly keels over from a heart attack, think how disappointed he will be gong to heaven with having been to Paris.

Do them a favor.

Take them to France.