Rex asks advice on taking brother and wife for first-time ever trip to Europe (long!)
Feb 25th, 2009, 01:31 PM
#81
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You only have 7 days, Rex. In that amount of time at maximum two stops is really all you have time for and I stand by London and Paris. Whatever they think Paris is, they will be glad they went after they go there.
Feb 25th, 2009, 03:29 PM
#82
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<< You only have 7 days, Rex. In that amount of time at maximum two stops is really all you have time for... >>
Evidently, we come from different planets.
Actually, it's eight nights now (which means, technically, nine days, not counting the departure day from the US - - so in my brother's eyes, this is TEN days).
And in 25 prior trips to Europe... with the exception of three business trips of three days' duration (single destination)... and one 21-day trip, staying the entire time with one family (as the chaperone to a dozen fifth graders, each in the home of a sponsoring family, respectively)...
...I have never made a trip (what I would call a "plain tourism trip/vacation") of fewer than three destinations, ever... and eight nights was one of the most common lengths of trips I have taken - - as previously stated... 3 nights/single destination on three occurrences, 6 weeks/8 countries once, 21 days once (all Normandy with Paris day trips), 17 days once (with 11 teenagers), 14 nights (leading a group of 16 adults total) - - all the rest were 5 to 11 nights, I think).
Indeed - - except for trips with a week-long villa stay (four trips), an equal mix of two-night stays and one-night stays is pretty much my norm. Just like this one... three two-night stays, and two one-night stays (our 2008 trip to Sicily was a little slower-paced... 1/3/3/2/2).
Evidently, we come from different planets.
Actually, it's eight nights now (which means, technically, nine days, not counting the departure day from the US - - so in my brother's eyes, this is TEN days).
And in 25 prior trips to Europe... with the exception of three business trips of three days' duration (single destination)... and one 21-day trip, staying the entire time with one family (as the chaperone to a dozen fifth graders, each in the home of a sponsoring family, respectively)...
...I have never made a trip (what I would call a "plain tourism trip/vacation") of fewer than three destinations, ever... and eight nights was one of the most common lengths of trips I have taken - - as previously stated... 3 nights/single destination on three occurrences, 6 weeks/8 countries once, 21 days once (all Normandy with Paris day trips), 17 days once (with 11 teenagers), 14 nights (leading a group of 16 adults total) - - all the rest were 5 to 11 nights, I think).
Indeed - - except for trips with a week-long villa stay (four trips), an equal mix of two-night stays and one-night stays is pretty much my norm. Just like this one... three two-night stays, and two one-night stays (our 2008 trip to Sicily was a little slower-paced... 1/3/3/2/2).
Feb 26th, 2009, 05:03 PM
#84
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<< You've already spent 8 days (or 9 or 10 counting day of departure) on this thread. >>
Isn't that what being a "Fodorite" is all about?
Since nieteen-SIXTY-nine, I have spent 200-300 days in Europe... and maybe 1000 days total "traveling" (on vacations - - I have had the need to "travel" 150 days a year for work during many years in the past 25 years).
But since nineteen-NINETY-nine, I suppose that I have spent three THOUSAND days on this forum, and more than once a day... way too often than I would care to guess...
Isn't that what being a "Fodorite" is all about?
Since nieteen-SIXTY-nine, I have spent 200-300 days in Europe... and maybe 1000 days total "traveling" (on vacations - - I have had the need to "travel" 150 days a year for work during many years in the past 25 years).
But since nineteen-NINETY-nine, I suppose that I have spent three THOUSAND days on this forum, and more than once a day... way too often than I would care to guess...
Feb 26th, 2009, 05:09 PM
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If you've spent so many days in Europe, Rex, then you are the big expert and shouldn't have bothered asking the rest of us how to plan your trip with your in laws because you already know everything.
Have fun!
Have fun!
Feb 27th, 2009, 09:08 AM
#87
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tsk, tsk, lk...
truth is - - I actually <U><I>did</I></U> get several useful ideas that I am really using (the recommendation to stay at Castle Hotel auf Schoenburg, and the suggestion to fly from LGW to CGN, and NOT going by Eurostar from England to "the continent").
An "expert" knows that there are different travel styles for different folks... and that all travel info is inherently very _perishable_ - - the "newbie" who has RECENTLY been to Burg Eltz has been there exactly the same number of times as I have... ONE - - and my "veteran" perspective, which is now ten years old is inherently less useful than the more current experience.
truth is - - I actually <U><I>did</I></U> get several useful ideas that I am really using (the recommendation to stay at Castle Hotel auf Schoenburg, and the suggestion to fly from LGW to CGN, and NOT going by Eurostar from England to "the continent").
An "expert" knows that there are different travel styles for different folks... and that all travel info is inherently very _perishable_ - - the "newbie" who has RECENTLY been to Burg Eltz has been there exactly the same number of times as I have... ONE - - and my "veteran" perspective, which is now ten years old is inherently less useful than the more current experience.
Feb 27th, 2009, 09:23 AM
#88
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Ah, there are now different travel styles for different folks. Actually, thanks for telling me that. After reading travel boards for yonks, I didn't know because I must be sooo stupid.
So what makes you think, rex, that your inlaws have the same travel style that you are going to impose on them?
So what makes you think, rex, that your inlaws have the same travel style that you are going to impose on them?
Feb 27th, 2009, 09:45 AM
#89
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I never called you stupid; I simply said what I (still) believe to be true...
<<It's as if you haven't read anything I have written about what I <U><I>know</U></I> about their probable likes and dislikes (and our own!) >>
This thread more or less "played out" between Feb 6 and Feb 9 - - then... roughly a week and a half later, I thought others might find some interest in knowing what decisions were made. How did I know that they might like expanding the itinerary to include Paris, rather than traveling "just" to England and Germany? I <U><I>asked</U></I> them. I laid out two different scenarios for them, and I talked to them, as I summarized above - - and THEY decided... "let's add one more night so that we can include Paris and not feel quite so rushed"... the part of the trip that I/we/they suspect they will like the best - - three nights London/Kent and three nights Germany/Rhine valley will remain the heart/backbone of the itinerary. But they saw the wisdom of not making a trip across the Atlantic, and coming home uninformed on the question of... "would they like France if they gave it a chance?"
Yes - - this is a case of my asserting that I will "get the last word in" here... but how 'bout we call this food fight over...
okay?
<<It's as if you haven't read anything I have written about what I <U><I>know</U></I> about their probable likes and dislikes (and our own!) >>
This thread more or less "played out" between Feb 6 and Feb 9 - - then... roughly a week and a half later, I thought others might find some interest in knowing what decisions were made. How did I know that they might like expanding the itinerary to include Paris, rather than traveling "just" to England and Germany? I <U><I>asked</U></I> them. I laid out two different scenarios for them, and I talked to them, as I summarized above - - and THEY decided... "let's add one more night so that we can include Paris and not feel quite so rushed"... the part of the trip that I/we/they suspect they will like the best - - three nights London/Kent and three nights Germany/Rhine valley will remain the heart/backbone of the itinerary. But they saw the wisdom of not making a trip across the Atlantic, and coming home uninformed on the question of... "would they like France if they gave it a chance?"
Yes - - this is a case of my asserting that I will "get the last word in" here... but how 'bout we call this food fight over...
okay?
Feb 27th, 2009, 10:23 AM
#90
Coming to this a bit late (been traveling 
) so apologies if I've overlooked similar points made above.
I would start from the assumption that this is their first but not last trip to Europe, so I would focus on making it as easy as possible for all concerned.
For that reason, I'd work to avoid a couple of potential issues with 8 days - language and jetlag.
Regarding language, why not consider the UK as your main destination? You mentioned that you don't know Britain well enough to be a tour guide, but I'd see that as an opportunity to expand your own knowledge base, not as a drawback. The UK is plenty - plenty - big enough to provide resources to soak up a week, and - sorry, British pals - right now the exchange rate makes the UK much more affordable for Americans that it has been of late.
As for jetlag, what I'd suggest would be to see if you could get on a morning flight to London from the east coast or Chicago, which gets you to Heathrow at dinnertime. In any number of trips, we've found that sleeping in a bed rather than on an airplane knocks several days off the jetlag calendar, which could be important for an intensive week or so in Europe.
Do London for a couple of days (where even if jetlag is present the city offers enough late-evening activities to keep you occupied if your own clock is still off) then move north. I'd suggest flying from London City airport to Edinburgh (or take the train) for a couple of days in the Scottish capital, then get a car and head out to the Highlands for the rest of your time. Play golf, or take power walks in the hills, see some dandy historic sites, castles, etc. Then it's a hop-skip back to Heathrow for connections to the flights home.
The weather will be British, but not especially different from what you'd encounter in France, Holland or Germany, but the range of experiences can be very extensive given the short time.
Just a thought.
) so apologies if I've overlooked similar points made above.I would start from the assumption that this is their first but not last trip to Europe, so I would focus on making it as easy as possible for all concerned.
For that reason, I'd work to avoid a couple of potential issues with 8 days - language and jetlag.
Regarding language, why not consider the UK as your main destination? You mentioned that you don't know Britain well enough to be a tour guide, but I'd see that as an opportunity to expand your own knowledge base, not as a drawback. The UK is plenty - plenty - big enough to provide resources to soak up a week, and - sorry, British pals - right now the exchange rate makes the UK much more affordable for Americans that it has been of late.
As for jetlag, what I'd suggest would be to see if you could get on a morning flight to London from the east coast or Chicago, which gets you to Heathrow at dinnertime. In any number of trips, we've found that sleeping in a bed rather than on an airplane knocks several days off the jetlag calendar, which could be important for an intensive week or so in Europe.
Do London for a couple of days (where even if jetlag is present the city offers enough late-evening activities to keep you occupied if your own clock is still off) then move north. I'd suggest flying from London City airport to Edinburgh (or take the train) for a couple of days in the Scottish capital, then get a car and head out to the Highlands for the rest of your time. Play golf, or take power walks in the hills, see some dandy historic sites, castles, etc. Then it's a hop-skip back to Heathrow for connections to the flights home.
The weather will be British, but not especially different from what you'd encounter in France, Holland or Germany, but the range of experiences can be very extensive given the short time.
Just a thought.
Feb 27th, 2009, 10:32 AM
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Gardyloo, you are late to the food fight. Well, rex, after all this, seems to have them changing hotels way too often for my taste, but it is his trip and let's hope everyone involved is still speaking when they get on the plane to go home.
Feb 27th, 2009, 10:36 AM
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By the way, rex, can you recognize sarcasm? Did I ever say you called me stupid? I think you need to read what I write and absorb its intent as well as its language before responding.
However, I did view your post as a put down. Again, since you know everything, why ask the peasants? If we add up our days spent in Europe in our lifetimes (assuming we know), we could not reach your total. Ergo, you did not need to ask people who presumably know less than you do.
However, I did view your post as a put down. Again, since you know everything, why ask the peasants? If we add up our days spent in Europe in our lifetimes (assuming we know), we could not reach your total. Ergo, you did not need to ask people who presumably know less than you do.
Feb 27th, 2009, 11:10 AM
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Since you say up front, Gardyloo, that you are coming in late to this thread... and admit that you have (perhaps) overlooked (substantial) portions of the thread, I will take your comments in a slightly different context - - as if they were <U>generically</U> addressed to the <B><U>initial</U></B> posting. After all, I <U><I>did</U></I> already state that...
<< the landing and departing airports/dates >> are the one thing that IS set in stone (i.e., already purchased) - - we are flying into Heathrow, arriving at 11:15 am on a Friday in mid-May, and flying back from Paris (via Heathrow) at 10:55 am on a Saturday, the following week. And in the past 24 hrs, we have also nailed down the flight from London Gatwick to Cologne in the middle of the trip (on a Monday afternoon).
So, even though the flights are already purchased, I will address (my thinking on) the two main points which you raised: "jet lag" and language.
We did briefly consider the day flight to London; it leaves at 6:00 am, connects through O'Hare and arrives London at 10:30 pm. Instead, we have a VERY attractively priced fare at 8:30 pm, flying in business class, arriving LHR at 11:15 am (also connects through Chicago). I continue to believe that for someone like my brother (and me) - - who has to measure every day out of the office in cost pretty similar to the entire cost of the entire airfare (at least I don't have employees personally... he has six), a daytime flight is just not an attractive choice. We leave at 8:30 pm on a Thursday - - he will probably put in a (shortened) day of work on the departure day. Not possible with the 6 am departure - - and leaving at 6 am on Friday means effectively removing a (partial, admittedly) day from the trip, and still having to pay for a hotel room on Friday night. I think that noon arrivals - - with a CONCERTED effort to get sleep on the trans-atlantic flight - - and then "pushing through" until sundown on arrival day remains a very effective strategy for dealing with fatigue in the beginning of the trip. Yes, it can mean awakening at 4 am on "day 2". But I am glad that we got the flights we did... and with the AA fare structure that allows pairing of a $1300 outbound fare with a $369 fare for the return trip - - it was too good a deal to consider anything else.
As for language, there were a lot of different opinions in the beginning - - including my idea that Amsterdam is like "Europe light" when it comes to foreign language. I'm glad we are spending the first 72 hrs+ in the UK. But I think that "taking them to Europe" and never exposing them to countries where English is NOT the (first) language they see and hear everywhere they go... is missing way too much of what it means to go to Europe.
Still your post contains some useful ideas for others... so-called "veteran(s)" as I consider myself to be... planning (and "guiding") a first trip for a family member.
<< the landing and departing airports/dates >> are the one thing that IS set in stone (i.e., already purchased) - - we are flying into Heathrow, arriving at 11:15 am on a Friday in mid-May, and flying back from Paris (via Heathrow) at 10:55 am on a Saturday, the following week. And in the past 24 hrs, we have also nailed down the flight from London Gatwick to Cologne in the middle of the trip (on a Monday afternoon).
So, even though the flights are already purchased, I will address (my thinking on) the two main points which you raised: "jet lag" and language.
We did briefly consider the day flight to London; it leaves at 6:00 am, connects through O'Hare and arrives London at 10:30 pm. Instead, we have a VERY attractively priced fare at 8:30 pm, flying in business class, arriving LHR at 11:15 am (also connects through Chicago). I continue to believe that for someone like my brother (and me) - - who has to measure every day out of the office in cost pretty similar to the entire cost of the entire airfare (at least I don't have employees personally... he has six), a daytime flight is just not an attractive choice. We leave at 8:30 pm on a Thursday - - he will probably put in a (shortened) day of work on the departure day. Not possible with the 6 am departure - - and leaving at 6 am on Friday means effectively removing a (partial, admittedly) day from the trip, and still having to pay for a hotel room on Friday night. I think that noon arrivals - - with a CONCERTED effort to get sleep on the trans-atlantic flight - - and then "pushing through" until sundown on arrival day remains a very effective strategy for dealing with fatigue in the beginning of the trip. Yes, it can mean awakening at 4 am on "day 2". But I am glad that we got the flights we did... and with the AA fare structure that allows pairing of a $1300 outbound fare with a $369 fare for the return trip - - it was too good a deal to consider anything else.
As for language, there were a lot of different opinions in the beginning - - including my idea that Amsterdam is like "Europe light" when it comes to foreign language. I'm glad we are spending the first 72 hrs+ in the UK. But I think that "taking them to Europe" and never exposing them to countries where English is NOT the (first) language they see and hear everywhere they go... is missing way too much of what it means to go to Europe.
Still your post contains some useful ideas for others... so-called "veteran(s)" as I consider myself to be... planning (and "guiding") a first trip for a family member.
Feb 27th, 2009, 11:16 AM
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Oh... and one last thing... when I said...
<< proposing "just London and Paris" is simply preposterous.>>
...yes, that <U><I>was</U></I> a putdown.
There was not a hint of sarcasm when you said...
<< Go with the major sites in one or two cities and that is it. Believe me, they will be happy. >>
It was preposterously arrogant, or arrogantly preposterous... I'm not sure which.
<< proposing "just London and Paris" is simply preposterous.>>
...yes, that <U><I>was</U></I> a putdown.
There was not a hint of sarcasm when you said...
<< Go with the major sites in one or two cities and that is it. Believe me, they will be happy. >>
It was preposterously arrogant, or arrogantly preposterous... I'm not sure which.
Feb 27th, 2009, 11:20 AM
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No, in 8 days your itinerary requires that your inlaws spend far too much time running from country to country instead of seeing the sights. There will be a lot of grouchiness that results.
Enjoy yourselves doing Europe in 8 days.
Enjoy yourselves doing Europe in 8 days.
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