Europe lovers gave Asia a try instead this time around--thoughts on our experiences
Jan 23rd, 2007, 11:34 PM
#121
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50 Degree weather in January? Embellishing your story a bit aren't you! That doesn't even happen in April.
After rereading this, I believe since they are from the US, they are talking about 50F. Vietnamese always go by Celsius. So yes, 50F is certainly possible in N. VN in the winter.
After rereading this, I believe since they are from the US, they are talking about 50F. Vietnamese always go by Celsius. So yes, 50F is certainly possible in N. VN in the winter.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 11:58 PM
#123
tripgirl, I think that you and issy and I read a different post from the one others read.
jules, i very much enjoyed your perspective. I think this is one of those posts which might be better related in person, in a conversation.
I remember using DOS on an IBM PC. IBM sold DOS to MS, didn't they?, whence it became MS-DOS.
jules, i very much enjoyed your perspective. I think this is one of those posts which might be better related in person, in a conversation.
I remember using DOS on an IBM PC. IBM sold DOS to MS, didn't they?, whence it became MS-DOS.
Jan 24th, 2007, 03:01 AM
#124
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This post is really rubish.
The fact they compare EU to SE Asia and a developing country is bad enough, but the fact the poster has no concept of independent travel is really a laugh.
Their first mistake was a guided tour? This is the last thing to do for seeing this country, a complete waste of money, and also a terrible way to get intimate with the culture.
The the poster complains about filth, and children barefoot or barely clothed etc, and thats a sad western view, and is not a fair assumption. Has the Poster been to Latin America? Litter and not so tidy surroundings come with the territory.
Last, but not least, the comment about wine and a cafe was absurd, as there are many great venues to just that, in the major cities and seaside towns, the cuisine, cafes and trendy nightlife is fantastic, Saigon is the best.
I travel Milan, New York, London, Paris, Costa Rica, Tokyo, Hong Kong and Bangkok, and live in the midwest, Chicago downtown, and Vietnam is a gem, the country is a must see, but if you want a european predicitable setting, stay home...
The fact they compare EU to SE Asia and a developing country is bad enough, but the fact the poster has no concept of independent travel is really a laugh.
Their first mistake was a guided tour? This is the last thing to do for seeing this country, a complete waste of money, and also a terrible way to get intimate with the culture.
The the poster complains about filth, and children barefoot or barely clothed etc, and thats a sad western view, and is not a fair assumption. Has the Poster been to Latin America? Litter and not so tidy surroundings come with the territory.
Last, but not least, the comment about wine and a cafe was absurd, as there are many great venues to just that, in the major cities and seaside towns, the cuisine, cafes and trendy nightlife is fantastic, Saigon is the best.
I travel Milan, New York, London, Paris, Costa Rica, Tokyo, Hong Kong and Bangkok, and live in the midwest, Chicago downtown, and Vietnam is a gem, the country is a must see, but if you want a european predicitable setting, stay home...
Jan 24th, 2007, 04:20 AM
#126
I was thinking that myself. I was on a Halong Bay cruise once, and the travel agency thoughtfully distributed evaluation forms to be filled out on the bus back to Hanoi. I had a lovely, rustic time on the three days, but there was a group of French tourists who found everything terrible -- bus ride too long, boat not luxurious enough, meals not sophisticated enough. I was happy to think that they wouldn't be coming back.
Jan 24th, 2007, 05:09 AM
#127
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I think you all need a remedial reading lesson.
READ Julies post more thoroughly and you will see she thought the country was fascinating, gorgeous scenery and again, she did not regret the trip;
She's not a whiner like the French tourists seemed to be.
I'd say she just saw things that to her were sensitive as it is evident she has not experienced that before on her vacations. Is she saying that the conditions she saw should not be or were offensive to her. NO! She merely states what she experienced.
READ Julies post more thoroughly and you will see she thought the country was fascinating, gorgeous scenery and again, she did not regret the trip;
She's not a whiner like the French tourists seemed to be.
I'd say she just saw things that to her were sensitive as it is evident she has not experienced that before on her vacations. Is she saying that the conditions she saw should not be or were offensive to her. NO! She merely states what she experienced.
Jan 24th, 2007, 05:09 AM
#128
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Very well said tripgirl
solohobo - I didn't understand your rant until I read the all important part of your post:
"and live in the midwest, Chicago downtown, and Vietnam is a gem"
LOL
solohobo - I didn't understand your rant until I read the all important part of your post:
"and live in the midwest, Chicago downtown, and Vietnam is a gem"
LOL
Jan 24th, 2007, 05:10 AM
#129
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I say amen to tripgirl as well! All julies was doing was expressing her thoughts, especially since the she brought up topic on here several months ago. Her opinions are her opinions, regardless of whether some of you like them or not, and I think its ridiculous to judge and ridicule her because of them. I applaud her for going outside the "Europe box" and experiencing something new, and I found her post quite interesting.
Seeing these responses would make anyone hesitate to post anything even remotely negative on this board about somewhere they have been, and thats sad because I think what makes this board so great is the differences in opinions and what everyone can offer.
Just my .02.
Tracy
Seeing these responses would make anyone hesitate to post anything even remotely negative on this board about somewhere they have been, and thats sad because I think what makes this board so great is the differences in opinions and what everyone can offer.
Just my .02.
Tracy
Jan 24th, 2007, 05:14 AM
#130
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Yep, tripgirl got it right as well.
Bottom line is, as the saying goes, mean people suck. And there are a lot of mean, judgmental, self-righteous people with the inability to read and understand plain English. And they are "contributing" to this thread with a vengeance.
Bottom line is, as the saying goes, mean people suck. And there are a lot of mean, judgmental, self-righteous people with the inability to read and understand plain English. And they are "contributing" to this thread with a vengeance.
Jan 24th, 2007, 07:57 PM
#134
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Julie:
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on VN..after all, this forum is a place where we can share feelings, observations, likes and dislikes of all the places most of us travel to independently.
Julies, if your post was written in English class, I'd give you an "A" based on the aforementioned statement.
Stu T.
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on VN..after all, this forum is a place where we can share feelings, observations, likes and dislikes of all the places most of us travel to independently.
Julies, if your post was written in English class, I'd give you an "A" based on the aforementioned statement.
Stu T.
Jan 24th, 2007, 08:02 PM
#135
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I don't think it's the OP's "negative" observations that some people find offensive here--squalor is squalor. What seems to offend is a kind of broadside judgment about the region and its inhabitants based upon what appear to be thwarted and/or untutored expectations. To me this is understandable--both the lack of knowledge going in and the upsetting reaction coming out are common enough, I'm sure; the question now is "where to go from here?" The OP has decided, "not back to Vietnam," at least for now, and I don't see how anyone can have a problem with this.
But that basic travel question, "where to now?" is precisely what this forum is all about: WHERE to go? and HOW to go? They are questions asked by people seeking INFORMATION. They are based on, and attempts to illucidate, EXPERIENCES. These experiences are drawn from two CULTURES which can be extrapolated historically and socially by behavior patterns, beliefs, institutions, arts and all other products of human work and thought expressive of the two cultures in question, namely that of the host and that of the visitor. I don't see how we can get around the fact that this activity we call TRAVEL is precisely a historical, political, and philosophical one--though I prefer the term psychological to philosophical since philosophy has been dead for almost a hundred years now.
In light of this, what many people in this forum fancy calling their "comfort zone" is simply one way of facing off against the complexity inherent in the activity--in many cases by pretending that it doesn't exist. And that's ok--personally, I get UNcomfortable when I catch myself ignoring things. There's a word for it, in fact several, but I don't want anyone to accuse me of spitting poison.
What I like most about this thread is that a lot of people seem to be UNcomfortable with different aspects of it. And the original post seems to be uncomfortable, too. I think that's a good thing.
But that basic travel question, "where to now?" is precisely what this forum is all about: WHERE to go? and HOW to go? They are questions asked by people seeking INFORMATION. They are based on, and attempts to illucidate, EXPERIENCES. These experiences are drawn from two CULTURES which can be extrapolated historically and socially by behavior patterns, beliefs, institutions, arts and all other products of human work and thought expressive of the two cultures in question, namely that of the host and that of the visitor. I don't see how we can get around the fact that this activity we call TRAVEL is precisely a historical, political, and philosophical one--though I prefer the term psychological to philosophical since philosophy has been dead for almost a hundred years now.
In light of this, what many people in this forum fancy calling their "comfort zone" is simply one way of facing off against the complexity inherent in the activity--in many cases by pretending that it doesn't exist. And that's ok--personally, I get UNcomfortable when I catch myself ignoring things. There's a word for it, in fact several, but I don't want anyone to accuse me of spitting poison.
What I like most about this thread is that a lot of people seem to be UNcomfortable with different aspects of it. And the original post seems to be uncomfortable, too. I think that's a good thing.
Jan 24th, 2007, 08:36 PM
#136
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Surely the Midwest must have some places that are less than perfect? These are some of my favorite comments:
"It is a fascinating county with lots of gorgeous scenery"
"The country is extremely dirty, noisy, jam-packed with people, full of litter, and generally filthy".
"Thus, we chose to do more off the beaten path things than your typical tourist so that we could see how people really live in Vietnam. we decided that a private guided tour was the way to go".
"Plus, tourists can’t rent cars, so that limits one’s transportation
options".
Quite easy to rent a car/driver for the use while in Vietnam.
Travel is not about the journey, its about the adventure.
"It is a fascinating county with lots of gorgeous scenery"
"The country is extremely dirty, noisy, jam-packed with people, full of litter, and generally filthy".
"Thus, we chose to do more off the beaten path things than your typical tourist so that we could see how people really live in Vietnam. we decided that a private guided tour was the way to go".
"Plus, tourists can’t rent cars, so that limits one’s transportation
options".
Quite easy to rent a car/driver for the use while in Vietnam.
Travel is not about the journey, its about the adventure.
Jan 24th, 2007, 11:43 PM
#137
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I'll admit, I was pretty offended by the post. Maybe Julies didn't mean to make it sound so generalized, but she did. The line that caught me was <i>"I think everyone should, at some time, make a trip to see how the majority of the people in the world live so as to gain a perspective on how truly well-off and privileged we in the West are."</i>
The majority of the world's people don't live in Vietnam. If she had ventured off to Tokyo or Hong Kong, she would have seen a totally different kind of Asia. Is this the way "real" Asians live? Of course. Is what she saw in Vietnam the way "real" Asians live? Absolutely. Even in China, you can see both sides of poverty and over-the-top glitz. (Why....you can see that in America and Europe, too!) My first knee-jerk reaction was that she felt this is the way all/most Asians live, all over Asia, and the generalization was offensive.
And at the end she said, <i>"I’m now perusing the Europe board again and thinking of another trip there rather than another Asian destination for our next trip. "</i> ...because she wanted a relaxing time. A Japanese onsen is relaxing. A massage in Bali is relaxing. I do applaud Julies' effort to see how "real" Asians live, but she shouldn't slam it across the board based on one rural experience in a country that many know to have a lot of poverty. She should especially not say that the conditions in rural Vietnam are how the <i>majority of the people in the world live.</i>
BTW, I'm also addicted to Europe, but not because there's "less poverty" than in Asia. I just hope I'm not travelling with such a naive point of view.
The majority of the world's people don't live in Vietnam. If she had ventured off to Tokyo or Hong Kong, she would have seen a totally different kind of Asia. Is this the way "real" Asians live? Of course. Is what she saw in Vietnam the way "real" Asians live? Absolutely. Even in China, you can see both sides of poverty and over-the-top glitz. (Why....you can see that in America and Europe, too!) My first knee-jerk reaction was that she felt this is the way all/most Asians live, all over Asia, and the generalization was offensive.
And at the end she said, <i>"I’m now perusing the Europe board again and thinking of another trip there rather than another Asian destination for our next trip. "</i> ...because she wanted a relaxing time. A Japanese onsen is relaxing. A massage in Bali is relaxing. I do applaud Julies' effort to see how "real" Asians live, but she shouldn't slam it across the board based on one rural experience in a country that many know to have a lot of poverty. She should especially not say that the conditions in rural Vietnam are how the <i>majority of the people in the world live.</i>
BTW, I'm also addicted to Europe, but not because there's "less poverty" than in Asia. I just hope I'm not travelling with such a naive point of view.
Jan 25th, 2007, 12:15 AM
#138
I'm sure that there are some quite gritty places that can be visited in Europe. After all, "Borat" was filmed in Romania, an EU member state. Perhaps julies will rent a guide to take her around to some of those villages to get an authentic European experience off the beaten track.
When I was in elementary school in the U.S., two of the children came to class barefoot because they didn't have any shoes, and a lot of the kids lived in trailers (not mobile homes). Rural Mississippi would probably be quite an eye-opener for people from Manhattan or Beverly Hills.
When I was in elementary school in the U.S., two of the children came to class barefoot because they didn't have any shoes, and a lot of the kids lived in trailers (not mobile homes). Rural Mississippi would probably be quite an eye-opener for people from Manhattan or Beverly Hills.
Jan 25th, 2007, 07:17 AM
#139
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Gosh folks - These are HER THOUGHTS on her experience. She says that in her title. Because you don't agree with them doesn't change the fact that they are HERS.
It's a long way down from atop that high horse...
It's a long way down from atop that high horse...
Jan 25th, 2007, 07:33 AM
#140
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Robjames:
You hit it on the proverbial head! Good comments. Up above, I went so far as to praise and thank Julies...if we can't express our personal feelings on travel subjects, and engage in good conversation without such rancor, what's the use of a Fodor Forum.
Stu T.
You hit it on the proverbial head! Good comments. Up above, I went so far as to praise and thank Julies...if we can't express our personal feelings on travel subjects, and engage in good conversation without such rancor, what's the use of a Fodor Forum.
Stu T.
