Europe lovers gave Asia a try instead this time around--thoughts on our experiences
Jan 23rd, 2007, 12:32 PM
#104
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Well, Michael, I don't dispute it's some ratio that counts. All I'm questioning is when an extrapolation is valid. Is it valid, for example, to argue that the objectionable circumstances that the original poster saw in Vietnam are how "majority of the people in the world live"?
ira, before I offered my quote, I tried to Google and couldn't find anything. I thought that I'd write it anyway and use a bit of a poetic license. I still can't find a citation for it, so it's possible that I could have made the whole thing up. I did do more web searches, and I don't think that Buffet could have said this.
Here's an interview with Buffet:
http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pages/...enBuffett.html
Quote:
Q: How important are China and India to the US economy?
A: The odds for me to have been born in the US were 1 in 50. I won the ovarian lottery. If I had been born in Bangladesh, the chances are that I would not have had such great opportunity. As human beings, we should want China and India to succeed, although it will certainly create dislocation for many people in the US.
End quote
This is not entirely relevant, but since we're at it, when I did my search, there're a number of links on a poll asking for where the next Bill Gates is likely to come from:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16441828/
Quote:
Seattle produced technology great Bill Gates, but where will his successor come from? Not here, most Americans said in a recent survey.
Nearly half of Americans said that the next great technology leader will come from China or Japan, while just one in five believe he or she will hail from the United States. Thirteen percent think India will produce the next tech great.
End quote
Finally, in case anyway questions that Intel is investing in Vietnam, that's easily verifiable. It's mentioned on Intel's own website:
http://www.intel.com/jobs/vietnam/
ira, before I offered my quote, I tried to Google and couldn't find anything. I thought that I'd write it anyway and use a bit of a poetic license. I still can't find a citation for it, so it's possible that I could have made the whole thing up. I did do more web searches, and I don't think that Buffet could have said this.
Here's an interview with Buffet:
http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/pages/...enBuffett.html
Quote:
Q: How important are China and India to the US economy?
A: The odds for me to have been born in the US were 1 in 50. I won the ovarian lottery. If I had been born in Bangladesh, the chances are that I would not have had such great opportunity. As human beings, we should want China and India to succeed, although it will certainly create dislocation for many people in the US.
End quote
This is not entirely relevant, but since we're at it, when I did my search, there're a number of links on a poll asking for where the next Bill Gates is likely to come from:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16441828/
Quote:
Seattle produced technology great Bill Gates, but where will his successor come from? Not here, most Americans said in a recent survey.
Nearly half of Americans said that the next great technology leader will come from China or Japan, while just one in five believe he or she will hail from the United States. Thirteen percent think India will produce the next tech great.
End quote
Finally, in case anyway questions that Intel is investing in Vietnam, that's easily verifiable. It's mentioned on Intel's own website:
http://www.intel.com/jobs/vietnam/
Jan 23rd, 2007, 12:39 PM
#105
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http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/rm/2001/3792.htm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0803/p16s01-lire.html
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Colum...6/1536085.html
I couldn't find the link but I heard a story of a tourist couple who took a taxi which apparently stalled. The driver asked the husband to get out and push so they could restart.
When the man got behind the car, the taxi sped off with the wife inside. Not sure if they found her corpse or just came to the conclusion that she had fallen victim to these gangs.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0803/p16s01-lire.html
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Colum...6/1536085.html
I couldn't find the link but I heard a story of a tourist couple who took a taxi which apparently stalled. The driver asked the husband to get out and push so they could restart.
When the man got behind the car, the taxi sped off with the wife inside. Not sure if they found her corpse or just came to the conclusion that she had fallen victim to these gangs.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 12:52 PM
#106
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Go, julies !!! If you have the desire to post ANYTHING additional after reading some of the "constructive criticisms" over the past few days, it would be a miracle for the new year.
Cimbrone and dcd pretty much echoed my thoughts but i'd only like to add that, in my dictionary at least, "travel" and "history/philosophy/politics" (take your pick) are not synonymous.
Thanks, julies, for your post and your perspective.
Cimbrone and dcd pretty much echoed my thoughts but i'd only like to add that, in my dictionary at least, "travel" and "history/philosophy/politics" (take your pick) are not synonymous.
Thanks, julies, for your post and your perspective.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 12:53 PM
#107
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I glanced at your links, scrb.
Did I miss the bit on "tourists being abducted and having their organs harvested"? All three links talk about organ harvest, but I don't think that I saw mention of tourists. Of course I read it very quickly.
Of course, I've no doubt that that there're tourists whose organs are harvested in China.
But then, I also just read that that a couple who was on a date was murdered and their car hijacked. This happened in Knoxville, TN:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/01/19/co...ml?eref=rss_us
Did I miss the bit on "tourists being abducted and having their organs harvested"? All three links talk about organ harvest, but I don't think that I saw mention of tourists. Of course I read it very quickly.
Of course, I've no doubt that that there're tourists whose organs are harvested in China.
But then, I also just read that that a couple who was on a date was murdered and their car hijacked. This happened in Knoxville, TN:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/01/19/co...ml?eref=rss_us
Jan 23rd, 2007, 01:07 PM
#108
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There's a difference between a random crime (although crime rate is higher in the US than most European cities) and something which is "unofficially" sanctioned by the govt.
I'm not sure if AI or other human rights groups have documented the organ harvesting. It could be just accusations from dissidents.
The tourist story may be apocryphal. It's a sidelight and it would be an instance of random violence. I don't doubt that there is some semblance of the rule of law in China, although it's probably easily bought from what I've heard.
There is no question about this govt.'s past actions and the way it persecutes groups like the Falun Gong, or the way it persecutes certain other dissidents.
I'm not saying everyone should abide by a government's actions to decide on whether to visit the country. If that were the case, Europeans would boycott travel to the US for certain policies and actions.
But these inconvenient facts do have a bearing on looking at the country as a whole. Some people will give more weight to the politics than others.
I'm not sure if AI or other human rights groups have documented the organ harvesting. It could be just accusations from dissidents.
The tourist story may be apocryphal. It's a sidelight and it would be an instance of random violence. I don't doubt that there is some semblance of the rule of law in China, although it's probably easily bought from what I've heard.
There is no question about this govt.'s past actions and the way it persecutes groups like the Falun Gong, or the way it persecutes certain other dissidents.
I'm not saying everyone should abide by a government's actions to decide on whether to visit the country. If that were the case, Europeans would boycott travel to the US for certain policies and actions.
But these inconvenient facts do have a bearing on looking at the country as a whole. Some people will give more weight to the politics than others.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 02:30 PM
#109
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As someone with nephews and nieces from my or my wife's siblings (big family!) in France, Spain, U.K., India, Netherlands, Australia, South Africa, U.S., and Japan, I find this a very interesting thread although I did lose track of how we got from a Vietnam trip report to brain harvesting! Julies, You get the week's award of posting the most-responded-to thread.
Her post read pretty balanced to me despite the (brutally honest) comment on poverty in Vietnam. Reading the second line of her third para, I know she appreciates Vietnam, and that it is not Japan, South Korea, Thailand, India, China, or scores of other countries with modern enough, or rapidly becoming modern enough, infrastructure.
My two cents worth: okay two, one cents worth? Don't equate money with happiness, and borrowing the words of Henry Adams (the best I can remember): The indian summer of life should be a little sunny and a little sad, like the season, and infinite in wealth and depth of tone.
So, Julies, Thanks for being honest but try another Asian country if and when you are ready, and report back!
Her post read pretty balanced to me despite the (brutally honest) comment on poverty in Vietnam. Reading the second line of her third para, I know she appreciates Vietnam, and that it is not Japan, South Korea, Thailand, India, China, or scores of other countries with modern enough, or rapidly becoming modern enough, infrastructure.
My two cents worth: okay two, one cents worth? Don't equate money with happiness, and borrowing the words of Henry Adams (the best I can remember): The indian summer of life should be a little sunny and a little sad, like the season, and infinite in wealth and depth of tone.
So, Julies, Thanks for being honest but try another Asian country if and when you are ready, and report back!
Jan 23rd, 2007, 02:41 PM
#110
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Hi 111 (May I call you just 111?),
>I thought that I'd write it anyway and use a bit of a poetic license.<
Your license has been suspended.
You shall write 1000 times, in longhand with a no.2 pencil on lined paper, "I shall not confuse fact with fantasy." to get it back.
>I thought that I'd write it anyway and use a bit of a poetic license.<
Your license has been suspended.
You shall write 1000 times, in longhand with a no.2 pencil on lined paper, "I shall not confuse fact with fantasy." to get it back.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 02:44 PM
#111
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PS,
>Seattle produced technology great Bill Gates, but where will his successor come from?......<
Would a poll in 1970 have predicted that Bill Gates (or anyone from Seattle) would have been so successful?
One's mind still reels when one considers that MS DOS was the only software that IBM leased instead of buying it.
>Seattle produced technology great Bill Gates, but where will his successor come from?......<
Would a poll in 1970 have predicted that Bill Gates (or anyone from Seattle) would have been so successful?
One's mind still reels when one considers that MS DOS was the only software that IBM leased instead of buying it.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 02:46 PM
#113
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That's a bit passe, ira. Better to set up a macro to do this. In emacs, I can repeat 1000 times with Esc-x 1000.
I do think that I've read this somewhere -- most likely in NYT. But I admit that it's the sort of thing that, if true, should turn up readily via a Google search. As careful as I try to be when I write, sometimes I just can't possibly check everything -- and I did phrase the comment as a question rather than state it as a fact.
In emacs, I can repeat 1000 times with Esc-x 1000. I do think that I've read this somewhere -- most likely in NYT. But I admit that it's the sort of thing that, if true, should turn up readily via a Google search. As careful as I try to be when I write, sometimes I just can't possibly check everything -- and I did phrase the comment as a question rather than state it as a fact.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 04:32 PM
#114
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julies,
Thank you for your report.
I can't understand how you cannot like Asia from one trip to one small country.
I can see you not liking Vietnam but not all of Asia. It would be like saying since I didn't like Romania(which I didn't)I don't like Europe(which I love )
Seems like a pretty narrow and petty opinion you are spouting to try and judge the worlds largest continent when you've only visited less than 1/2% of it.
Just my view of your observation.
Thank you for your report.
I can't understand how you cannot like Asia from one trip to one small country.
I can see you not liking Vietnam but not all of Asia. It would be like saying since I didn't like Romania(which I didn't)I don't like Europe(which I love )
Seems like a pretty narrow and petty opinion you are spouting to try and judge the worlds largest continent when you've only visited less than 1/2% of it.
Just my view of your observation.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 07:04 PM
#116
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julies
I appreciated your candour, but wonder if perhaps you have made the mistake of comparing not just two different countries, but two different styles of travel. In Viet Nam, you made a point of visiting places that weren't on the tourist circuit (which might explain your failure to find charming things: one can't have it both ways). Whereas on your jaunts to Europe, it seems you were seeking a different kind of experience, one in which you deliberately put on the rose-coloured glasses so as to escape from the world's difficulties. Yet I'm sure that you could have done the reverse, if only in theory: spent time in a Hong Kong billionaire's penthouse, say, whilst having a guide take you around some of the rougher banlieues of Paris. In other words, visiting Asia can be about escape, and visiting Europe, about seeing life's harsher realities: a given style of travel is not exclusive to a given destination, still less a given continent.
The irony is not lost on me that from amongst the habitual posters to an Internet messageboard, there can be found so many willing to chastise and preach against the sins of escapism....
And speaking of irony not being lost: Fishee, you are of course free to have your opinions about conquest and economic exploitation, even though I'm not sure why you thought them relevant to express here. I must, however, object to your insinuation that Europeans are uniquely guilty in this regard. I leave you with a quote by that notable Asian, Sun Tsu:
"The wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy."
I appreciated your candour, but wonder if perhaps you have made the mistake of comparing not just two different countries, but two different styles of travel. In Viet Nam, you made a point of visiting places that weren't on the tourist circuit (which might explain your failure to find charming things: one can't have it both ways). Whereas on your jaunts to Europe, it seems you were seeking a different kind of experience, one in which you deliberately put on the rose-coloured glasses so as to escape from the world's difficulties. Yet I'm sure that you could have done the reverse, if only in theory: spent time in a Hong Kong billionaire's penthouse, say, whilst having a guide take you around some of the rougher banlieues of Paris. In other words, visiting Asia can be about escape, and visiting Europe, about seeing life's harsher realities: a given style of travel is not exclusive to a given destination, still less a given continent.
The irony is not lost on me that from amongst the habitual posters to an Internet messageboard, there can be found so many willing to chastise and preach against the sins of escapism....
And speaking of irony not being lost: Fishee, you are of course free to have your opinions about conquest and economic exploitation, even though I'm not sure why you thought them relevant to express here. I must, however, object to your insinuation that Europeans are uniquely guilty in this regard. I leave you with a quote by that notable Asian, Sun Tsu:
"The wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy."
Jan 23rd, 2007, 07:14 PM
#117
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Geez...
Will you people re-read julies post! For heavens sake , she DID NOT SAY she dislikes all of Asia. She does say she DID NOT regret the trip at all and all she merely said is that she wants to return to Europe for her next trip. None of us know where she might go to after another trip to Europe.
Will you people re-read julies post! For heavens sake , she DID NOT SAY she dislikes all of Asia. She does say she DID NOT regret the trip at all and all she merely said is that she wants to return to Europe for her next trip. None of us know where she might go to after another trip to Europe.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 08:27 PM
#119
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50 Degree weather in January? Embellishing your story a bit aren't you! That doesn't even happen in April.
"We saw a lot of very interesting things but nothing we would refer to as charming".
Then you quite obviously didn't experience the real Vietnam.
"We saw a lot of very interesting things but nothing we would refer to as charming".
Then you quite obviously didn't experience the real Vietnam.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 09:12 PM
#120
After this travel it sounds like you are ready for vacation.
Thanks much for posting the impressions; you took a "close to the ground" approach in your travels which makes for an interesting read about something many of us are unlikely to experience.
I suppose one could say that your philosophizing regarding counting one's blessings could invite the kind of snide comments you got, but I felt it made sense in the context.
Thanks much for posting the impressions; you took a "close to the ground" approach in your travels which makes for an interesting read about something many of us are unlikely to experience.
I suppose one could say that your philosophizing regarding counting one's blessings could invite the kind of snide comments you got, but I felt it made sense in the context.
