Europe lovers gave Asia a try instead this time around--thoughts on our experiences
Jan 22nd, 2007, 04:21 PM
#83
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,514
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"They left to give their children better lives, they struggled, opened their own businesses here, worked hard and are now enjoying their wealth.
They give money and time to charities, belong to Christian charity groups and are happy, healthy and do not want to return to their birth country even to visit."
You've described my grandparents perfectly! Only they came from Germany.
People like/dislike places for their own personal reasons. My husband, who loves China, Japan, and Thailand, hates Naples, Italy. He calls it a "third world country." I've tried to tell him that Naples is neither a third world nor a country, but he refuses to listen. Go figure.
They give money and time to charities, belong to Christian charity groups and are happy, healthy and do not want to return to their birth country even to visit."
You've described my grandparents perfectly! Only they came from Germany.
People like/dislike places for their own personal reasons. My husband, who loves China, Japan, and Thailand, hates Naples, Italy. He calls it a "third world country." I've tried to tell him that Naples is neither a third world nor a country, but he refuses to listen. Go figure.
Jan 22nd, 2007, 04:22 PM
#84
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 22,993
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
111op,
Your comments are only an invitation for others to mention their experiences. I already mentioned China, which in many respects sounds worse than what I saw in 1979. The slums that I saw a few years later going around Jakarta probably have not improved, and I would not be surprised if the housing on the garbage dump spilling into the river (local drinking water, playground and bathroom) in Jojakarta has expanded. I'll let others add their experiences in South America, Africa and other parts of Asia to fill in the picture.
Your comments are only an invitation for others to mention their experiences. I already mentioned China, which in many respects sounds worse than what I saw in 1979. The slums that I saw a few years later going around Jakarta probably have not improved, and I would not be surprised if the housing on the garbage dump spilling into the river (local drinking water, playground and bathroom) in Jojakarta has expanded. I'll let others add their experiences in South America, Africa and other parts of Asia to fill in the picture.
Jan 22nd, 2007, 04:40 PM
#85
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,862
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I can't say that I'm a China expert, but I think that the problem with that country -- and probably with many others -- is that there's a huge chasm between the rich and the poor. I was really impressed by what I saw when I visited Beijing and Shanghai last year. Of course I also fell prey to a scam that probably wouldn't have occurred anywhere else, but still, this didn't prevent me from seeing that the progress in those cities is undeniable.
I do appreciate these sorts of comparative and constructive viewpoints. China, Vietnam, Asia -- these are big geographical regions. It's good to know that they are not all interchangeable -- and even regions within the same country can be very different.
Anyway even in the US, I'm sure that there's a huge disparity between the rich and the poor. I can't claim to be an expert on inner city slums, but I'm pretty sure that there're many things that one would find objectionable. Would one then extrapolate one's observations to the entire US?
Speaking of Europe and cafes and western amenities, take a country like Hong Kong. You can have all the high-end retail you want there. Joel Robuchon has a restaurant there, and I've read that Pierre Gagnaire will be opening a restaurant there. Yet Hong Kong is still in Asia.
As I said, I do hope that the original poster will visit other parts of Asia that are perhaps more to her liking.
I do appreciate these sorts of comparative and constructive viewpoints. China, Vietnam, Asia -- these are big geographical regions. It's good to know that they are not all interchangeable -- and even regions within the same country can be very different.
Anyway even in the US, I'm sure that there's a huge disparity between the rich and the poor. I can't claim to be an expert on inner city slums, but I'm pretty sure that there're many things that one would find objectionable. Would one then extrapolate one's observations to the entire US?
Speaking of Europe and cafes and western amenities, take a country like Hong Kong. You can have all the high-end retail you want there. Joel Robuchon has a restaurant there, and I've read that Pierre Gagnaire will be opening a restaurant there. Yet Hong Kong is still in Asia.
As I said, I do hope that the original poster will visit other parts of Asia that are perhaps more to her liking.
Jan 22nd, 2007, 04:44 PM
#86
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 12,188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not saying these statistics can be trusted, but I found it interesting to look at stats like infant mortality, life expectancy, literacy, per capita income, and so on, at the CIA World Factbook site:
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/vm.html
It's relatively easy to compare countries. By those measures, Romania is better off than Vietnam which is better off than Cambodia and Cambodia is better off than India. I know it's a crude measure subject to regional variation. It is surprising to see that Mexico is arguably better off by most measures, including per capita income, than Romania.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/vm.html
It's relatively easy to compare countries. By those measures, Romania is better off than Vietnam which is better off than Cambodia and Cambodia is better off than India. I know it's a crude measure subject to regional variation. It is surprising to see that Mexico is arguably better off by most measures, including per capita income, than Romania.
Jan 22nd, 2007, 04:45 PM
#87
Julies, thank you for a thoughtful post. It's obvious that most of us appreciate your time and trouble to share your thoughts. I found them very interesting and non-provocative. This is, after all, a travel forum where impressions of other places is encouraged.
I don't think many of us, myself included, would bother posting here if we thought our words would be twisted and warped by others who apparently have this self-righteous need to educate all of us about history, culture, perspective, life, etc, etc. Well, as Steve Martin once said: EXCUUUUUUSE MEEEE!!!!.
Ignore them. These people should be spending their time in the philosophy boards, history boards, save the world boards, and the aren't-we-so-darn-smart boards where argument is the primary purpose, all under the guise of educating their fellow man/woman who is too ignorant and stupid to understand the world and its people as they do. But they won't because their own self-importance won't let them.
I don't think many of us, myself included, would bother posting here if we thought our words would be twisted and warped by others who apparently have this self-righteous need to educate all of us about history, culture, perspective, life, etc, etc. Well, as Steve Martin once said: EXCUUUUUUSE MEEEE!!!!.
Ignore them. These people should be spending their time in the philosophy boards, history boards, save the world boards, and the aren't-we-so-darn-smart boards where argument is the primary purpose, all under the guise of educating their fellow man/woman who is too ignorant and stupid to understand the world and its people as they do. But they won't because their own self-importance won't let them.
Jan 22nd, 2007, 06:38 PM
#88
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's funny! Even more so since Steve Martin was a philosophy major at U.C.L.A. I guess it takes all kinds: those who twist, those who warp, self-righteously needy perspective pushers like--Oh . . . damn! Maybe it's just a language thing (not to be confused with a philosophy thing)--we, as a species, just don't seem to get very far away from self-referencing accusations.
Cheers!
Cheers!
Jan 22nd, 2007, 07:11 PM
#89
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow Julies I am so impressed at the WAY you saw Vietnam - the homestays, the trekking, the bicycling. That was really gutsy for a first trip to a culture that is so different than your own. No wonder you feel like a relaxing "cafe and wine" vacation for your next trip! I'd be worn out if I'd done all that here at home. The world needs more travelers like you.
And thank you for your post. It was very thoughtful of you to update us all and I appreciate it. If you ever feel like giving us more details, I would look forward to them.
All the best and thanks again.
And thank you for your post. It was very thoughtful of you to update us all and I appreciate it. If you ever feel like giving us more details, I would look forward to them.
All the best and thanks again.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 04:18 AM
#94
Funny to read so many contradictory views. I have now lived more than half of my life in Paris, and I am sitting here in my office dreaming of returning to Vietnam (3 trips), Cambodia (3 trips), Laos (2 trips), Thailand (11 trips), Indonesia (3 trips), etc. Since I went to Singapore 2 weeks ago just because it was cheap and easy for me to get to, I am not dreaming about Singapore since I have been there 18 times. Apparently what repulses some of you about Asia is what attracts me.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 08:07 AM
#96
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 22,993
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
111op.
<i>Anyway even in the US, I'm sure that there's a huge disparity between the rich and the poor. I can't claim to be an expert on inner city slums, but I'm pretty sure that there're many things that one would find objectionable. Would one then extrapolate one's observations to the entire US?</i>
It's the ratio that counts
<i>Anyway even in the US, I'm sure that there's a huge disparity between the rich and the poor. I can't claim to be an expert on inner city slums, but I'm pretty sure that there're many things that one would find objectionable. Would one then extrapolate one's observations to the entire US?</i>
It's the ratio that counts
Jan 23rd, 2007, 08:26 AM
#97
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fishee--and don't forget social/cultural differences that also contribute to some nations/peoples having higher standards of living than others. Tribal social organization, fanatic religious strictures, cultures that severely limit individual opportunity, oppression of women, etc.--all make modernization in just about every area (public health, education, infrastructure development, scientific research, etc.) more difficult.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 08:52 AM
#98
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, yes . . . but you are arguing that freedom and modernization are necessary ingredients for something good to happen. That's like taking a group of tribally organized people, importing YOUR sensibility--also tribal, but in a completely different way--and expecting them to "work it out" along the development of your model. Fairy dust! As Spike Lee would have Malcolm-what's-his-name say: "and I say it again, you've been had. You've been took. You've been hoodwinked, bamboozled, led astray, run amok."
Jan 23rd, 2007, 10:36 AM
#99
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,844
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I went to Hong Kong last Jan. Thought about Thailand but the coup makes you wonder.
One thing to consider is political stability. That is why HK is prosperous whereas Vietnam still is still struggling to emerge from the war.
That is also why Europe is part of the developed world. They had their wars and revolutions all finished over 60 years ago. And despite these wars, there are a lot of historical remnants, which separate it from the US.
China is suppose to be a "dynamic" and "vibrant" place because of explosive growth. But it really sounds like a cess pool, especially politically and environmentally. And even dangerous to a certain extent. You hear stories about tourists being abducted and having their organs harvested for instance.
But even apart from that, this is still the gang who perpetrated Tienamen Square. Not sure if the Maoist who did the Cultural Revolution are still around.
These people don't deserve tourist dollars.
One thing to consider is political stability. That is why HK is prosperous whereas Vietnam still is still struggling to emerge from the war.
That is also why Europe is part of the developed world. They had their wars and revolutions all finished over 60 years ago. And despite these wars, there are a lot of historical remnants, which separate it from the US.
China is suppose to be a "dynamic" and "vibrant" place because of explosive growth. But it really sounds like a cess pool, especially politically and environmentally. And even dangerous to a certain extent. You hear stories about tourists being abducted and having their organs harvested for instance.
But even apart from that, this is still the gang who perpetrated Tienamen Square. Not sure if the Maoist who did the Cultural Revolution are still around.
These people don't deserve tourist dollars.
Jan 23rd, 2007, 10:49 AM
#100
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>having their organs harvested for instance.
Don't forget they eat little children and would harvest your brain, if you'd ever dare to go there. I'm too scared to tell what they would do with it.
Don't forget they eat little children and would harvest your brain, if you'd ever dare to go there. I'm too scared to tell what they would do with it.
