Europe lovers gave Asia a try instead this time around--thoughts on our experiences
Jan 25th, 2007, 07:43 AM
#141
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This thread should get an award for having the most pompous, self-righteous criticism ever heaped on a trip report.
Of course julies generalized to an extent. For crying out loud, MOST Fodorites do exactly the same (including many of those who posted such high-handed remarks...). People go to Brussels for two days and pronounce it boring (parts of it are; parts of it aren't). They go to London for five days and say that "everyone" was wonderful (there is no place on earth where *everyone* is wonderful). They go to Paris for a week and say the food was great everywhere (it isn't) and that the French are so much more "civilized" than Americans. And so on and so on and so on...
As robjame notes, the trip report was merely her thoughts. Thanks, julies, for making the effort to post an interesting and "thought-full" trip report. You deserve to be first in line to hurl brickbats the next time one of your scathing critics gets off their high horses long enough to post a trip report of their own.
Of course julies generalized to an extent. For crying out loud, MOST Fodorites do exactly the same (including many of those who posted such high-handed remarks...). People go to Brussels for two days and pronounce it boring (parts of it are; parts of it aren't). They go to London for five days and say that "everyone" was wonderful (there is no place on earth where *everyone* is wonderful). They go to Paris for a week and say the food was great everywhere (it isn't) and that the French are so much more "civilized" than Americans. And so on and so on and so on...
As robjame notes, the trip report was merely her thoughts. Thanks, julies, for making the effort to post an interesting and "thought-full" trip report. You deserve to be first in line to hurl brickbats the next time one of your scathing critics gets off their high horses long enough to post a trip report of their own.
Jan 25th, 2007, 08:02 AM
#142
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There are about 6.5 billion people in the world--give or take a few hundred million. According to the World Bank, about 3 billion of these live on less than $2 a day, and over 1 billion under $1 a day (the WB's definition of extreme poverty). Almost all of these are in Asia, Africa, and Central/South America.
So if we consider all the lucky people who live on over $2 a day ($730 a year) as not in poverty then a majority don't live in the conditions julies describes. But my hunch is that many who are actually able to muster up $3 a day to live on might not be in such great circumstances either.
Of course there are a lot of people identified as living in "poverty" in the developed countries, too. But those are relative poverty measures within that country--compared to Bill Gates, I live in poverty.
For example, in the USA, those identified as living in poverty might be seen as wealthy in other countries. Over 45% of those in the USA living in poverty own their own home--with the average poor person's home having 3 bedrooms, 1-1/2 baths, and a 2-car garage.
It is encouraging to note that over the past few decades world-wide poverty levels (by a variety of measures) are slowly dropping. Though the advances are uneven, and some areas have gotten worse while the world as a whole is improving.
So if we consider all the lucky people who live on over $2 a day ($730 a year) as not in poverty then a majority don't live in the conditions julies describes. But my hunch is that many who are actually able to muster up $3 a day to live on might not be in such great circumstances either.
Of course there are a lot of people identified as living in "poverty" in the developed countries, too. But those are relative poverty measures within that country--compared to Bill Gates, I live in poverty.
For example, in the USA, those identified as living in poverty might be seen as wealthy in other countries. Over 45% of those in the USA living in poverty own their own home--with the average poor person's home having 3 bedrooms, 1-1/2 baths, and a 2-car garage.
It is encouraging to note that over the past few decades world-wide poverty levels (by a variety of measures) are slowly dropping. Though the advances are uneven, and some areas have gotten worse while the world as a whole is improving.
Jan 25th, 2007, 08:05 AM
#143
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You're absolutely correct, BTilke.
And should anyone want to read more on this subject, there are two more recent threads on the Asia board where Julies actually makes an appearance.
As I said before, I'd have been done with Fodor's days ago because of the petty arrogance being displayed here. Takes away a lot of the fun of being part of this forum.
And should anyone want to read more on this subject, there are two more recent threads on the Asia board where Julies actually makes an appearance.
As I said before, I'd have been done with Fodor's days ago because of the petty arrogance being displayed here. Takes away a lot of the fun of being part of this forum.
Jan 25th, 2007, 12:35 PM
#144
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While some threads are amusing because there is so much controversy,
personally I am in the Cimbrone camp...
I LOVE this forum when it has threads that are really useful. I suspect alot people come here for INFORMATION as their top priority.
Every once in a while I do get a giggle out of someone or enjoy some lighthearted kidding around, but I live in a town( DC) where there is enough "nastiness", I don't need to enjoy it here.
But please continue on whatever way you want, I usually don't participate in such threads anyway , but this one I felt drawn to since I have been to Asia myself and I also felt Julies deserved a little backing up
Julies, how's the planning going for your next European vacation?
personally I am in the Cimbrone camp...
I LOVE this forum when it has threads that are really useful. I suspect alot people come here for INFORMATION as their top priority.
Every once in a while I do get a giggle out of someone or enjoy some lighthearted kidding around, but I live in a town( DC) where there is enough "nastiness", I don't need to enjoy it here.
But please continue on whatever way you want, I usually don't participate in such threads anyway , but this one I felt drawn to since I have been to Asia myself and I also felt Julies deserved a little backing up
Julies, how's the planning going for your next European vacation?
Jan 25th, 2007, 01:18 PM
#145
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I like what certain conflict resolution experts counsel about the need to separate the people from the problems and/or the issues being discussed.
I don't see anywhere where julies blamed the victims of the poverty she saw for their unfortunate circumstances. In other words, that she was tough on the problem of poverty (as indeed we all should be) does not mean she was being tough on the Vietnamese people themselves.
I wish we could agree that this is the guideline to follow when commenting on reports. Readers ought to be able to comment on the comments made, and to have a reasonable latitude in what they can say. Forbidding readers of a report from making anything but undiluted praise for it is no better than forbidding the report writer from making anything but positive observations about the place visited.
But the latitude shouldn't extend to a license to make personal remarks or attacks, on either side.
Then again, I think I saw armour on sale at K-mart....(time to lighten things up.)
I don't see anywhere where julies blamed the victims of the poverty she saw for their unfortunate circumstances. In other words, that she was tough on the problem of poverty (as indeed we all should be) does not mean she was being tough on the Vietnamese people themselves.
I wish we could agree that this is the guideline to follow when commenting on reports. Readers ought to be able to comment on the comments made, and to have a reasonable latitude in what they can say. Forbidding readers of a report from making anything but undiluted praise for it is no better than forbidding the report writer from making anything but positive observations about the place visited.
But the latitude shouldn't extend to a license to make personal remarks or attacks, on either side.
Then again, I think I saw armour on sale at K-mart....(time to lighten things up.)
Jan 25th, 2007, 06:01 PM
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I find this thread on the Asia forum about the present thread in the Europe forum worth reading:
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34934144
Regarding BTilke's comments -- I don't find them apt at all. People who say that "everyone" is helpful or food is delicious "everywhere" are not generalizing. By implication they are saying that all the people whom they encountered on their trip were helpful. The "everyone" doesn't refer to all the denizens of a city or of a country.
Of course people exaggerate, generalize, have opinions -- and are of course entitled to have them. But I do think that the original poster has made some provocative -- and outrageous -- comments. I don't think that I'm the only one to think so.
It's good to read the discussion on the Asia forum. People raise some good points.
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34934144
Regarding BTilke's comments -- I don't find them apt at all. People who say that "everyone" is helpful or food is delicious "everywhere" are not generalizing. By implication they are saying that all the people whom they encountered on their trip were helpful. The "everyone" doesn't refer to all the denizens of a city or of a country.
Of course people exaggerate, generalize, have opinions -- and are of course entitled to have them. But I do think that the original poster has made some provocative -- and outrageous -- comments. I don't think that I'm the only one to think so.
It's good to read the discussion on the Asia forum. People raise some good points.
Jan 26th, 2007, 06:27 PM
#148
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Julie is, of course, entitled to expressing her thoughts about her experience, but everyone is also entitled to having a response -- it's what makes this board worthwhile. Discussion here can get contentious ahout whether to take a cab from the airport.
I find it quite heartening to see that people have strong positions when it comes to something as significant as global poverty. My work on an everyday basis is about strong disagreements and very direct challenges (in fact, I'm supposed to encourage it) but I can see how some people might be uncomfortable when exchanges get heated. But apathy and silence are a much bigger problem than vocal discussion, IMO. We're in big trouble when people shut up and say nothing when they hear something that they feel needs to be challenged.
I find it quite heartening to see that people have strong positions when it comes to something as significant as global poverty. My work on an everyday basis is about strong disagreements and very direct challenges (in fact, I'm supposed to encourage it) but I can see how some people might be uncomfortable when exchanges get heated. But apathy and silence are a much bigger problem than vocal discussion, IMO. We're in big trouble when people shut up and say nothing when they hear something that they feel needs to be challenged.
Jan 26th, 2007, 09:17 PM
#149
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My problem is that julies' report paints, to me, a most distorted picture of a beguiling country and people. In fact I just don't recognise the country she's talking about, nor I'm sure would any of the many people I know who've visited Vietnam in recent years. Many of these went there on our recommendation, and not one has failed to thank us and give Vietnam a glowing report.
"The country is extremely dirty, noisy, jam-packed with people, full of litter, and generally filthy."
This statement just screams "don't visit Vietnam!", and though I'm sure this wasn't the intent, its effect is to pander to the prejudices of the more one-eyed Europhiles here.
More seriously, it's unbalanced and deeply unfair to the Vietnamese people. We arrived in the country expecting it to be dirty, smelly and messy, and we were pleasantly surprised to find it (allowing for the exigencies of living in a poor country) none of these things. Of course one was occasionally reminded that sewerage is a luxury in poor countries - but never overwhelmingly reminded.
Dirty? Even the smallest and poorest of hole-in-the-wall shops in the back streets, with dirt floors and planks for shelves, is kept meticulously swept and tidy. In Ho Chi Minh City I remember how we woke every morning to practically spotless streets, due to the ministrations of an army of overnight sweepers. The Vietnamese are a proud, intelligent and meticulous people - they're not slobs.
Packed with people? Well, yes, there are a lot of people. Very agreeable, courteous, gracious, welcoming (and physically attractive) people. Much more so, I venture to suggest, than in most parts of Europe. They also have a great sense of humour and will laugh at the drop of a hat.
A very few of our memories of Vietnam:
* Walking in the cool dawn around Hanoi's beautiful Hoan Kiem Lake among hundreds of its people practicing tai chi, playing badminton etc., followed by an exploration of the teeming Ancient Quarter, a complex of 36 streets each devoted largely to a particular trade.
* Eating delicious local cuisine in the KOTO restaurant founded by an inspiring Australian, Jimmy Pham, to recruit and train street kids in the hospitality industry - across the road from the 1000-year-old Temple of Literature, Vietnam's oldest university.
* Drinking superb local coffee in a tiny shop in Hue as elegant schoolgirls dressed in spotless white silk ao dais cycle down a tamarind-shaded boulevarde.
* A superb degustation banquet in a fine old mansion once occupied by the last emperor's mistress as singers and an instrumental group perform classical Vietnamese music.
* Walking at night through the streets of the old seacoast trading town of Hoi An, with its remnants of Chinese and Japanese residents, and the cooking school in which we learned to prepare marinated whole fish grilled in banana leaves. Later, on being accosted by a pair of 8-year-old entrepreneurs, attempting to convince them that I was French and couldn't speak English. After conferring, they rendered their verdict. "Nah. Aussie". (How did they know?)
* On a more sombre note, inspecting the
Cu Chi Tunnels, the home of many of the tough little guerillas who saw off first the French and then the Americans; and the sad little museum memorialising the victims of the My Lai massacre. Visiting and helping out in a small way an orphanage in Hue.
And much, much more. The whole story? Of course not - but at least as representative as julies' accont, I think.
"The country is extremely dirty, noisy, jam-packed with people, full of litter, and generally filthy."
This statement just screams "don't visit Vietnam!", and though I'm sure this wasn't the intent, its effect is to pander to the prejudices of the more one-eyed Europhiles here.
More seriously, it's unbalanced and deeply unfair to the Vietnamese people. We arrived in the country expecting it to be dirty, smelly and messy, and we were pleasantly surprised to find it (allowing for the exigencies of living in a poor country) none of these things. Of course one was occasionally reminded that sewerage is a luxury in poor countries - but never overwhelmingly reminded.
Dirty? Even the smallest and poorest of hole-in-the-wall shops in the back streets, with dirt floors and planks for shelves, is kept meticulously swept and tidy. In Ho Chi Minh City I remember how we woke every morning to practically spotless streets, due to the ministrations of an army of overnight sweepers. The Vietnamese are a proud, intelligent and meticulous people - they're not slobs.
Packed with people? Well, yes, there are a lot of people. Very agreeable, courteous, gracious, welcoming (and physically attractive) people. Much more so, I venture to suggest, than in most parts of Europe. They also have a great sense of humour and will laugh at the drop of a hat.
A very few of our memories of Vietnam:
* Walking in the cool dawn around Hanoi's beautiful Hoan Kiem Lake among hundreds of its people practicing tai chi, playing badminton etc., followed by an exploration of the teeming Ancient Quarter, a complex of 36 streets each devoted largely to a particular trade.
* Eating delicious local cuisine in the KOTO restaurant founded by an inspiring Australian, Jimmy Pham, to recruit and train street kids in the hospitality industry - across the road from the 1000-year-old Temple of Literature, Vietnam's oldest university.
* Drinking superb local coffee in a tiny shop in Hue as elegant schoolgirls dressed in spotless white silk ao dais cycle down a tamarind-shaded boulevarde.
* A superb degustation banquet in a fine old mansion once occupied by the last emperor's mistress as singers and an instrumental group perform classical Vietnamese music.
* Walking at night through the streets of the old seacoast trading town of Hoi An, with its remnants of Chinese and Japanese residents, and the cooking school in which we learned to prepare marinated whole fish grilled in banana leaves. Later, on being accosted by a pair of 8-year-old entrepreneurs, attempting to convince them that I was French and couldn't speak English. After conferring, they rendered their verdict. "Nah. Aussie". (How did they know?)
* On a more sombre note, inspecting the
Cu Chi Tunnels, the home of many of the tough little guerillas who saw off first the French and then the Americans; and the sad little museum memorialising the victims of the My Lai massacre. Visiting and helping out in a small way an orphanage in Hue.
And much, much more. The whole story? Of course not - but at least as representative as julies' accont, I think.
Jan 26th, 2007, 09:48 PM
#150
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NeilOz does a good job of demonstrating how one can take issue with julie's original post and not make it a personal attack. Perhaps if some of the people using words like "horrible" and "ignorant" to describe julies had taken this approach initially, things would not have become so contentious.
Jan 26th, 2007, 09:51 PM
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Oh sorry, not "horrible." Margin said he was "horrified." Called her a "snob" and found her report "sickening." Like I said, he (and others) can take a lesson from Neil in how to communicate.
Jan 26th, 2007, 10:35 PM
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And in reference to an earlier post, I think they might have been talking about Bill Gates' assertion that the most intelligent people were from China, then India. Or he ranked India, and then China. But I don't think he said he wished he'd been in Asia. Since this way, he gets to hire highly skilled workers and pay them much less than U.S. trained workers!
Jan 27th, 2007, 12:55 AM
#153
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Thanks julies for your thoughts on choosing Vietnam for your vacation. I think your reactons were direct and came across as honest and unabashed, I appreciated reading them.
And sparked a good button pushing debate at the same time!
And thank you for that great post, Neil Oz, which reminded me of the reasons I love to travel. I still have strong memories of the My Lai tragedy. and wonder how your experience in the orphanage in Hue came about! You gave this thread some fantastic images of the people and the place. Obviously you were able to delve a little deeper into the Vietnamese culture, and have a perspective on the war years. A fascinating journey that leaves me curious about traveling there.
And sparked a good button pushing debate at the same time!
And thank you for that great post, Neil Oz, which reminded me of the reasons I love to travel. I still have strong memories of the My Lai tragedy. and wonder how your experience in the orphanage in Hue came about! You gave this thread some fantastic images of the people and the place. Obviously you were able to delve a little deeper into the Vietnamese culture, and have a perspective on the war years. A fascinating journey that leaves me curious about traveling there.
Jan 27th, 2007, 02:35 AM
#154
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Well, thanks for the kind words, bellastarr (and Cimbrone). OK, now it's confession time - we took a small-group tour, because we weren't experienced Asia travellers and we weren't sure what to expect. As it turned out we could have travelled independently, but we're glad we didn't, because we saw and learned much more in 20 days than we could have managed on our lonesome. I particularly appreciated the long chats with our Vietnamese guide, picking up snippets of information and learning a few words of the language.
And there's something to be said for letting someone else handle the logistics, at the same time being allowed adequate unscheduled time to explore by ourselves. But I guess my credibility in this forum is pretty much shot now.
The visit to the My Lai site was part of the itinerary. Showing my age, but yes, I remember what the Vietnamese call the "American War" very well and had a few friends who were conscripts and did tours of duty there. Most Vietnamese though are too young to remember the war, and we saw no signs of bitterness.
The orphanage visit was arranged by our Saigon-resident Australian tour leader; every time she passed through Hue she was able to deliver a fresh batch of donors (like us) to the front door. Unfortunately there's no shortage of orphanages in Vietnam.
And there's something to be said for letting someone else handle the logistics, at the same time being allowed adequate unscheduled time to explore by ourselves. But I guess my credibility in this forum is pretty much shot now.
The visit to the My Lai site was part of the itinerary. Showing my age, but yes, I remember what the Vietnamese call the "American War" very well and had a few friends who were conscripts and did tours of duty there. Most Vietnamese though are too young to remember the war, and we saw no signs of bitterness.
The orphanage visit was arranged by our Saigon-resident Australian tour leader; every time she passed through Hue she was able to deliver a fresh batch of donors (like us) to the front door. Unfortunately there's no shortage of orphanages in Vietnam.
Jan 27th, 2007, 05:10 AM
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Hi Neil- thanks for the explanation- on the contrary- I'm a very independant-minded traveler myself, but see no shae in small-group tours when an occasion seems to call for it. i must be not far from your age too, because I have such strong memories of the "American War" too, and actually was so amazed to see the OP's thoughts about the destination country of Viet Nam presented without any mention at all of that part of not-so-distant history!
It's a blessing to hear that you found little or no signs of bitterness, pretty surprising really.
It's a blessing to hear that you found little or no signs of bitterness, pretty surprising really.
Jan 27th, 2007, 08:36 AM
#157
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When I irst went toVietNam in 1966 I was stationed in DaNang. Even under those less-than-optimal conditions I remember going out to the beach and thinking how wonderful it was and wouldn't it be wonderful to return some day and be at some nice resort or hotel and enjoy them under those circumstances..and now one can.
I was fortunate enough to go to some smaller, out-of-the-way places such as Quang Nai while there and again thought it would be a wonderful vacation spot.
DaNang itself in those days still had the remnants of the previous French colonial buildings as did Saigon. The cities were, of course, absolutely filled with humanity and I had plenty of flashbacks when I was fortunate enough to visit Port Au Prince in Haiti a few years later. Yes, lots of people living as best they could and in conditions unimaginable but they were proud and decent folks as they were tossed herer and there by a war bneing fought for both their minds and souls.
One of my most vivid memories is of going into the Roman Catholic cathedral in "downtown" DaNang and seeing, over the altar, a portrait of the Virgin Mary...but as a VietNamese woman dressed in an Ao Dai. This was certainly a reminder of how different people can view the same things/concepts in different ways.
I maintain what I said to the OP earlier on in both this post and the subsequent one: your experiences are your own and they deserve respect and consideration. There will always be someone who disagrees but that's life.
I was fortunate enough to go to some smaller, out-of-the-way places such as Quang Nai while there and again thought it would be a wonderful vacation spot.
DaNang itself in those days still had the remnants of the previous French colonial buildings as did Saigon. The cities were, of course, absolutely filled with humanity and I had plenty of flashbacks when I was fortunate enough to visit Port Au Prince in Haiti a few years later. Yes, lots of people living as best they could and in conditions unimaginable but they were proud and decent folks as they were tossed herer and there by a war bneing fought for both their minds and souls.
One of my most vivid memories is of going into the Roman Catholic cathedral in "downtown" DaNang and seeing, over the altar, a portrait of the Virgin Mary...but as a VietNamese woman dressed in an Ao Dai. This was certainly a reminder of how different people can view the same things/concepts in different ways.
I maintain what I said to the OP earlier on in both this post and the subsequent one: your experiences are your own and they deserve respect and consideration. There will always be someone who disagrees but that's life.
Jan 27th, 2007, 08:57 AM
#158
I know that we are now beating a dead horse on this subject, but I would like to go back to the only point that sort of ticked me off in julies original post:
The country is extremely dirty, noisy, jam-packed with people, full of litter, and generally filthy. We saw a lot of very interesting things but nothing we would refer to as charming.
As a Vietnam fan, I absolutely cannot fathom the concept of seeing nothing "charming" during a trip there, or else this was the worst private guided tour ever. The town of Hoi An, near Da Nang, is considered by most to be one of the most charming places on the planet. The old quarter of Hanoi is also very charming, and even in Saigon, I have been charmed many times by lots of places -- the Jade Emperor Temple, the atmosphere of the GPO and its fabulous writing desks where I always write at least half a dozen letters because the place inspires me so much, the terraced rice fields and snowcapped mountains around Sa Pa, or the wonders of the Mekong delta, just to name a few places.
Perhaps the place that haunts me the most in Saigon is a café on the corner or Pham Ngu Lao and De Tham, where American Vietnam vets living in Vietnam tend to hang out. You see them show up every day and greet each other and talk about old times. Some of them are amputees, but they remember when they were in Saigon when they were 20 years old and they felt like the masters of the world, and $5 could buy anything they wanted and more. Now their military pensions still go a long way in Saigon, and they can buy the company of young Vietnamese women who will convince them that they are still young and handsome, just like in the old days.
I am very sorry that julies missed all this or did not appreciate it.
The country is extremely dirty, noisy, jam-packed with people, full of litter, and generally filthy. We saw a lot of very interesting things but nothing we would refer to as charming.
As a Vietnam fan, I absolutely cannot fathom the concept of seeing nothing "charming" during a trip there, or else this was the worst private guided tour ever. The town of Hoi An, near Da Nang, is considered by most to be one of the most charming places on the planet. The old quarter of Hanoi is also very charming, and even in Saigon, I have been charmed many times by lots of places -- the Jade Emperor Temple, the atmosphere of the GPO and its fabulous writing desks where I always write at least half a dozen letters because the place inspires me so much, the terraced rice fields and snowcapped mountains around Sa Pa, or the wonders of the Mekong delta, just to name a few places.
Perhaps the place that haunts me the most in Saigon is a café on the corner or Pham Ngu Lao and De Tham, where American Vietnam vets living in Vietnam tend to hang out. You see them show up every day and greet each other and talk about old times. Some of them are amputees, but they remember when they were in Saigon when they were 20 years old and they felt like the masters of the world, and $5 could buy anything they wanted and more. Now their military pensions still go a long way in Saigon, and they can buy the company of young Vietnamese women who will convince them that they are still young and handsome, just like in the old days.
I am very sorry that julies missed all this or did not appreciate it.
Jan 27th, 2007, 09:35 AM
#159
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For what it's worth, I know Julie to be someone who enjoyed the more rural (and rustic) portions of Romania. I did as well. Yet I have seen negative experiences posted regarding Romania, which I entirely understand, and note that despite the fact that she liked Romania, she didn't need feel the need to reply, trying to disprove that poster's own experiences.
People are going to go places for a variety of reasons and expectations and they're going to return having seen different things. Those things are going to affect them in different ways. Why not be honest about it? She certainly wasn't vague about her status as a first time visitor and I think people are smart enough here to make their own determination as to whether they find some of themselves in her findings.
There's a lot of context needed here - for instance, the availability of colonial architecture in the cities of Vietnam or the modern cities of Hong Kong or Tokyo are somewhat irrelevant to what the OP was looking for. Since a modern city was off the agenda (anyone here not know that HK or Tokyo existed and were modern?) and clearly stated as such, we should all be able to see that this is an evaluation of what she was looking for - a rural, non-tourist-tailored experience. And her findings was that conditions where she went were tough for her. Personally, I suspect that I'd like Vietnam quite a bit, but that doesn't change the fact that Julie had some difficulties experiencing the conditions. Come on - so might others, don't you think?
I agree that Asia vs Europe probably isn't an fair comparison after one trip, especially with a focused approach that might not give the most diverse view of things. ie - if a person's first trip to Europe were to go straight to Maramures, would it be an insightful look at "Europe" as a whole? No, in fact, it may well be off-putting to some, but I would think that most of us would know that it wasn't reflection of anything more than this one region of Romania. So then this seems really more an uproar about semantics without regard for any real harm. We as a group suspect we know the truth, or at least our version of it, but don't care much for what was said or how it was stated or both. So what? If a person were really interesting in Vietnam, they're bound to have read plenty of raves on the Asia board or elsewhere. If these few negative comments from one person could dissuade that trip so easily, don't you think think there's a reasonably good chance that person might have not cared for rural Vietnam as well?
