Cowboy1968

Okay.. as it's still a few years to make a decision, here is my "vision" (Keep in mind that you need an evaluation from someone familiar with the situation in the US, so take it just as an example!!!)

If I had her resumee on my desk, and I do get a few to assess, this full undergratuate studies abroad would stand out. The "norm" nowadays is 2 semesters if someone goes abroad (probably more easy within the EU than transatlantic).

Why did you go to a good school in the UK and not the US?

Regardless of what you cousins on either side of the Atlantic think and how often you quarrel about saying tomato properly, it's not exactly the biggest culture shock to go from one English-speaking country to another.

If broadening your horizon had been the key issue, wouldn't you have gone the full mile and picked a semester or two at ENA?
Different country, different language. Not just saying chips instead of fries?

In these times, no multi-national sees the UK as something "exotic" but it's usually a hub for its European or EMEA business. So it's no different to live there or in New York.

Next to your daughter's resume is one of a girl who just went for 1-2 semesters abroad, to Salamanca, Spain (I don't even have a clue if that would even be the economics hotspot).
So this girl is fluent now in another world language (which would make her perfect for our Buenos Aires office).

All examples are totally blown out of proportion and may have zero relevance in real US recruiting practices! Just as food for thought to examine if your and your daughter's criteria will be eventually relevant for the recruiters she will deal with.

But I would keep in mind (if you stay focused on the UK) that London is THE hotspot for anything in real life economics, i.e. has the highest density of companies that can offer internships or other kind of work practice.
Extra-curricular experience, networking, .. all this counts (only IMO) more than the quaintness of the school's location these days.

bennnie

In EMEA attending university in the UK may be pedestrian but I'm pretty sure lots of US recruiters would see the value of it. She'll apply to US schools as well that have great economics departments but she won't be faulted (by a recruiter) for wanting to spread her wings a bit. But even if she were to attend St. Andrews, there wouldn't be anything stopping her from spending a year elsewhere. As you said, its all about the internships these days.

Mutti

My daughter attended a school in Canada instead of the US where we live. She did her third year at a uni in Germany, unrelated to her regular university. These are some things I noticed just from sending a child to another country to study. The education systems are different in all countries and there were some places where she excelled and there were other places where the others had more requirements. She wasn't able to return home often, and at times this proved lonely for her, especially the first year. The banking, payments etc. were sometimes difficult. We had to prove she wasn't going to go on the dole and we had to prove that she had adequate health insurance. Some of this required faxing and bank transfers. The exchange rate was favorable for us for the first year, and not so much by the time she was finished--it is important to plan for this. I did go with her at the beginning to help her along. Even finding a flat and paying for it was a little problematic. I also learned that Canadian (and maybe other schools?) valued the education more than many of the US schools. In the US, even at the upper level schools, we found it was more of a consumer product. Not bad, just interesting. All that, she had a great experience, is in grad school in the US now. She did have some people question her undergrad choice when she applied for work and grad school, but it did not seem to be a detriment. It was a great experience for her.

Also--since she is only 16, you said it--there may be many changes in the direction she wants to go before all is said and done! My daughter was set one way until March of her senior year, then did the 180 to Canada!

tahl

If you haven't already, I would look in detail at the UCAS website, http://www.ucas.com/ , and possibly poke around on amazon.co.uk to see if there are useful books, especially books aimed at international students.

The English undergraduate education structure is very, very unlike the US structure. (I speak from experience in both.) There's no equivalent in the English structure to the US idea of being an econ major who also takes some courses in art history and German literature. The Scottish structure is, as I understand it, more like the US structure, in that you can pursue some studies outside your main field. I don't know about N.Ireland or Ireland.

If she is seriously interested in attending a UK university, I would talk sooner rather than later to someone about appropriate preparation in her US high school -- something that would be equivalent to A-levels, and if she wants to do economics, in particular to A-levels in math and economics (especially math). If her high school offers IB, that may be a good option.

Gordon_R

Students at St Andrews typically take a 4-year honours degree course which allows a certain amount of flexibility in what subjects you study in the first 2 years before you have to finally decide which subject you will focus on for your fianl 2 years. From the university website:-

<i><b>Your first two years </b>

You can use your first two years to discover your own specific strengths before finalising your degree intentions at Honours level.

In the first year you are required to study three subjects. Beyond the requirement to attend the First level modules in the subject(s) to which you have been offered a place, you will be able to choose your other modules from the broad range available in many other subjects.

At the end of each semester you will have the option of continuing with the subjects you are studying; or you can drop one subject and take up something new, provided that you complete any compulsory component of your intended degree.

<b>Honours Years</b>

Towards the end of your second year, if your work has been of a good standard, then you can make a final choice of Honours programme from the Second level subjects that have been most attractive to you. It is in your final two years that you will be able to specialise and gain an intimate knowledge of your chosen subject(s). </i>



From the St Andrews website

BKP

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but I have a quick question and I want to take advantage of the experts! If my son has British citizenship, but not residency will he pay local or overseas fees? Little background; we should have citizenship next summer, fingers crossed, but university is still a few more years off. We're not sure if we will still be living in England when it's time to apply for university. We're not sure where we will be living at all, but we want to make sure our son has options.

jamikins

I believe it is based on residency (it is subsidised by taxes paid, which is based on residency).

bennnie

One bit of progess on this little project has been that we have identified a student who graduated from our local high school (classmate of my older daughter) who is currently attending St. Andrews! I love Facebook! Hopefully he'll be a good source of info.

thanks again to all the posters - everyone has contributed to our knowledge and understanding of the differences and challenges of UK education. It's given her a lot to think about over the next year.

Alec

BKP

British citizenship alone won't qualify for home student fees (now up to £9000 a year, but you can take a loan for up to full amount). Overseas (international) student fees vary, set by each uni, but usually from around £12,000, higher for certain subjects like Medicine, Sciences, Engineering etc payable upfront.
Your son needs to be 'ordinarily resident' in UK or in EEA for 3 years prior to starting the course. If it's just your son living in UK, it can't be for the main purpose of receiving education (e.g. to attend boarding school). If he comes as your dependant, that's fine.

SkyeHigh

Great replies on the educational bit. My addis to apply for the EU passport. It is very beneficial in the long run to have duel citizenship. And an Irish/EU passport opens up someclosed doors regarding employment!

tarquin

Do think about the climate when making a choice. Four years at St Andrews makes me shudder, unlike in a city like Edinburgh or London. I know young people don't worry alot about the weather, but grey skies can get anyone down with no big city excitement to counter.

DickieG

Tarquin

She could do as most of us Scots do in the face of climatic adversity.

Eat lots of chocolate, drink plenty of alcohol and spend winters in The Bahamas.

littlejane

I see nobody has really mentioned Trinity - they have a pretty good economics department, a nice environment for visiting students (I know she plans to be full-time rather than just visiting for a year, but still it helps to have an international programme) and a campus right in the centre of a vibrant but small capital city. They also prioritise places in their campus accomodation for people from overseas - staying in the campus accomodation for 1st year at least is a good way of meeting others in your first year.

Another factor could be that the Irish school leavers exam is not as specialised as the A Levels, so 1st year of an Irish university should be pitched at a more accessible level than 1st year of a UK university where students have reached a higher level in say maths before coming to college. I went to Trinity myself and remember how easy the first year maths classes seemed to those who had come from Northern Ireland / GB compared to how hard it seemed to us!

Not in any way recommending Trinity over St Andrews, but just wanted to add something to the mix!

nytraveler

Well it's interesting that in Scotland the system is more like the US - with 4 years, the first 2 of which you can take courses in a variety of subjects. (In the US kids typically take 5 courses per semester and many of these are requirements they have get out of the way. For example, even though I knew I was going to major in history - and eventually ended up with most courses in history, poli sci and anthropology - in my first years I had to take 2 semesters of math, 2 of science, 2 of English, 4 of fine arts or philosophy or similar - and pass a foreign language exam - which exempted me from taking 4 semesters of a foreign language. Oh, also 2 semesters of gym - thank god they offered riding.)

My understanding is that in the UK students are muchmore focused on a major from the begining and have very limited chioces of other courses to take.

lantana

Very timely thread for me, as my daughter (15) just met with a University of St. Andrews representative at her school. It's her #1 choice for undergraduate and she will apply to go next summer to their 4-week Scottish Studies program. Should be a great way for her to determine whether she'd like to live there for 4 years

BKP

Hmm . . . not exactly what I wanted to hear but good to know! Thank you.

sheila

In Scotland you are admitted to a Faculty and not a department and it's only in Junior Honours (third) year that you start to specialise! So it would be open to your daughter to start with, say, economics and French/ Spanish, and when she moves on to Junior Honours to take that year in a French, Belgian/ Spanish University. Have a look at the Erasmus Programme. Thus, she could kill all Cowboy's birds with one stone.

There's a web site called something like Complete University Guide, which ranks St Andres, Edinburgh and Glasgow in the top 12 for Economics in the UK. And, I hate to say it, but Durham and Bath are up there too.

alanRow

<i>I know young people don't worry alot about the weather, but grey skies can get anyone down with no big city excitement to counter.</i>

At St Andrews they make their own entertainment

http://www.scotsman.com/news/royal_w...drews_1_479274

Another advantage is that the background of a significant number of students means that Daddy (or Mummy in these non-sexist times) may just happen to have a jet, yacht and a chalet in Switzerland - or a title.

flanneruk

"My understanding is that in the UK students are muchmore focused on a major from the begining and have very limited chioces of other courses to take."

This is a widespread American misapprehension.

Over half my undergraduate contemporaries made dramatic course switches before taking their degree. There were simply a couple of extra hurdles: you often had to convince the tutors about your motives (in my day there'd been an earlier epidemic of people wanting a switch to psychology when they really wanted clinical psychiatry treatment) and that you'd be able to handle the new course - by getting up to A level standard before the switch, and/or by extending your undergraduate days by an extra year.

Policies vary a bit (though it's astonishing how fast you can get to A level physics or Mandarin from scratch if you're motivated) - but generally the better universities actively encouraged switching in my day - and still appear to.

PatrickLondon

Oxbridge allows a break-point where a change of degree subject is possible, others don't so much. But what isn't (still) that common in UK universities is a mix-and-match or cafeteria approach to your course/programme. You're admitted to do a pre-defined set of syllabuses: options to add on extra secondary subjects or occasional courses (and have them counted as part of the final degree assessment) are usually similarly limited to a pre-defined range of what's considered to make up a coherent degree programme.