I've never worried much about before/after tax. 15% of 8% is only 1.2%. <BR> <BR>As for the removal of plates, in a nice restaurant, plates of finished diners should never be removed until everyone has finished that course. That's standard waiter etiquette.

Elvira, did she make a salary or was she paid beans per hour? If she made a salary, the included tip pays that, in a roundabout way. Like in Germany, tax and service are included in the prices on the menu but the waiters make the same salary regardless of what is ordered. As far as buying jumbo CDs (I assume you're talking about saving for retirement) it's my impression that Europeans don't save for retirement like Americans. I think they assume they'll get a good pension from the government. I'm just guessing on that one but that seems to be the case with my German coworkers.

This thread is interesting - what a variety of opinions. Having worked briefly at waiting, and being really bad at it, I have a great appreciation for the job. Having eaten in VERY expensive first class establishments, VERY cheap, second-rate joints, and everything in between, my peeve isn't the tip, it's the staff. Except for the very top of the line and the occasional other, today's waitstaff is, usually, simply unprofessional. They don't know how to serve: reaching in front of a patron's face, asking the patron to hold something, splashing water on the table while pouring, asking, "you guys ready?" instead of "may I take your order?" unfamiliar with the menu and/or tossing it at the patron, not pulling out the chairs, forgetting the patron's request for salt/napkins/etc. Several posters have mentioned "standard" practice. These days, no one trains waitstaff so there is no standard. I don't think I'd let most of them serve my cat. Then their personal attributes: waitresses with black nail polish (it looks like a disease, dearie!), waiters with five o'clock shadows, visible tattooes (do they find their employees each day at the wharf?), chewing gum, poor posture, scratching, disinterest or the opposite, too too chatty. I travel so frequently for work in the U.S. and insist that meals not be grabbed at a fast food joint. I search out expensive restaurants, but I always leave shaking my head. I know it's hard work for little reward, and there are exceptions, but pride is seriously missing. Having said all that, I usually leave 15-20% as long as I'm not wearing anything I ordered when I walk out the door. And when I have a waiter who knows what s/he is doing - a real professional, I've been known to round up big time.

I'm somewhat offended by the person who implied that waiting tables is done by uneducated people. I've been waiting tables and bartending for 10 years, as I go to college and decide what I want to do with my life. I have a bachelors degree in social and behavioral sciences, however, I cannot find a job that will pay me the $1000+ per week that I make working 5 nights a week in a nice sports bar. I am now finishing another degree, this one in nursing, because it is the only job that I can find in this town where I will make at least as much as I am now. Thank God I love nursing. <BR> <BR>Have you all not heard what the word "tips" stands for? <BR>To <BR>Insure <BR>Proper <BR>Serice <BR> <BR>An overeducated bartender

I agree with the person who had no interest in complaining to management, the kitchen, or anyone else. I just won't be back, and I sure as hell am not going to be generous with a tip. Why should I? Out of pity for the waiter and his $3.30/hour base wage lot in life? A. Wait staff do just fine, thank you very much (see $1000/week above), and B. I can think of more worthy charities anyway. <BR> <BR>If the waiter is competent, he can find a position in a restaurant more worthy of his talents and make tips hand over fist, and (not that I care, but) management will get the message through inability to retain good staff. <BR> <BR>If the waiter really wanted to ensure my enjoyment, he would have warned me not to eat there.

In 1998, median hourly earnings (not including tips) of full-time waiters and waitresses were $5.85. The middle 50 percent earned between $5.58 and $6.32; the top 10 percent earned at least $7.83. Adding tips the median wage is about $35,000. <BR> <BR>According to the American Federation of Teachers, beginning teachers with a bachelor’s degree earned an average of $25,700 in the 1997-98 school year. <BR> <BR>Median annual earnings of social workers were $30,590 in 1998. <BR> <BR>I find it amazing that so many people here feel that they MUST tip at least 20% to allow wait staff to make a more liveable wage, yet as a society we pay so little to our teachers and social service workers who are required to have a college degree in order to work in their fields. How many of you have voted against a tax increase for schools or have bothered to write to your Representatives to tell them you think public service workers deserve more... <BR>

Best post of them all, Chris. Thank you!

This has been a very interesting and thoughtprovoking discussion -- thanks to all who have contributed! As I reread this morning [here in Chicago] and reflect on recent "dining out experiences" one issue comes to the fore. For me the central issue is HOW the waiter earns his/her $$$ and what that means for OUR experience. <BR> <BR>When you have servers dependant on tips to fulfill their income you get two things going. One: a temptation to get you to order pricier items. [I recently had a server at an upscale restaurant in Chicago put me in the position where I couldn't say no gracefully to bottled water because we were with guests -- it was clear who the hosts were and they asked the guests if they wanted water -- then it started flowing before I could catch what was happening. It added considerably to the bill by the time it was through.] <BR> <BR>The second is the false friendliness thing. I'd MUCH rather have a professional waiter who is polite, attentive and doesn't fawn, or disappear if it has been determined we might not be a "good tip". Which is to say that I wish we had the European system. But then the system we have is the result of corporate greed and the disregard for the welfare of those you employ.

It is absurd to compare the salary of a teacher with the salary of a waiter/waitress. The quality of life for a teacher - in general - is much, much higher, if we are talking strictly about wages and benefits. Teachers have months and months of paid vacation, tenure, plenty of sick days, pension plans, and health benefits. Waitresses have none of the above in most cases. I have known plenty of teachers who have supplemented their (admittedly, meager) salaries with second summer jobs, or by spending the summer writing a book.

TIPS are not "To Insure Proper Service" as someone here said. No one is that "entitled" Tips are not required and are a bonus for good service. They are discetionsary and no one should have to tip a certain level to receive service. I can say this after 3 years of waiting tables in college, I worked hard to give people good service so they would tip me. Not the other way around where they have to tip me to get service!

Quick question. Who sets the tipping rates on cruise lines? I was expected (according to printed guidelines) to tip people I never even saw on my cruise. I.E. headwaiter. What is up with that? They actually give you flat fees per day (I know suggested). Still shouldn't tipping be commensurate with service provided. I have heard some wonderful stories about staff bending over backwards and others where they didn't exist. What are your thoughts?

Lizzie, you may know some teachers, but you surely have no idea what teaching is like, certainly not in elementary and secondary schools (and what on earth is def.hub.edu -- no educational site I ever heard of). <BR> <BR>No restaurant servers have to go into debt so they can study for 4-6 yrs. and get a degree and a license just to get a job. Waitstaff often work incredibly hard, but during the year I work from 7:30am until long into the night doing class prep and grading. <BR>During summer, I do indeed have to supplement my income; and in the years when I've waited tables, it's been a welcome break. But in order to maintain accreditation, I have to take continuing ed courses in the summer on "my own time." Those of us not teaching in college have none of the security that university tenure does. Yes, I have benefits, which -- aside from the fact that I enjoy my kids -- is why I stay in teaching. But I don't even have time to be writing this, let alone a novel. <BR> <BR>Waitstaff have to put up with a lot of guff, but most restaurants don't need metal detectors at their doors. They don't have to worry about attacks on one side from parents and on the other from school board, endure endless meetings, proctor exams, chaperone outings and proms, and face the constant threat of a budget freeze or cutbacks because people think we already earn enough. And servers don't have to bring their own supply of dishes, table silver and napkins because the restaurant won't supply them. I'd hate to tell you how much out-of-pocket I am for classroom materials. <BR> <BR>I know from tough experience that waiting tables is exhausting and makes very few people (other than the Hooters gang, apparently) wealthy. But don't for a minute think that teachers have it one bit easier or make one dime more per hour. There are some weeks when it isn't even close.

Mike, <BR>I have a hard time believing that your sob story is typical. If that were the case, then only stupid people would go into teaching.

First of all, my response was solely regarding salary, which I believe I stated quite clearly. I do not wish to debate quality of life issues, nor do I wish to discuss the relative merit of either job. <BR> <BR>Second, my mother was a public school teacher her entire career, and she did have tenure. As is, I believe, typical for public school districts. Perhaps you are just unlucky in your choice of where to live/teach. <BR> <BR>Third, hub.edu is a Harvard address, not that it matters. My old address, in fact, sans def - which I added in case someone with the same first initial and last name has come along since I graduated. <BR> <BR>And if summers spent waiting tables were a welcome break from teaching, I certainly hope I never have children in your classroom!

after reading all the replies I can honestly say THANK GOD I LIVE IN SCOTLAND!!Service charge is normally included. I don't think I could up with all that stress when I'm supposed to be out enjoying myself! <BR>Now I understand the obsession some people seem to have about tipping when on holiday. <BR>Why not start campaigning for a change in law to stop all this and to give the poor waiting staff a decent living without having to practically 'beg'.

I always "went with the flow" and tipped 15% in restaurants in the USA. When in Rome......etc. However, after reading here that a waiter in a "sportsbar" earns US$ 1,000+ per week !!! for working only 5 evenings, I will greatly reduce tips next time. US$ 1,000 is almost an average monthly net salary here.

Funny how someone (a teacher) can belittle a job (waiting tables) when that person has no idea what's involved. Unless I missed something, I didn't see where any server was ridiculing any teacher.Unfortunately not all were privileged to attend college. I'm sure servers also have mortgages and kids in schools just as teachers do and are doing the best they can with what they have. Just because one's a teacher doesn't mean one's a good teacher. I recall "oh well, if I have a degree and don't know what to do when I get out of college, I can always teach". <BR>Sad to say, I have met a burned out teacher or two along the way.

I am very sympathetic with wait staff. But I do not believe I should tip a set percentage regardless, or even a minimum percentage. If the service is good, then 15 percent of the total (including the tax). If it's better, then more. If it's poor service, then 10-12%. I do not agree that customers should make up for the poor money that restaurant owners pay. Perhaps wait staff should organize and demand more pay. I have no sympathy whatsoever with the management or owners. Studies show they make no money off their food ... that profit's all about bar service and wine, which take little skill on the part of the wait staff. So, shall I pay a large percent tip for low skill activity? I think the wait staff are stuck.

I know many servers who have college educations. They simply choose to be servers and say they make more money waiting tables thatn they would at another job related to their education. Therefore, I can't stand to hear some servers omplain about the meager earnings they receive and the benefits they lack. There is always the option of putting that eduation to good use at a profession with tenure, salary, benefits, etc. its just that some people in the US are tipping over 20% and the way prices are right now thats alot. These servers are making more than many others, we should not feel compelled to tip at least a certain amount.

John Doe and Lizzie: <BR> <BR>Lizzie's first post said, verbatim: "The quality of life for a teacher - in general - is much, much higher, if we are talking strictly about wages and benefits. Teachers have months and months of paid vacation, tenure, plenty of sick days, pension plans, and health benefits. Waitresses have none of the above in most cases. I have known plenty of teachers who have supplemented their (admittedly, meager) salaries with second summer jobs, or by spending the summer writing a book." <BR> <BR>First, I do think the point of the post was to say teachers have it easy. If having "months and months" off in the summer to "write a book" isn't a quality of life issue, I don't know what is. <BR> <BR>And I didn't say high school teachers don't get tenure, just that it means a lot less in a public school system than it does in a university. You are not "fire-proof," believe me. <BR> <BR>Finally, John, did you miss the fact that I have waited tables, that it's a very hard way to make a living, but that it's a different kind of pressure with -- no question -- less financial certainty but also some insulation from community politics? <BR> <BR>I'd hope my response to Lizzie was to emphasize that it's apples and oranges, that there are enough "miseries" and advantages to go around. Anyone who thinks a teacher has it soft OR a server has it soft has never been either one.