What would you do?
Jul 18th, 2004, 01:07 PM
#1
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What would you do?
Check out: <http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/...icleid=711>
If you were in line waiting to board a plane, or just seated, and saw a group of suspicious people boarding, what would you do? Would you consider leaving? Has anyone done so?
If you were in line waiting to board a plane, or just seated, and saw a group of suspicious people boarding, what would you do? Would you consider leaving? Has anyone done so?
Jul 18th, 2004, 07:16 PM
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Frightening story. Do you mean to tell me that on board Federal Marshalls just sat there and did nothing throughout the entire flight? If the regular passengars noticed what was going on, where were the Marshalls? Why didn't they interrupt all the bathroom visits. Why aren't the flight attendants more aggressive?
My parents, both well into their mid-80's, are always asked to remove their shoes but I am a diabetic who travels with a glucometer and spring-loaded pen for finger pricking in my carry-on. I always carry a letter from my doctor. Over the last 3 years, since 9/11, I have flown numerous times in the U.S. and Canada + over the Pacific to the Orient and Australia three times and not once has any security questioned me, not here in the U.S., Vancouver, Sydney, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Beijing...NO WHERE.
On a flight to Singapore, just weeks after 9/11, Cathay Pacific gave us plastic knives but metal forks. Now, someone please tell me, does this make any sense?
My parents, both well into their mid-80's, are always asked to remove their shoes but I am a diabetic who travels with a glucometer and spring-loaded pen for finger pricking in my carry-on. I always carry a letter from my doctor. Over the last 3 years, since 9/11, I have flown numerous times in the U.S. and Canada + over the Pacific to the Orient and Australia three times and not once has any security questioned me, not here in the U.S., Vancouver, Sydney, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Beijing...NO WHERE.
On a flight to Singapore, just weeks after 9/11, Cathay Pacific gave us plastic knives but metal forks. Now, someone please tell me, does this make any sense?
Jul 18th, 2004, 09:55 PM
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This article was discussed in great length on the Europe board. As the report is examined in more detail holes are appearing in the story. I for one am waiting until this plays out before I will believe it.
Jul 19th, 2004, 07:45 AM
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The discussion on the Europe board was mostly whether the article was genuine, and a side discussion on Michael Moore.
I was asking what you would do in a specific situation.
One one flight, my wife and I refused to get on the plane because of our security concerns (a long story).
I was asking what you would do in a specific situation.
One one flight, my wife and I refused to get on the plane because of our security concerns (a long story).
Jul 19th, 2004, 12:46 PM
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As well trained and financed as the 9-11 terrorists appear to have been, I would be very surprised if they hadn't taken steps to appear normal. People who think they know in advance what a terrorist looks like are deluding themselves.
Since the current wave of terrorism is fashioned as a Jihad, I guess we should give special attention to all Muslims, not just those of middle eastern appearance; for example, in the USA there are a large number of Blacks who have become Muslims, not to mention the many Asian Muslims.
Assuming the story is accurate, and there are glaring errors in it that are hard to overlook, I think the Air Marshals acted appropriately. The whole idea of Air Marshals is that, since there are not enough to staff every flight, you don't know if any are on your flight; if they start being toilet line monitors, they give themselves away, which diminishes their effectiveness.
I also have no problem when a child or an old person is subjected to extra scrutiny. This is because, at least at one time, they had a system that insured random extra scrutiny (such as every twelfth person, etc.) and that makes it hard for a terrorist to insure that he, or she, won't be subject to that scrutiny. The system doesn't work, however, if the scrutineers just wave some people through because of their prejudices. I seem to recall reading quite a while ago that a child was found to have a weapon in a doll, and was caught by the random extra scrutiny, and I find it hard to believe that with all the money the Jihadists are said to have, they couldn't find a nice grandmotherly person to sacrifice herself.
I know I travel on tickets that are non-refundable. Jed, did you have tickets of that nature when you declined to board? And if so, what was the result?
Since the current wave of terrorism is fashioned as a Jihad, I guess we should give special attention to all Muslims, not just those of middle eastern appearance; for example, in the USA there are a large number of Blacks who have become Muslims, not to mention the many Asian Muslims.
Assuming the story is accurate, and there are glaring errors in it that are hard to overlook, I think the Air Marshals acted appropriately. The whole idea of Air Marshals is that, since there are not enough to staff every flight, you don't know if any are on your flight; if they start being toilet line monitors, they give themselves away, which diminishes their effectiveness.
I also have no problem when a child or an old person is subjected to extra scrutiny. This is because, at least at one time, they had a system that insured random extra scrutiny (such as every twelfth person, etc.) and that makes it hard for a terrorist to insure that he, or she, won't be subject to that scrutiny. The system doesn't work, however, if the scrutineers just wave some people through because of their prejudices. I seem to recall reading quite a while ago that a child was found to have a weapon in a doll, and was caught by the random extra scrutiny, and I find it hard to believe that with all the money the Jihadists are said to have, they couldn't find a nice grandmotherly person to sacrifice herself.
I know I travel on tickets that are non-refundable. Jed, did you have tickets of that nature when you declined to board? And if so, what was the result?
Jul 20th, 2004, 04:19 AM
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Well, guys, I realy wasn't discussing the article. It has been discussed to its end on a post on the Europe board. Note that no more replies are allowed. That was not the purpose of my post.
The purpose of my post was to ask the question as to what you would do if you were suspicious (by whatever definition you want) of people on the plane. So far no one has answered the question.
As to what happened when my wife and I refused to get on the plane, it wasn't a long story. It was a very, very long story. In the end, we got on the plane after our security concerns were completely resolved.
As it happened, it was a business class ticket, so it was most likely refundable. But even if it were not, we would not get on a plane which we thought significantly unsafe, even though we would lose money.
The purpose of my post was to ask the question as to what you would do if you were suspicious (by whatever definition you want) of people on the plane. So far no one has answered the question.
As to what happened when my wife and I refused to get on the plane, it wasn't a long story. It was a very, very long story. In the end, we got on the plane after our security concerns were completely resolved.
As it happened, it was a business class ticket, so it was most likely refundable. But even if it were not, we would not get on a plane which we thought significantly unsafe, even though we would lose money.
Jul 20th, 2004, 05:00 AM
#7
I'll tell you what I would do. I would try to take a nap and try to cut back on the caffeine in the future. It would be from lack of sleep, I guess, that would allow my imagination to run wild enough for me to think certain people were suspicious. Or maybe I just have a lack of imagination. I can't imagine that I could spot people on the plane who would make it "significantly unsafe". So, in the back of my mind I think I would realize that my fear was unwarranted and I would take a nap.
I consider flying to be very significantly safe.
Jul 20th, 2004, 05:15 AM
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I will try to answer your question.
You are basing your question on the article. There was no apparent security threat, so I would not do anything. I would just enjoy the flight.
Somebody else wants to allow their xenophobia to take over, let them. As a matter of fact, I would watch <b>that</b> person very carefully from that point on.
Folks, the day anybody can predict that somebody is dangerous, that's the day we get rid of any terrorist problems.
There is no such thing. Her fears were based on the general atmosphere in our country today. It had nothing to do with reality.
I bet if she was asked privately, she would advocate setting up internment camps for ALL Arab-Americans. The terrorists are winning the war with this lady and anybody else that believes in the same principle. They are tearing apart the base of our beliefs. The day we start shooting at each other is the day we loose the war.
I work with Arab-Americans that put their lives on the line protecting their country on a daily basis. Yet they are very devout Muslims and "look" like any Arab terrorist.
Stop this madness.
To answer your question about the possibility of what I would do, <b>IF</b> there really was a hijack attempt? I would do the same as any redblooded American male(whether it's European-American, Arab-Amarican, African-American, Asian-American) would do to protect his children, wife, country. Kill the MFs.
Does that answer your question? I look at it this way. On 9/11 the terrorists upped the game, so no more Mr. Nice Guy, but I have to know that the person is trying to hurt the people or the country I love before I take action. Not base it on some baseless racist beliefs.
You are basing your question on the article. There was no apparent security threat, so I would not do anything. I would just enjoy the flight.
Somebody else wants to allow their xenophobia to take over, let them. As a matter of fact, I would watch <b>that</b> person very carefully from that point on.
Folks, the day anybody can predict that somebody is dangerous, that's the day we get rid of any terrorist problems.
There is no such thing. Her fears were based on the general atmosphere in our country today. It had nothing to do with reality.
I bet if she was asked privately, she would advocate setting up internment camps for ALL Arab-Americans. The terrorists are winning the war with this lady and anybody else that believes in the same principle. They are tearing apart the base of our beliefs. The day we start shooting at each other is the day we loose the war.
I work with Arab-Americans that put their lives on the line protecting their country on a daily basis. Yet they are very devout Muslims and "look" like any Arab terrorist.
Stop this madness.
To answer your question about the possibility of what I would do, <b>IF</b> there really was a hijack attempt? I would do the same as any redblooded American male(whether it's European-American, Arab-Amarican, African-American, Asian-American) would do to protect his children, wife, country. Kill the MFs.
Does that answer your question? I look at it this way. On 9/11 the terrorists upped the game, so no more Mr. Nice Guy, but I have to know that the person is trying to hurt the people or the country I love before I take action. Not base it on some baseless racist beliefs.
Jul 20th, 2004, 05:30 AM
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Maybe the author should look at this site:
<b>http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/89manzanar/89manzanar.htm</b>
especially this page:
<b>http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/89manzanar/89facts1.htm</b>
<b>http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/89manzanar/89manzanar.htm</b>
especially this page:
<b>http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/89manzanar/89facts1.htm</b>
Jul 20th, 2004, 03:01 PM
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No, wait, Jed, come back!
This is a story that will be given spin by both ends of the political spectrum, depending on the point they want to make (we need to get tough and the heck with political correctness and everyone needs to recognize the danger and vote accordingly OR profiling doesn't work and it's a conservative plot to make us terrified and forget that our civil rights are in great danger).
Me? What would I do? I'm sure I'd be petrified, BUT I'm also sure I'd call officials' attention to whatever I could justifiably call suspicious action. You wrote, "saw a group of suspicious people..." -- that in itself doesn't give me much to report. And yes, I'd consider leaving, but would I? I used to be flight phobic for other reasons, and I know that after the one time I declined to board because I knew there were bad thunderstorms en route, it was almost impossible to force myself to get on the next plane, even with no danger.
But I think in the case of the "Syrian band" story, I might not have gotten worried until someone started to act oddly, and then I'd probably embarrass myself by going to a FA to say what I saw. And truth is, I've done that -- reported an abandoned suitcase, pointed out someone who was obviously inebriated and picking fights with chairs and tables.
I have a lot of flights ahead of me. I find myself more jittery on the flight out than on the flight home. And for the truly terrified: go to the websites of the major airlines, download their PDF timetables and note how many of their planes are in the air just on one day. I sorry but I do think that the probability that planes will be used again is much higher than zero, but I figure I've never won a lottery or a raffle drawing, so why should I assume I'll "win" the lottery involving thousands of planes over hundreds of days.....
If it was a dry run, finally, what do you think the terrorists AND the marshalls learned from the episode?
This is a story that will be given spin by both ends of the political spectrum, depending on the point they want to make (we need to get tough and the heck with political correctness and everyone needs to recognize the danger and vote accordingly OR profiling doesn't work and it's a conservative plot to make us terrified and forget that our civil rights are in great danger).
Me? What would I do? I'm sure I'd be petrified, BUT I'm also sure I'd call officials' attention to whatever I could justifiably call suspicious action. You wrote, "saw a group of suspicious people..." -- that in itself doesn't give me much to report. And yes, I'd consider leaving, but would I? I used to be flight phobic for other reasons, and I know that after the one time I declined to board because I knew there were bad thunderstorms en route, it was almost impossible to force myself to get on the next plane, even with no danger.
But I think in the case of the "Syrian band" story, I might not have gotten worried until someone started to act oddly, and then I'd probably embarrass myself by going to a FA to say what I saw. And truth is, I've done that -- reported an abandoned suitcase, pointed out someone who was obviously inebriated and picking fights with chairs and tables.
I have a lot of flights ahead of me. I find myself more jittery on the flight out than on the flight home. And for the truly terrified: go to the websites of the major airlines, download their PDF timetables and note how many of their planes are in the air just on one day. I sorry but I do think that the probability that planes will be used again is much higher than zero, but I figure I've never won a lottery or a raffle drawing, so why should I assume I'll "win" the lottery involving thousands of planes over hundreds of days.....
If it was a dry run, finally, what do you think the terrorists AND the marshalls learned from the episode?
Jul 22nd, 2004, 07:31 AM
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I suppose I agree with AA, but am not sure. If I read the article correctly, the members of the group acted fine, even friendly, at boarding. So, under the same circumstances I would probably board.
What to do while in the air is another thing. I'd want to use a cell phone or a Blackberry to alert someone on the ground as to what was going on. But, after being assured that there were marshalls on the plane I think I would not worry as much. Now that I've read part 2 of the article, I'm more scared than ever. What in the world are we doing when nothing was done and nothing hit the mainstram press...because these "trial runs" are "normal". Egads!
And we are supposed to feel SAFER than we did three years ago? Yeah, right.
What to do while in the air is another thing. I'd want to use a cell phone or a Blackberry to alert someone on the ground as to what was going on. But, after being assured that there were marshalls on the plane I think I would not worry as much. Now that I've read part 2 of the article, I'm more scared than ever. What in the world are we doing when nothing was done and nothing hit the mainstram press...because these "trial runs" are "normal". Egads!
And we are supposed to feel SAFER than we did three years ago? Yeah, right.
Jul 23rd, 2004, 02:35 PM
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I would buy several stiff drinks for the poor deluded hysterical lady that posted the original article. She needs to chill out and take a valium before she flies. I feel sorry for those poor people who flew with her as well as the people who needed the frequent bathroom breaks. Maybe they were using the bathroom to take a nip to deal with the stress of flying with her?
Jul 23rd, 2004, 06:43 PM
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Jed,
I'm going to say something terribly politically incorrect, but here goes.
I'd get off the plane if I felt uncomfortable and noticed what I felt were suspicious activities. Forget the cost - I'd rather deal with that than the anxiety I'd endure on that long flight. -
I'm going to say something terribly politically incorrect, but here goes.
I'd get off the plane if I felt uncomfortable and noticed what I felt were suspicious activities. Forget the cost - I'd rather deal with that than the anxiety I'd endure on that long flight. -
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