What the hell is AA thinking? [DFW vs DAL]
Dec 13th, 2005, 05:27 PM
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What the hell is AA thinking? [DFW vs DAL]
Today AA announced its new flights from DAL, and cutback from DFW to 6 other cities.
Well, I think this Love Field debate has really distracted AA for what it should be doing, and it's hurting its operation. They should just get over it, really.
First, its not necessarily true that a stronger WN presence in DAL will hurt AA too much. AA has a much wider network, with strong routes to S. America from DFW, and significant European flights plus 2x daily to Tokyo.
Second, DFW's location is not necessarily a minus. It's right in the middle of the Metroplex, and most new corporation campi are in towns like Arlington, Plano, and not downtown Dallas.
Third, they just open the new train that makes connection faster and a large international terminal. It's time to promote those strength, not cut-back.
I mean, look at Houston, where I live. WN owns Hobby, which is closer to downtown than IAH. For a while CO operates shuttle flight from Ellington Field; and then some flights out of Hobby. But those are distractions and waste of resources. Instead, now they're just focusing on their strong hub at IAH. They can compete with WN.
Sure, AA will lose some of the STL-DFW business to WN. So, expand somewhere else. Why cut back to Lima, Peru? It's almost like AA's doing the cutback just to stick it to the politicians. That's not the right way to run a business.
Well, I think this Love Field debate has really distracted AA for what it should be doing, and it's hurting its operation. They should just get over it, really.
First, its not necessarily true that a stronger WN presence in DAL will hurt AA too much. AA has a much wider network, with strong routes to S. America from DFW, and significant European flights plus 2x daily to Tokyo.
Second, DFW's location is not necessarily a minus. It's right in the middle of the Metroplex, and most new corporation campi are in towns like Arlington, Plano, and not downtown Dallas.
Third, they just open the new train that makes connection faster and a large international terminal. It's time to promote those strength, not cut-back.
I mean, look at Houston, where I live. WN owns Hobby, which is closer to downtown than IAH. For a while CO operates shuttle flight from Ellington Field; and then some flights out of Hobby. But those are distractions and waste of resources. Instead, now they're just focusing on their strong hub at IAH. They can compete with WN.
Sure, AA will lose some of the STL-DFW business to WN. So, expand somewhere else. Why cut back to Lima, Peru? It's almost like AA's doing the cutback just to stick it to the politicians. That's not the right way to run a business.
Dec 14th, 2005, 05:36 AM
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My TA in Dallas tells me that the big joke in the travel industry for several years has been that one day, there will be only only one airline left in the US of A, and it will be SOUTHWEST...Read:joke.....rkk....The answer AA has given since day one
quot;We will remain competitive".What the yahev consistently failed to append to that statement: :Even if it kills us"....They CAN'T and WON'T get over it.Their business plan does not seem to have been adjusted, and NEVER WILL be...That said, they are not the Lone Ranger are they?
quot;We will remain competitive".What the yahev consistently failed to append to that statement: :Even if it kills us"....They CAN'T and WON'T get over it.Their business plan does not seem to have been adjusted, and NEVER WILL be...That said, they are not the Lone Ranger are they?
Dec 14th, 2005, 05:49 AM
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As you know, I have much respect for your knowledge of the airline business. Many times we agreed but there were few times we had a different opinions, and this is one of the times.
First, the cutbacks. They were coming anyway, so why not use it for PR purposes???
AA will protect it's cashcow known as DFW and in reality they don't have a choice. When the Missouri door opened for SW out of DAL, AA did exactly what it promised to do, It will start DAL-STL service and compete $ for $ on that route. It is SW that wants a fight and AA will give it till it hurts.
The bigger question is, and you agreed with this one few times before, why doesn't SW want to come to DFW and fly wherever they want from there?
First, the cutbacks. They were coming anyway, so why not use it for PR purposes???
AA will protect it's cashcow known as DFW and in reality they don't have a choice. When the Missouri door opened for SW out of DAL, AA did exactly what it promised to do, It will start DAL-STL service and compete $ for $ on that route. It is SW that wants a fight and AA will give it till it hurts.
The bigger question is, and you agreed with this one few times before, why doesn't SW want to come to DFW and fly wherever they want from there?
Dec 14th, 2005, 07:22 AM
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I understand that AA needs to protect its DFW hub, and make no mistake, the new WN route from STL will hurt. But starting its own DAL service is going to hurt AA more than it hurts WN.
It's the same reason why WN doesn't want to come to DFW. Running two airports cost more money than one. That's why WN would rather sacrifice market (to states beyond the seven allowed) than opening up shop in DFW. Same reason why CO closes down EFD and HOU. Rather have one strong hub than two not not-so-strong.
As for the PR thing, there's one big problem - cutting routes is BAD PR, not good PR. Telling politicians and the public "I told you so" isn't going to help getting new business. All it shows is weakness and defensiveness.
It's different from the saga with Legend. That's a small airline, and AA can spend some money and just crush it. But WN has more cash, more money, and many more friends in Congress than Legend.
It's the same reason why WN doesn't want to come to DFW. Running two airports cost more money than one. That's why WN would rather sacrifice market (to states beyond the seven allowed) than opening up shop in DFW. Same reason why CO closes down EFD and HOU. Rather have one strong hub than two not not-so-strong.
As for the PR thing, there's one big problem - cutting routes is BAD PR, not good PR. Telling politicians and the public "I told you so" isn't going to help getting new business. All it shows is weakness and defensiveness.
It's different from the saga with Legend. That's a small airline, and AA can spend some money and just crush it. But WN has more cash, more money, and many more friends in Congress than Legend.
Dec 14th, 2005, 08:18 AM
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I am looking at AA's timetable. They already run close to hourly flights DFW-STL with MD80 and 757. If I were AA, instead of spending money to start up DAL, I would change the DFW-STL runs to a hourly shuttle, with departure at :00 from 7am to 10pm.
Business travelers, who they fear losing, will like that. With FC availability, chance of upgrade, seat assignments, Admiral clubs; that's a very solid product. Hey, throw in double AAdvantage miles.
Look at the Houston-Dallas route. WN is very strong here, but even CO runs hourly service IAH-DAL with ERJ145 and every :30, and almost hourly service IAH-DFW with mixed 737/145. They don't have to compete in HOU.
And they should continue the fight in Congress, behind closed doors. Get better lobbyists, whatever. Don't put out PR saying we're cutting service. Most airlines don't release PR statements for cutting service, only when they introduce new routes or increase frequencies.
Business travelers, who they fear losing, will like that. With FC availability, chance of upgrade, seat assignments, Admiral clubs; that's a very solid product. Hey, throw in double AAdvantage miles.
Look at the Houston-Dallas route. WN is very strong here, but even CO runs hourly service IAH-DAL with ERJ145 and every :30, and almost hourly service IAH-DFW with mixed 737/145. They don't have to compete in HOU.
And they should continue the fight in Congress, behind closed doors. Get better lobbyists, whatever. Don't put out PR saying we're cutting service. Most airlines don't release PR statements for cutting service, only when they introduce new routes or increase frequencies.
Dec 14th, 2005, 08:32 AM
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I meant using PR in relation to this issue. They were going to cut the routes anyway so they used it as "I told you so". The cutbacks would not be announced if the Love Field fight wasn't happening. I agree with you on that.
but, I still disagree with you on the "stay in DFW and do your best" theory. Don't forget, about half of Dallas population is closer to Love Field than they are to DFW. By starting service out of DAL, AA is trying to compete for the half that will find DAL more convenient once the flights are non-stop to many other states.
but, I still disagree with you on the "stay in DFW and do your best" theory. Don't forget, about half of Dallas population is closer to Love Field than they are to DFW. By starting service out of DAL, AA is trying to compete for the half that will find DAL more convenient once the flights are non-stop to many other states.
Dec 15th, 2005, 06:46 AM
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Unfamiliar with DAL, but how far is it from DFW?
And is AA really so concerned with those whose itineraries begin and end in Dallas that they might undermine one of the spokes of their hub?
Puts me in mind of their pull-out from Raleigh, which had been profitable, to go to battle against someone in Nashville (or was it Memphis?). Sometimes they seem to make decisions as predators, entirely reactive to some chosen competitor, rather than pro-actively inventive regarding what they already have.
And is AA really so concerned with those whose itineraries begin and end in Dallas that they might undermine one of the spokes of their hub?
Puts me in mind of their pull-out from Raleigh, which had been profitable, to go to battle against someone in Nashville (or was it Memphis?). Sometimes they seem to make decisions as predators, entirely reactive to some chosen competitor, rather than pro-actively inventive regarding what they already have.
Dec 15th, 2005, 07:18 AM
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The great circle distance 
between DAL and DFW is 11 miles.
AA was running both BNA and RDU hubs at the same time. And it was the dominant airline at both place at the time. Just too many hubs too close together.
between DAL and DFW is 11 miles.AA was running both BNA and RDU hubs at the same time. And it was the dominant airline at both place at the time. Just too many hubs too close together.
Dec 15th, 2005, 08:55 AM
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This was posted by a Dallas FF on FlyerTalk. This was a reply to all together different issue but I believe it's very appropriate for this discussion:
Very timely with the easing of Wright restrictions, I believe this is targeting flyers like me. As Platinum for the last two years, I will not fly United or Delta over AA out of DFW. I will gladly pay even extra $$ to fly AA. However, living 5 minutes from Love Field, I will take a SW flight in a heartbeat over driving to DFW. I am sure many of my Dallas neighbors would do the same thing.
Very timely with the easing of Wright restrictions, I believe this is targeting flyers like me. As Platinum for the last two years, I will not fly United or Delta over AA out of DFW. I will gladly pay even extra $$ to fly AA. However, living 5 minutes from Love Field, I will take a SW flight in a heartbeat over driving to DFW. I am sure many of my Dallas neighbors would do the same thing.
Dec 16th, 2005, 10:21 AM
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But AA's own PR will tell you that most of the fliers in DFW are making connections, not flying from Dallas.
As my esteemed husband said, "AA just needs to quit being so reactionary and focus on doing what THEY do best."
As my esteemed husband said, "AA just needs to quit being so reactionary and focus on doing what THEY do best."
Dec 16th, 2005, 02:41 PM
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Starting Jan 3 WN will start selling tickets on its website for ATA flights from DFW to MDW.Customers will receive FF miles on WN for these flights.
They will aso be able to connect with WN flights to other destinations at Midway
Not sure if they will transfer bags between the two airlines.
They will aso be able to connect with WN flights to other destinations at Midway
Not sure if they will transfer bags between the two airlines.
Dec 25th, 2005, 08:55 AM
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lovejoy,
Yes, they will transfer checked luggage between ATA codeshares and WN-operated flights:
http://www.southwest.com/travel_cent...codeshare.html
Hope this helps,
Andre
Yes, they will transfer checked luggage between ATA codeshares and WN-operated flights:
http://www.southwest.com/travel_cent...codeshare.html
Hope this helps,
Andre
