Screwed by National Airlines
Nov 7th, 2002, 10:33 AM
#22
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I turned on CNN at lunch and caught their reporting on the situation.
In what has to be one of the all-time funniest television interviews, the CNN reporter covering the ceasing of operations was getting the opinion of various customers. Most of them were business travelers, mostly speaking of an inconvience but nothing more than that.
However, they interviewed one guy, his name escapes me at the moment, asking him what he thought of the "situation". His response, "well I've been standing in line for a while now, just wanting to know what is going on". At which the reporter answered, "sir, National has ceased operations, you did know this, right?" He responded with a "Oh no, you're kidding! I've been standing here for an hour and was wondering why no one was at the counter!"
He probably also should have wondered why no one else was in line. Just thought I'd share.
In what has to be one of the all-time funniest television interviews, the CNN reporter covering the ceasing of operations was getting the opinion of various customers. Most of them were business travelers, mostly speaking of an inconvience but nothing more than that.
However, they interviewed one guy, his name escapes me at the moment, asking him what he thought of the "situation". His response, "well I've been standing in line for a while now, just wanting to know what is going on". At which the reporter answered, "sir, National has ceased operations, you did know this, right?" He responded with a "Oh no, you're kidding! I've been standing here for an hour and was wondering why no one was at the counter!"
He probably also should have wondered why no one else was in line. Just thought I'd share.
Nov 7th, 2002, 10:54 AM
#25
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Sherry:
I don't know where to start.
Please reread my post. I'm not saying Winona and Jeff's situations are exactly similar. Far from it. But I AM saying that both of their predicaments could/would have been avoided if they had acted shown more care in their actions. If you book a flight on a known bankrupt airline, trying to save some $$,it's caveat emptor, pal. You'd better have a backup plan, just in case. To not have one is foolhardy. And most posters on this board seem to want to blame other influences- National Airlines, bankruptcy courts etc. While most of my co-workers want to blame Saks security, the D.A.'s overzealous prosecution, etc. for Winona's predicament. That's all I'm saying, I don't know how to make it more clear.
And in a more general sense, you seem to be a great example of what I'm saying about too many people in society in general. You want to lay all the blame for Jeff's predicament on the bankruptcy courts, and none on Jeff himself, when he knew (or should have known) he was taking a risk in booking on a bankrupt airline.
I don't know where to start.
Please reread my post. I'm not saying Winona and Jeff's situations are exactly similar. Far from it. But I AM saying that both of their predicaments could/would have been avoided if they had acted shown more care in their actions. If you book a flight on a known bankrupt airline, trying to save some $$,it's caveat emptor, pal. You'd better have a backup plan, just in case. To not have one is foolhardy. And most posters on this board seem to want to blame other influences- National Airlines, bankruptcy courts etc. While most of my co-workers want to blame Saks security, the D.A.'s overzealous prosecution, etc. for Winona's predicament. That's all I'm saying, I don't know how to make it more clear.
And in a more general sense, you seem to be a great example of what I'm saying about too many people in society in general. You want to lay all the blame for Jeff's predicament on the bankruptcy courts, and none on Jeff himself, when he knew (or should have known) he was taking a risk in booking on a bankrupt airline.
Nov 7th, 2002, 11:49 AM
#27
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to what is going on:
How EXACTLY was my last post leading to mass hysteria? I quote myself here and say " You take the risk everytime you fly that this could happen, but you can't let it detour you from travel." Everything is some amount of risk, my point was that just because the airline is a cheapie doesn't mean it is at any greater risk of going under, any questions?
How EXACTLY was my last post leading to mass hysteria? I quote myself here and say " You take the risk everytime you fly that this could happen, but you can't let it detour you from travel." Everything is some amount of risk, my point was that just because the airline is a cheapie doesn't mean it is at any greater risk of going under, any questions?
Nov 7th, 2002, 12:08 PM
#28
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Winona:
Perhaps National Airlines should have had a disclaimer on their ticket then: YOU MAY BE PAYING FOR THIS TICKET AND RECEIVE NO FLIGHT IN RETURN. Give me a break. THEN, if you really stretch, caveat emptor might apply, MAYBE. It's not exactly applicable to regulated areas of consumer sales. He didn't buy the ticket at an auction.
Perhaps National Airlines should have had a disclaimer on their ticket then: YOU MAY BE PAYING FOR THIS TICKET AND RECEIVE NO FLIGHT IN RETURN. Give me a break. THEN, if you really stretch, caveat emptor might apply, MAYBE. It's not exactly applicable to regulated areas of consumer sales. He didn't buy the ticket at an auction.
Nov 7th, 2002, 12:15 PM
#29
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It is ridiculous that anyone should think that they should pay whatever $$$$ and get something in return for it!! Major corporations have every right to take your money and give nothing in return that is why I am a billionaire and not even going to do jail time! and my buddy Ken Lay (enron) and his poor suffering "we lost everything" wife agree 100% with me!!
Nov 7th, 2002, 01:33 PM
#30
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I actually also had tickets with National Airlines for a flight LAX to Vegas in December. I had flown them once before last year (they had been under bankruptcy protection for some time already) and found the service on time and pleasant, so I had small worries about booking with them for a second time.
Luckily my forthcoming reservations were only for $55.00 RT. If you go to National's website they give a list of 800 numbers for other carriers "honoring" Nationals tickets. Similarly, when I visited the web sites for both JetBlue and America West, I saw announcements on their home pages about their policy for accepting Nationals ticketed passengers. Both airlines I looked into had the same policy. They will agree to fly National Ticket holders on stand-by for a $25.00 service charge. (it didn't specify if that was RT or OW). Since my ticket was relatively inexpensive, rather then fly stand by, I made a second set of reservations on America West and will call my Visa company to attempt to have the initial $55.00 ticket charge reversed. Incidentally my AmWest tickets came out to exactly the same price. Yes it's inconvenient, but this seems to be something that we all should be prepared for while travelling in this day and age. .. if it were an expensive flight, I would consider trip insurance as a way to recap on these types of unfortunate situations.
Luckily my forthcoming reservations were only for $55.00 RT. If you go to National's website they give a list of 800 numbers for other carriers "honoring" Nationals tickets. Similarly, when I visited the web sites for both JetBlue and America West, I saw announcements on their home pages about their policy for accepting Nationals ticketed passengers. Both airlines I looked into had the same policy. They will agree to fly National Ticket holders on stand-by for a $25.00 service charge. (it didn't specify if that was RT or OW). Since my ticket was relatively inexpensive, rather then fly stand by, I made a second set of reservations on America West and will call my Visa company to attempt to have the initial $55.00 ticket charge reversed. Incidentally my AmWest tickets came out to exactly the same price. Yes it's inconvenient, but this seems to be something that we all should be prepared for while travelling in this day and age. .. if it were an expensive flight, I would consider trip insurance as a way to recap on these types of unfortunate situations.
Nov 7th, 2002, 02:48 PM
#31
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Sherry:
You make my point with your posting better than I ever could, thank you!
Apparently only you would need a disclaimer on the ticket. Almost anyone else should/would realize that if you purchase goods/services deliverable at a future date from a bankrupt company, you are taking a big risk that you may, indeed, end up with nothing.
And just for the record, on your earlier post- Winona Ryder's misdeeds aren't "alleged" anymore, as you call them- she was convicted on two counts.
You make my point with your posting better than I ever could, thank you!
Apparently only you would need a disclaimer on the ticket. Almost anyone else should/would realize that if you purchase goods/services deliverable at a future date from a bankrupt company, you are taking a big risk that you may, indeed, end up with nothing.
And just for the record, on your earlier post- Winona Ryder's misdeeds aren't "alleged" anymore, as you call them- she was convicted on two counts.
Nov 7th, 2002, 03:57 PM
#32
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My point was that not everyone is or was aware that the airline was in bankruptcy. Very few people look into the economic viability of an airline before purchasing tickets. You seek to misplace personal responsibility . The airline should not sell tickets and take money if they know they will not supply the product. For you to place personal liability on the consumer and then misuse the doctrine of caveat emptor is ridiculous. Don't use words you don't understand, and cannot use properly.
Nov 7th, 2002, 05:35 PM
#33
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Sherry:
Since you're now resorting to ad hominem attacks (a dead giveaway that one's argument isn't very persuasive), I'll try one more time, but I'm not going to engage in a juvenile shouting match.
Please don't tell me I don't understand what "caveat emptor" means (in fact, I took years of Latin in both high school and college, and my guess is I know Latin much better than you!) But we're not talking about Latin here.
Once again, your posting makes my point much better than myself... namely your assertion that "...not everyone is or was aware that the airline was in bankruptcy." MY point is that he SHOULLD have been aware- as with most other things in life, ignorance is NOT an excuse. You have to be responsible enough to do your OWN homework... if you don't, then you be prepared to at least share in some of the blame. For example, there's a reason why many travel sites caution people to not pay cash to cruise lines, who are notorious for going bankrupt- if you ignore this advice and pay cash anyways for a trip far in the future, and the cruise line goes belly-up, then I say you share some of the blame. You apparently don't.
And speaking of "not using words properly," (what a RUDE comment!)- how about your line "you put personal LIABILITY on the consumer." Talk about misuse of language! I defy you to show me where I said or implied that Jeff should be LIABLE for anything... that implies he owes some debt or obligation. Obviously he doesn't, ALL I'm saying is that he should accept some responsibility for what happened, and I'm SURE next time he books a ticket on a bankrupt carrier he'll be a little more careful.
Since you're now resorting to ad hominem attacks (a dead giveaway that one's argument isn't very persuasive), I'll try one more time, but I'm not going to engage in a juvenile shouting match.
Please don't tell me I don't understand what "caveat emptor" means (in fact, I took years of Latin in both high school and college, and my guess is I know Latin much better than you!) But we're not talking about Latin here.
Once again, your posting makes my point much better than myself... namely your assertion that "...not everyone is or was aware that the airline was in bankruptcy." MY point is that he SHOULLD have been aware- as with most other things in life, ignorance is NOT an excuse. You have to be responsible enough to do your OWN homework... if you don't, then you be prepared to at least share in some of the blame. For example, there's a reason why many travel sites caution people to not pay cash to cruise lines, who are notorious for going bankrupt- if you ignore this advice and pay cash anyways for a trip far in the future, and the cruise line goes belly-up, then I say you share some of the blame. You apparently don't.
And speaking of "not using words properly," (what a RUDE comment!)- how about your line "you put personal LIABILITY on the consumer." Talk about misuse of language! I defy you to show me where I said or implied that Jeff should be LIABLE for anything... that implies he owes some debt or obligation. Obviously he doesn't, ALL I'm saying is that he should accept some responsibility for what happened, and I'm SURE next time he books a ticket on a bankrupt carrier he'll be a little more careful.
Nov 7th, 2002, 05:49 PM
#34
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OOoooh scary! Winona took Latin in high school. Woo-hoo, Winona.
Caveat emptor, at least as it applied in the US, in the legal sense, does not apply to consumer goods and services. It applies to items bought at auction, or in judicial sales. Otherwise, there is no "buyer beware" doctrine in the US, and Jeff should have expected the ticket that he paid for.
By stating that Jeff should take "responsibility" for the airlines problem, you place seek to place the liability (i.e., the loss of the ticket price) on Jeff. No consumer laws or norms in the US place the responsibility on the consumer to look into the financial health of airliners before purchasing tickets. If that was a norm or custom here, or it were expected by the consumer proction laws, you would be right, and the buyer should beware. However, that is not the custom, or the law, and Jeff did nothing wrong by purchasing the ticket, and should expect a full refund, or a flight.
Caveat emptor, at least as it applied in the US, in the legal sense, does not apply to consumer goods and services. It applies to items bought at auction, or in judicial sales. Otherwise, there is no "buyer beware" doctrine in the US, and Jeff should have expected the ticket that he paid for.
By stating that Jeff should take "responsibility" for the airlines problem, you place seek to place the liability (i.e., the loss of the ticket price) on Jeff. No consumer laws or norms in the US place the responsibility on the consumer to look into the financial health of airliners before purchasing tickets. If that was a norm or custom here, or it were expected by the consumer proction laws, you would be right, and the buyer should beware. However, that is not the custom, or the law, and Jeff did nothing wrong by purchasing the ticket, and should expect a full refund, or a flight.
Nov 7th, 2002, 06:32 PM
#35
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Sherry:
Please stop putting words in my mouth!
Of course he has the right to a full refund from his credit card company (duh!), I NEVER said he didn't!!
For the 19th time, I am NOT saying Jeff bears any LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY (as you say, the loss of the ticket price). That is an idiotic statement Sherry, since we all know Jeff will get the money back from his credit card company, as long as it is reputable. He's not going to lose a dime.
ALL I'm saying is that he didn't get "screwed"- HIS words. When you say you "got screwed," that implies at best, you were treated very unfairly and in bad faith. There is NO evidence of that here- I'm sure when National Airlines sold Jeff that ticket, they fully intended that they would be operating and make good on their committment. If you have evidence to the contrary, Counselor, I'd love to hear it.
For the FINAL time, all I'm saying is that if you buy tickets from bankrupt airlines, because it is such a high fixed-cost business with enormous capital demands, you SHOULD not be completely shocked if the company ceases operations... it happens in the airlines ALL the time. Therefore Jeff shouldn't be so shocked, and feel that he got screwed.
Please stop putting words in my mouth!
Of course he has the right to a full refund from his credit card company (duh!), I NEVER said he didn't!!
For the 19th time, I am NOT saying Jeff bears any LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY (as you say, the loss of the ticket price). That is an idiotic statement Sherry, since we all know Jeff will get the money back from his credit card company, as long as it is reputable. He's not going to lose a dime.
ALL I'm saying is that he didn't get "screwed"- HIS words. When you say you "got screwed," that implies at best, you were treated very unfairly and in bad faith. There is NO evidence of that here- I'm sure when National Airlines sold Jeff that ticket, they fully intended that they would be operating and make good on their committment. If you have evidence to the contrary, Counselor, I'd love to hear it.
For the FINAL time, all I'm saying is that if you buy tickets from bankrupt airlines, because it is such a high fixed-cost business with enormous capital demands, you SHOULD not be completely shocked if the company ceases operations... it happens in the airlines ALL the time. Therefore Jeff shouldn't be so shocked, and feel that he got screwed.
Nov 8th, 2002, 04:41 AM
#36
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Funny, I've been flying Vegas from NYC, EWR, and BDL and I always get the weekly emails from National and they were never really close to the lowest far on that route. I know some freinds who flew them because they had direct flights from NY and they got points at Harrah's or something like that but I never really considered them in same category at Jet Blue and SWA.
Nov 8th, 2002, 05:11 AM
#37
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xxx
I am assuming that you presently consider JetBlue and SWA (meaning Southwest Airlines??) in the "same category".Am I correct? If I am correct, I beg to differ.Jet Blue is a very small airline.Southwest is a very large airline.That puts them in different categories.Jet Blue is avery new airline.Southwest is not a new airline.The joke in the airline industry is that one of the days there will be one airline "left" and that airline will be Southwest.
I am assuming that you presently consider JetBlue and SWA (meaning Southwest Airlines??) in the "same category".Am I correct? If I am correct, I beg to differ.Jet Blue is a very small airline.Southwest is a very large airline.That puts them in different categories.Jet Blue is avery new airline.Southwest is not a new airline.The joke in the airline industry is that one of the days there will be one airline "left" and that airline will be Southwest.
Nov 8th, 2002, 05:22 AM
#38
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Jeff sorry about your situation. I used to work for American Airlines. You might see if some of the majors or other carriers will honor those tickets. I remember several airlines where if there was a strike etc...we would take on their passengers. There is a term which I have since long forgotten. Anyway best of luck and hope you get your trip to Vegas.
Nov 8th, 2002, 06:12 AM
#39
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Thanks for all your replies (pro and con). I didn't mean to give the impression that I was "shocked" that National went out of business. I knew that they were under bankruptcy protection. But I also knew that carriers often file for bankruptcy and reorganize, but continue to stay in business. I guess I'm just saying that it sucked that they went under a week before my trip, that's all. If some of you don't think that's getting "screwed" then fine, maybe we interpret that term differently. But clearly it "sucks," for lack of a better word.
I didn't buy the Nat'l tickets because they were that much cheaper. They had direct flights, whereas on Am. West I would have to change planes on the return trip. The Am West tickets, at the time I bought the Nat'l tix, were the same price. Now they're about $60 higher, but not the end of the world.
I didn't buy the Nat'l tickets because they were that much cheaper. They had direct flights, whereas on Am. West I would have to change planes on the return trip. The Am West tickets, at the time I bought the Nat'l tix, were the same price. Now they're about $60 higher, but not the end of the world.
Nov 8th, 2002, 06:42 AM
#40
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Jeff
You are a TRUE SPORT and probly a trooper to the end.One thing I cant stand is a sore loser.And when I see a sore loser anywhere,I just ignore them and keep going.I wish everyone cud read your story and realize their is hope.Everywhere.Everyday.And tell the whiners and potential whiners to go somewhere else and tell someone who cares
Jason
You are a TRUE SPORT and probly a trooper to the end.One thing I cant stand is a sore loser.And when I see a sore loser anywhere,I just ignore them and keep going.I wish everyone cud read your story and realize their is hope.Everywhere.Everyday.And tell the whiners and potential whiners to go somewhere else and tell someone who cares
Jason
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