Chris

I'm confused by this post. I have two VISA check cards, for accounts at two different banks. You can use them as a debit card (with a PIN) OR as a credit card, no PIN. I called both banks and one said my liability was only $50 on each, and even that could be waived, and the other said NO liability. What am I missing here??

tino

Chris,
I think the point is that this could wipe out your checking account without your knowledge, you could be in a foreign country, it could happen on a Sunday when your bank is closed etc. It could really ruin your vacation by not having access to your own cash. In foregin countries, most travelers now depend on accessing Euros or foreign currency from ATM machines. Even in the USA, travelers access ATMs in cities away from home. Now as to ultimately getting your money back....you may very well prevail but a seperate claim form has to be filed for each and every charge. Is this something you would look forward to? Who is going to cover you in the meantime? Disputes are handled with individual bank who issued the card, not with centralized Visa/Mastercard. It's the opposite of a real credit card where you receive a bill and can file a dispute for a fraudulant charge BEFORE you pay your bill. The bottom line is to get the card without the logo and that requires a PIN. This way if the card is lost or stolen, it won't benefit anyone who tries to use it since they would not know your PIN. This is a Huge Scam for many thieves because unlike credit cards, you don't sign your name...just swipe and leave with the merchandise and maybe even some cash back. Is this more clear? Consumer advocates are advising you to get rid of this type of card. There is a website posted in a previous posting (within this thread) which discusses this.

r-travels

Carolyn ([email protected]) -
Maybe other "Visa" or "MC" debit cards work different than mine, but with mine, if I use it as a credit card, I must sign a charge slip - that's why I suggested using those as a defense - whereas when I use it as a debit card, I must enter the PIN to complete the transaction, and the PIN could never be identified from any other info about me, nor in my wallet.

To Anna ([email protected]): I have a "real" Visa, tucked away at home, and carry Amex with me. I prefer to have my purchases immediately paid for, even if I could benefit from the float. I'm willing to accept the increased risk, but it's good that others have been made aware of that risk via this forum.
(there is no x in my eddress)

Ida

Interesting....there must be different kinds?? I only use mine for withdrawls from an ATM machine but on several occassions (when I'm out of cash) I've loaned it to my teenage daughter to use it to fill up her car or charge fast food. She said no pin nor a signature was required. She used it right at the pump, not inside the station. Mine does have the logo, the more I'm reading, the more confusing these cards seem to be.?? I'm afraid I have the BAD kind like Mary had! Ida

Chris

I think this is why I was confused, above. When I use my VISA check card at a restaurant or store, I have to sign a slip. If I run it through a machine, or go to an ATM for cash, I have to enter my PIN. However reading this it occurs to me that someone could use the number and expiration date and charge stuff over the phone or the Internet and my account would be deducted. So I'll pay attention to these risk issues.

sherry

I'm like you Ida...I think I too have the wrong one. I don't recal having to sign anything or enter a pin on my small purchases.I seldom use mine for anything but cash at the ATM machine, once in awhile for gasoline....never sign anything or enter a pin at gas station.Hmmmmmmmmm....

Lil

This seems to be a popular thread on the Europe Fodors board since being overseas and experiencing this is the worst of the worst. Many questions that you all are asking have been addressed in the Europe postings.

Merrily

Well,we just returned from 3 countries in Europe...France, Switzerland and Italy, I'm happy to report that we had no trouble using our ATM card whatsoever...even in tiny towns, and (like others) shortly before departing the USA on April 30, 2002...we too changed to an ATM without the Visa/Mastercard logo. All you need is your PIN (4 digit) and hopefull you will have no trouble whatsoever. We had a glorious, though some rain, vacation and obtained cash easiliy in each country we visited. Don't hesitate to convert your ATM with peace of mind, no problem without the logo as the bank may lead you to believe..?? MerrilyS.

Banker

When you have a "check card" from the bank, it works as an ATM/Debit card and as a VISA/MC. Either way, the money comes immediately from your checking account. You are responsible for the first $500 of any fraudulent transaction with a Check card used as an ATM/Debit card. This is because there is added security with the PIN you must use. You are responsible for only up to $50 of any fraudualent charge when a check card is used as a credit card. When you use your check card as a credit card you are able to use VISA/MC in any dispute with the merchant. You also can do almost anything else that you can do with a regular credit card. So, if you only use your card as an ATM/Debit, always putting your PIN in, and someone makes note of the PIN you are using or an employee at the bank makes note of it, and they get a hold of your card or clone the card, you are out $500! But if you use that same card as credit, and someone steals the card from you or clones it, the most you are out is $50. I have worked in the banking industry and I will now try to be more clear with customers on how this works. I am amazed that there is so much false information out there. FYI, im most check card used as a credit card fraud cases we waive the $50 charge. In most cases with the check card used as an ATM/Debit we make the customer pay the $500. Why?? They should have kept their PIN number more secure.

Craig

There have been many postings on Fodors as well as a show on Dateline, 60 Minutes articles in the Wall Street Journtal, websites, etc. reporting unfortunate travelers who lost their ATM cards (in USA, Europe, wherever) where their checking accounts were literaly wiped out without their knowledge. Yes, aftet filing disputes etc. you may or may not be reimbursed your losses (varies from bank to bank and is not controlled by FDIC or any banking laws) but who wants to go through this when you're on vacation (or even if you're in your own hometown??? Although, this never happened to me, most feel more secure when a 4 digit PIN is required. Too many department stores, convenience stores and gas stations etc. only require a "swipe and run" without a PIN and no one asks for any additional ID, nor is a PIN required. If you work in the banking industy, you MUST be aware of the thousands of fraudulant misuses of ATM "swipe and go" type debit cards (not at the ATM machine to withdraw cash which as far as I know Always require a PIN). Eventually reporting, completing loss forms and getting your money back etc. doesn't do you much good if you're on vacation, only to find that your checking account has been depleted! Also, the postings I've read and the newspaper articles I've read affected many people who had their mortgage, insurance premiums, utlities etc. set up for automatic withdrawl from their checking account on a set day of the month. The automatic withdrawl is set up and guess what....there is no money in your account to cover this. Depending on how often you use your card, you may not even realize that your card has been stolen! Get you head out of the sand and read about the rampant fraudulant cases being reported by unsuspecting card holders. The safest way is to eliminate the VISA/MASTERCARD logo which was put on ATM cards (without the card holder's requesting this). Without this logo, the card user will ALWAYS be required to enter a PIN....when making purchases. Personally, I switched mine about 9 months ago after a local Sacramento TV report and it's well worth the extra few seconds it may take to be required to enter my PIN. Prior, I found self service gas stations to be the worst offenders. When I had the Visa logo on my card....NEVER did any attendant ever run out to my car and request a PIN, ID etc., I'd just fill up my car with my debit card and be on my merry way. Looking back it almost seems criminal, I just never considered the downside until the public alerts. Craig Elenham

banker

There is a federal law. "Under federal banking laws, a consumer's liability is zero for fraudulent charges. The vice-president of Visa International states that member banks issuing Visa debit cards must cooperate with consumers and restore checking balances within 5 days. He states that no one should have to pay a penny in penalties and that debit card holders have the same rights and protections that traditional credit card holders have."
I have worked in the banking industry for several years and deal with this on a regular basis. If you use that PIN your liability increases to $500. Which would you rather be out?? $50 or $500. What if you have a dispute with a merchant? If you put your PIN in then there is no recourse for you at all. It is like you paid cash. If you allowed it to be processed like a credit card and you signed the slip, you will have all the rights that credit card holders have and your dipute will be handled by Visa/MC. If you are not getting all of your fraudulent transactions refunded to you, it is not the fault of the card. You need to change banks and file a complaint with your state or the federal gov't.

Janice

Mr. Dennis Banker,
You keep referring to "entering your PIN" or giving out your "PIN" out to someone (really stupid)...what is your take on the merchants that do not require a pin nor ask for any ID? I still have a debit card that was automatically sent to me (I never requested the change as I was just fine with my original ATM card from Wells Fargo Bank in California) that does have the Mastecard logo. I used it only today and it was at a small boutique, the type that others are referring to as the "swipe and go" type as I DID NOT have to enter a PIN nor did the clerk request any ID. If I were to lose this card, couldn't the thieves rack up purchases against my card without necessarily even knowing it was stolen? I too happen to have my mortgage and electric bills set up on automatic withdrawls....couldn't my card be stolen without my knowledge (I only use it approx. 6 times a month so it could be a week before I even noticed it missing)and the money be depleted out of my account? You make it sound so safe and protected but I don't think so. At least if a "real" credit card is stolen, you have the opportunity to see the charges on your card PRIOR to paying instead of the money automatically debited from your checking account. I too am considering switching my Mastercard Debit card from Wells Fargo Bank back to the kind without the logo?? Please explain. How could it NOT be safer if you are required to enter a PIN each time you use the card?? I see no advantage to this "swipe and go" type card....help me understand. Also, how come there is so much publicity on TV news etc. if their as safe as you make it sound?? Thanks Janice

Dennis

Dear Janice,
Some merchants are equipped with point-of-sale debits. This is when you swipe yourself and enter your PIN. Most large grocery chains, Walmarts, Kmarts etc have this. The money is deducted from your account immediately, as if you went to the ATM and withdrew it. You can often get cash back with this. You will not sign anything or be asked for ID as this is not a CREDIT CARD transaction. Most merchants do not have this point-of-sale debit. They take Visa/Mastercard. When you give them the check card, or in some cases swipe it yourself, they get an authorization from Visa/Mastercard in the amount of your transaction. You will be asked to sign the reciept in almost all cases. You will not enter a PIN as this is a CREDIT CARD transaction. They do not have to ask you for ID. If it is a fuel purchase, a restaurant bill, a hotel room, a rental car etc they may authorize a different amount than the amount of your transaction. This authorization withholds an amount of money from your account. This is only temporary until the merchant submits the charge, which may take a few days.

To answer your questions:
If you were to loose your card and the theives used it as a credit card, the maximum you would be liable for is $50. You do need to notify your bank ASAP that your card it missing. I suggest that you keep this card in a good place where you can see it everyday to make sure you have not lost it.
The advantage to the "swipe and go" card is that you can make purchases anywhere in the world that take Visa/Mastercard. You also will not be charged extra for this. Many merchants are now charging fees for making a POS purchase (putting in your PIN). An example is Taco Bell/KFC. if you just swiped and went using Visa/MC then there would be no fee. You can use the card to make purchases over the internet and make travel reservations. The best benefit of the check card is that you are only liable for $50. Another excellent benefit is that you can follow the Visa/MC dispute procedure with merchants. For example, you buy a TV from Store A. You use your card as a debit and put your PIN in. I am right behind you in the checkout line buying the same TV. I choose to use my card as a credit card, or "swipe and go". We both get home and find out the TV's are defective. You and I attempt to return the TV's and the store is unwilling. I tell them that I will dispute it with VISA/MC. You have no recourse. They may give me the refund right then. If not, I go to my bank and submit a dispute through Visa/MC. The amount of the dispute is immediately put back into my account and I let my bank and VISA/MC resolve the dispute for me. You are left with a bad TV.
Hope this helps. Remember technology is a good thing. Use it. Don't run from it.

Ted

No fuss and I don't need to worry ....I have a Visa as well as an American Express card for credit cards. I also have my bank ATM card without any logo (just the "plain card used for getting cash out of worldwide ATM machines). My ATM card does require a PIN so no problem if it were lost or stollen.... Obviously, with my 2 credit cards I see the bill before I pay so have the opportunity to dispute prior to paying if something is incorrect. Easy Easy...why all the fuss?? Ted