A tragic boat tour on Lake George , NY
Oct 4th, 2005, 03:59 AM
#42
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FYI - ALL the seats on the Ethan Allen were bolted to the floor. It is quite foolish to expect adults to wear life vests while on a pleasure cruise. How many of you have worn life vests on a ferry ride or pleasure cruise? Come on, seriously. Authorities believe there was only one person on the boat in a wheelchair. Most, although seniors, were pretty mobile. Survivors of the accident are saying that they saw a large wave heading toward the boat, the captain attempted to turn away from the wave and it flipped as some passengers slid out of their seats. It was an accident, folks. Why is it that people always want to blame someone? Yes, there should have been an additional crew member aboard but that probably wouldn't have made any difference.
Oct 4th, 2005, 04:28 AM
#43
My charter captain friend called back yesterday evening after talking with another captain he knows in NY state. He was correct--Coast Guard does not have jurisdiction over charter vessels in fresh water in NY.
The other capt said that they were sitting on benches, not chairs, and that when the boat suddenly listed, they all slid to one side of the bench, piling up on each other.
His friend is saying "Captain error". The Captain had to be turning away from the wave, not bow into it as he should have. Bow into the wave means the boat would bob up and down from bow to stern. If he was in the process of turning away however and the wake caught him on hte side, it would roll side to side, causing the shift in passenger weight as they all slid to one end of the bench, resulting in the eventual broach. Why would he turn away, not into the wave? To keep his passengers dry...that's all I can think of...but then if it were entirely glass enclosed that wouldn't hold.
Of course...every boat is responsible for his wake--at least in a Coast Guard controlled area, and I assume elsewhere too, so the Mohican Captain isn't entirely off the hook, if this was indeed the scenario.
The description of the group--I still hear there were only 14 from the senior center, of which 3 died--is that they were active seniors, out to do a New England Fall Foliage Tour and not a wheelchiar or walker bound group.
The other capt said that they were sitting on benches, not chairs, and that when the boat suddenly listed, they all slid to one side of the bench, piling up on each other.
His friend is saying "Captain error". The Captain had to be turning away from the wave, not bow into it as he should have. Bow into the wave means the boat would bob up and down from bow to stern. If he was in the process of turning away however and the wake caught him on hte side, it would roll side to side, causing the shift in passenger weight as they all slid to one end of the bench, resulting in the eventual broach. Why would he turn away, not into the wave? To keep his passengers dry...that's all I can think of...but then if it were entirely glass enclosed that wouldn't hold.
Of course...every boat is responsible for his wake--at least in a Coast Guard controlled area, and I assume elsewhere too, so the Mohican Captain isn't entirely off the hook, if this was indeed the scenario.
The description of the group--I still hear there were only 14 from the senior center, of which 3 died--is that they were active seniors, out to do a New England Fall Foliage Tour and not a wheelchiar or walker bound group.
Oct 4th, 2005, 04:45 AM
#44
The previous info I had regarding the number dead from the seniors trip (repeated in a number of reports) isn't correct. Here's a very interesting link profiling those lost.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...gion-apnewyork
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...gion-apnewyork
Oct 4th, 2005, 04:56 AM
#45
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OO
That's what I was thinking, why did he not go into the wave bow first. A novice boater knows that....unless he was only familiar with a flat lake.
It does make sense that they had bolted down benches and everyone slid to one side of the boat and with it being over weight and all of the weight on one side and then if she took on water..I can understand. What I can't yet understand is how a wake could have been that high. It had to be a really big boat going really fast. It was a crowded lake so there had to be other boats that caught it's wake with no problem.
That's what I was thinking, why did he not go into the wave bow first. A novice boater knows that....unless he was only familiar with a flat lake.
It does make sense that they had bolted down benches and everyone slid to one side of the boat and with it being over weight and all of the weight on one side and then if she took on water..I can understand. What I can't yet understand is how a wake could have been that high. It had to be a really big boat going really fast. It was a crowded lake so there had to be other boats that caught it's wake with no problem.
Oct 4th, 2005, 05:02 AM
#46
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OO is correct, the Coast Guard would not be involved. Further, there were no seats that were not bolted down - they are saying they were benches. The boat company has had its license taken away b/c they were supposed to have two crew members on board for any number over 21 and they only had one.
Oct 4th, 2005, 05:05 AM
#47
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Out of curiousity, does anyone know if the lake has a speed limit?
Some of the larger lakes I've seen have a limit to reduce large wakes. Not read anything about the other boat yet. Agree that I wouldn't have though life vests would be worn, but should have been available. To me it would seem obvious that the chairs weren't bolted down.
Oct 4th, 2005, 05:15 AM
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Oct 4th, 2005, 06:56 AM
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There are studies on school bus seat belts that make the issue far more complex than it would appear. It is not just about money and some parents do NOT want their children belted.
We had a tragic accident here in IL where a school bus was caught between closely placed traffic lights in dense traffic and the back end was "taken away" by a train. There were some deaths (6)but if they had been in seat belts it would have been at least 4 times that number estimated. Buses get into different kinds of accidents than cars do, plus as stated the physics are different.
Many times it depends upon the route or speed of travel that the bus encounters in its daily cycle, if seat belts really are a plus or a negative.
In the Lake George accident, I think the really unforgiveable thing is that the captain was the only one on board and that there was NO crew. What if he had a stroke or a heart attack? We don't float ANYTHING with only one knowledgeable operator on board. They suspended his license- that is not a big punishment. The big punishment will come with the lawsuits.
There was an elderly lady on TV this morning who stated she and many others were thrown life vests almost immediately but that people were UNDERNEATH the flipped vessel. She said the entire thing was so fast that she does not remember any chair slipping and that she does not even know if she fell during the flip or swam out after. She was about 75 or 80 and one of the oldest ones onboard.
We have a lot of safety laws in the USA, but don't expect all places to abide. In other countries I have seen excursions that were so dangerous and everybody just went along like sheep.
You also need to take some personal responsibility in asking questions and scoping things out. For instance, I asked during a small tour boat to go see the manatees at the springs park just North of Orlando where her assistant was. I don't want to be on any vessel that I'll have to steer or run myself when the only operator is out cold or something.
She had one crew member who came on board upon pulling in the lines/leaving the dock.
And I thought about this issue big time when I took the tour of Lake Tahoe. It looked like the thing had too many people on it when they got "picked up" at the heritage house end.
I think of this all the time because of the Eastland in Chicago. The pictures were part of my archives at one time and it was a terrible, terrible disaster. It was supposed to have been a "fun" day for GE employees. I knew one of the men who spent that day fishing out bodies from below decks. He never forgot it and repeatedly told his story to me as a kid. The fatalities were in the hundreds and most of them were women and kids and the only cause was distribution of weight.
We had a tragic accident here in IL where a school bus was caught between closely placed traffic lights in dense traffic and the back end was "taken away" by a train. There were some deaths (6)but if they had been in seat belts it would have been at least 4 times that number estimated. Buses get into different kinds of accidents than cars do, plus as stated the physics are different.
Many times it depends upon the route or speed of travel that the bus encounters in its daily cycle, if seat belts really are a plus or a negative.
In the Lake George accident, I think the really unforgiveable thing is that the captain was the only one on board and that there was NO crew. What if he had a stroke or a heart attack? We don't float ANYTHING with only one knowledgeable operator on board. They suspended his license- that is not a big punishment. The big punishment will come with the lawsuits.
There was an elderly lady on TV this morning who stated she and many others were thrown life vests almost immediately but that people were UNDERNEATH the flipped vessel. She said the entire thing was so fast that she does not remember any chair slipping and that she does not even know if she fell during the flip or swam out after. She was about 75 or 80 and one of the oldest ones onboard.
We have a lot of safety laws in the USA, but don't expect all places to abide. In other countries I have seen excursions that were so dangerous and everybody just went along like sheep.
You also need to take some personal responsibility in asking questions and scoping things out. For instance, I asked during a small tour boat to go see the manatees at the springs park just North of Orlando where her assistant was. I don't want to be on any vessel that I'll have to steer or run myself when the only operator is out cold or something.
She had one crew member who came on board upon pulling in the lines/leaving the dock.
And I thought about this issue big time when I took the tour of Lake Tahoe. It looked like the thing had too many people on it when they got "picked up" at the heritage house end.
I think of this all the time because of the Eastland in Chicago. The pictures were part of my archives at one time and it was a terrible, terrible disaster. It was supposed to have been a "fun" day for GE employees. I knew one of the men who spent that day fishing out bodies from below decks. He never forgot it and repeatedly told his story to me as a kid. The fatalities were in the hundreds and most of them were women and kids and the only cause was distribution of weight.
Oct 4th, 2005, 07:47 AM
#50
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I suspect that the 74 year old boat captain saw the boat wake coming too late and was caught in mid turn when the boat wake hit his vessel. Having alredy started to turn, the boat was already off balance and, when the wave hit, it tipped the boat and the passengers slid along the bench seating (which WAS bolted to the floor BTW) to the side of the boat. All this weight on that one side of the boat was all it took to complete the disaster.
It has now come to light that there should've been a second crewman aboard so I'm sure that the cruise company will be sued and lose. Perhaps a second crew member would've spotted the oncoming boatwake sooner and the small Ethan Allen would've been able to complete a turn to safely position her to take the wave bow or stern first.
Hindsight is golden but all this talk about forcing adults to wear life vest is IMHO simpleminded.
I do feel that the boat was perhaps a little overloaded and the idea that the average passenger weighs 150 lbs. is clearly outdated and should be revised.
BTW I'm familiar with Lake George and some of the lager tour boats are quite capable of putting out a very large wake. There are also many private boats on this 30 mile long lake and some of them are quite large as well. It is possible that the Ethan Allen was hit by a combination wave of considerable size.
Accidents do happen and I think that the omission of a second crew member with a second set of eyes was the fatal mistake in this case although it may have made no difference had that person not seen the boat wake coming sooner than the 74 year old captain.
It has now come to light that there should've been a second crewman aboard so I'm sure that the cruise company will be sued and lose. Perhaps a second crew member would've spotted the oncoming boatwake sooner and the small Ethan Allen would've been able to complete a turn to safely position her to take the wave bow or stern first.
Hindsight is golden but all this talk about forcing adults to wear life vest is IMHO simpleminded.
I do feel that the boat was perhaps a little overloaded and the idea that the average passenger weighs 150 lbs. is clearly outdated and should be revised.
BTW I'm familiar with Lake George and some of the lager tour boats are quite capable of putting out a very large wake. There are also many private boats on this 30 mile long lake and some of them are quite large as well. It is possible that the Ethan Allen was hit by a combination wave of considerable size.
Accidents do happen and I think that the omission of a second crew member with a second set of eyes was the fatal mistake in this case although it may have made no difference had that person not seen the boat wake coming sooner than the 74 year old captain.
Oct 4th, 2005, 08:45 AM
#51
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Question -- are the 150 pound passengers allowed to have a 25 pound wheelchair? Or is that 25 pounds to be deducted from their weight -- anyone with a wheelchair is only allowed to weigh 125 pounds?
Oct 4th, 2005, 09:52 AM
#52
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I don't believe that if there were more crew members on board, anything would have changed. Probably there would have been more deaths.
There were simply too many people on that boat. I worked for a boat manaufacturer several years ago, and our largest boat was 40'. 20 people were enough to crowd a 40' boat if they were all up on deck. What was that tour operator thinking when he/she booked that boat for almost 50 people?
There were simply too many people on that boat. I worked for a boat manaufacturer several years ago, and our largest boat was 40'. 20 people were enough to crowd a 40' boat if they were all up on deck. What was that tour operator thinking when he/she booked that boat for almost 50 people?
Oct 4th, 2005, 10:13 AM
#53
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Probably the tour organizer simply believed what the cruise boat operator was saying...that the Ethan Allen could carry up to 50 people. It would appear that the state of New York also believed that the boat was capable of that load as well or it wouldn't have been certified to carry that many.
Folks, sometimes a set of circumstances lines up and bad things happen...it is called AN ACCIDENT.
Folks, sometimes a set of circumstances lines up and bad things happen...it is called AN ACCIDENT.
Oct 4th, 2005, 10:30 AM
#54
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Concerning the 150 pound weight limit - this is simply unrealistic today. And it's not just a matter of overweight. Many people who weigh well more than that are not overweight - just bigger/taller. (Someone 6'3" and 150 pounds is SKINNY.)
FYI, elevator safety in NYC is also predicated on an average weight of 150 pounds. The difference is that the elevators won;t hold as many people as that weight allows. (The elevator in my apartment house is allowed to hold 12 people at 150 pounds each - or a total of 1800 pounds. Only it holds four comfortably and six if you all squish into the corners - there's no way you could ever get 12 people into it.)
It looks like the 150 should be revised based on the reality of the average size person - which would allow women of 125 and men of 175 - simply not realistic given people's average height.
FYI, elevator safety in NYC is also predicated on an average weight of 150 pounds. The difference is that the elevators won;t hold as many people as that weight allows. (The elevator in my apartment house is allowed to hold 12 people at 150 pounds each - or a total of 1800 pounds. Only it holds four comfortably and six if you all squish into the corners - there's no way you could ever get 12 people into it.)
It looks like the 150 should be revised based on the reality of the average size person - which would allow women of 125 and men of 175 - simply not realistic given people's average height.
Oct 4th, 2005, 05:27 PM
#55
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Having grown up in NYS, I have vacationed with family in Lake George several summers in a row in the past few years. Its a beautiful spot for a family vacation with kids. Lots of what we call "cheesy" kids stuff but they love it and its fun.
The minute I heard about this I wondered if the wake was indeed from the Mohican. I have been on the lake in a pontoon boat and the wake left by that vessel is deceptively large. It may not look like it in video but it tends to roll on and on and we usually tried to avoid it. But that is just my speculation.
I keep wondering what was different about this trip since they are saying that the safety record was a good one, the captain was well known, and experienced. I guess we wait for the investigation...
The minute I heard about this I wondered if the wake was indeed from the Mohican. I have been on the lake in a pontoon boat and the wake left by that vessel is deceptively large. It may not look like it in video but it tends to roll on and on and we usually tried to avoid it. But that is just my speculation.
I keep wondering what was different about this trip since they are saying that the safety record was a good one, the captain was well known, and experienced. I guess we wait for the investigation...
