A question about schools
Jun 11th, 2001, 06:33 AM
#61
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Yes Barb I believe we are in the same district and that district is pulling the wool over your eyes. Even look at the test scores that they love to quote. The district is typically 80%-ile when compared against everybody, but when compared to "like districts" (demographically), they are more like 45%-ile.
High standards? Ha! The instruction my daughters get nearly a full year behind our circle of family and friends in other areas. Second grade spelling word "the". What a joke. That is why we supplement, because we know if we ever leave the district they will need to be farther advanced than they are being taught at.
They waste money at record paces. What about paying Reeves and all his legal bills and settlements? What about always chasing the latest methods instead of sticking to what works. They experiement too much. I have attended school board meetings and was summarily dismissed at one for making comments regarding excessive field trips over classroom discussion. I cannot buy your prop 13 arguement because according to the school funding figures I last saw CA was in top 30% in $/student and South Dakota was almost last in $/student and 90%-ile in performance.
The unions and the district would never allow a 2-tier wage scale for tech vs non-tech teaching. Plus higher salaries do not automatically translate into higher performing teachers. Private schools generally pay far less than public schools for salaries, etc. yet consistently outperform publc schools.
I appreciate your home schooling comment (if you meant no condescension) and we struggle with it. I guess in some way we do it considering our supplementation.
High standards? Ha! The instruction my daughters get nearly a full year behind our circle of family and friends in other areas. Second grade spelling word "the". What a joke. That is why we supplement, because we know if we ever leave the district they will need to be farther advanced than they are being taught at.
They waste money at record paces. What about paying Reeves and all his legal bills and settlements? What about always chasing the latest methods instead of sticking to what works. They experiement too much. I have attended school board meetings and was summarily dismissed at one for making comments regarding excessive field trips over classroom discussion. I cannot buy your prop 13 arguement because according to the school funding figures I last saw CA was in top 30% in $/student and South Dakota was almost last in $/student and 90%-ile in performance.
The unions and the district would never allow a 2-tier wage scale for tech vs non-tech teaching. Plus higher salaries do not automatically translate into higher performing teachers. Private schools generally pay far less than public schools for salaries, etc. yet consistently outperform publc schools.
I appreciate your home schooling comment (if you meant no condescension) and we struggle with it. I guess in some way we do it considering our supplementation.
Jun 11th, 2001, 06:40 AM
#62
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Mr. Eduation certainly has a problem with the concept of federalism and decentralism. The looting of certain school districts by certain other school districts is UnConstitutional by the standards I set back in the late 1780s. However, the Left in America has scrapped my Constitution and replaced it with a dictatorship of the Courts.
Jun 11th, 2001, 06:50 AM
#63
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1. Turn off the TV.
2. Tell the principal, the teachers, the school board that it's time to raise the bar, and tell the students that self-esteem is earned and you aren't entitled to it if you aren't doing your best. Tell them both the country can't afford creativity without competence.
3. Pay the teachers more than the bureaucrats.
4. Restore top priority to science and literacy; restore arts and music; and leave faith-based instruction to faith-based institutions.
5. Quit whining about standardized tests -- anything that conveys the idea that you are in school to learn to measure up to someone else's expectations is better preparation for real life than aren't-I-wonderful ungradable projects.
6. Be as proud of your good students -- even if they wear glasses and can't fight their way out of a paper bag -- as you are of your good athletes. We need both, and even your best athletes may never make the minor leagues.
7. Ask help from minority leaders toward putting a much higher value on doing well in school and turning around the peer pressure not to succeed too well in school.
8. Quit worrying about the tax bite. Real estate values go up where schools are good. And remember that kid who can't spell "esteem" may someday be taking care of you in the Home or building a defense missile.
2. Tell the principal, the teachers, the school board that it's time to raise the bar, and tell the students that self-esteem is earned and you aren't entitled to it if you aren't doing your best. Tell them both the country can't afford creativity without competence.
3. Pay the teachers more than the bureaucrats.
4. Restore top priority to science and literacy; restore arts and music; and leave faith-based instruction to faith-based institutions.
5. Quit whining about standardized tests -- anything that conveys the idea that you are in school to learn to measure up to someone else's expectations is better preparation for real life than aren't-I-wonderful ungradable projects.
6. Be as proud of your good students -- even if they wear glasses and can't fight their way out of a paper bag -- as you are of your good athletes. We need both, and even your best athletes may never make the minor leagues.
7. Ask help from minority leaders toward putting a much higher value on doing well in school and turning around the peer pressure not to succeed too well in school.
8. Quit worrying about the tax bite. Real estate values go up where schools are good. And remember that kid who can't spell "esteem" may someday be taking care of you in the Home or building a defense missile.
Jun 11th, 2001, 07:42 AM
#64
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To make this more travel related, as I do see college aged students every day that have gotten their primary and secondary educations in many different countries and on three other continents-let me add my two cents. The U.S. does a better job of educating than "tests" show or that public opinion reflects.
It is such a complex multi-cultural country that just as this thread clearly shows, what is GOOD education for some is not GOOD education for others. If you want the result of everyone speaking, spelling, reading, writing and having basic math abilities etc. all in a standardized and exact manner, then many other countries do a better job. Some countries consider a person educated correctly as soon as they have skills toward any marketable field. In any republic the citizens need the ability to think logically and independently. The children also need a family unit where intellectual and investigating activity, like travel, is role modeled. No school can fix the society's ills. Some Chicago teachers are saints and work miracles. Kids have to have a nuturing home life first. I think this is gotten better in my life time, in the area that I have observed.
fyi is correct about some administrations, and that throwing money at a problem often makes it even worse. Right now in Chicago we are losing an administration that was terrific in cleaning up the act and I sure hope they don't go back to the old routine of dining on $50 shrimp luncheons and spending another fortune on another "study" down on Pershing Rd. The poster who wrote of the 3 or 4 year cycles of theory change is also so correct. Lots of good points have been made about what could be improved. BUT we turn out kids who can think, and sometimes very originally. This is important.
You have choices here in the USA. You can even educate your children at home. (And I have seen very mixed results with this.) What I do see in the foreign students is mixed also. I also have viewed in the last ten years a certain number of non-North American origin students who are emotionally and intellectually stunted by heavily rote and structured state schools. In other words they were taught to think "right" more than they were taught to think.
IMHO and because of what I see in my area, I do NOT want vouchers. I am totally for inclusion and that means NOT calling a program bilingual when the entire entity is in Spanish- and you have artificially segregated the
student population. I would love to see teachers get more respect for what they do and I would like NOT to hear about how they have earned it. Our teachers are well paid for the time that they are actually working and for the levels of education they have attained. Many fields have to constantly school themselves and don't have a summer/inservice etc. for it either. But also the parents can not demand that the teachers and school system fix all the childrens' problems
which are complex in both economics and cultural reality. If kids see flippant use of guns and drugs at home, a tv is going during all waking hours, and/or there is constant negative receptability by the adult toward the child, how can any school system turn it all around. I have always lived in very good school districts and worked that they stayed that way. One was quite "poor." I've seen in my long life in library work, that the Midwest has many absolutely terrific schools who graduate well rounded and healthy American citizens.
It is such a complex multi-cultural country that just as this thread clearly shows, what is GOOD education for some is not GOOD education for others. If you want the result of everyone speaking, spelling, reading, writing and having basic math abilities etc. all in a standardized and exact manner, then many other countries do a better job. Some countries consider a person educated correctly as soon as they have skills toward any marketable field. In any republic the citizens need the ability to think logically and independently. The children also need a family unit where intellectual and investigating activity, like travel, is role modeled. No school can fix the society's ills. Some Chicago teachers are saints and work miracles. Kids have to have a nuturing home life first. I think this is gotten better in my life time, in the area that I have observed.
fyi is correct about some administrations, and that throwing money at a problem often makes it even worse. Right now in Chicago we are losing an administration that was terrific in cleaning up the act and I sure hope they don't go back to the old routine of dining on $50 shrimp luncheons and spending another fortune on another "study" down on Pershing Rd. The poster who wrote of the 3 or 4 year cycles of theory change is also so correct. Lots of good points have been made about what could be improved. BUT we turn out kids who can think, and sometimes very originally. This is important.
You have choices here in the USA. You can even educate your children at home. (And I have seen very mixed results with this.) What I do see in the foreign students is mixed also. I also have viewed in the last ten years a certain number of non-North American origin students who are emotionally and intellectually stunted by heavily rote and structured state schools. In other words they were taught to think "right" more than they were taught to think.
IMHO and because of what I see in my area, I do NOT want vouchers. I am totally for inclusion and that means NOT calling a program bilingual when the entire entity is in Spanish- and you have artificially segregated the
student population. I would love to see teachers get more respect for what they do and I would like NOT to hear about how they have earned it. Our teachers are well paid for the time that they are actually working and for the levels of education they have attained. Many fields have to constantly school themselves and don't have a summer/inservice etc. for it either. But also the parents can not demand that the teachers and school system fix all the childrens' problems
which are complex in both economics and cultural reality. If kids see flippant use of guns and drugs at home, a tv is going during all waking hours, and/or there is constant negative receptability by the adult toward the child, how can any school system turn it all around. I have always lived in very good school districts and worked that they stayed that way. One was quite "poor." I've seen in my long life in library work, that the Midwest has many absolutely terrific schools who graduate well rounded and healthy American citizens.
Jun 11th, 2001, 08:56 AM
#65
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Joe: Sorry, but there is no wool being pulled over my eyes. I've been involved closely with the District for the last 13 years, as long as I've had children in school here. I've already been through elementary school 3 times. You are incorrect regarding funding per student. The 2000 figures put California 43rd or 44th out of 50 states, depending on what index you use. Neither is good. New figures will be out in July. I disagree that private schools outperform public schools. To even try to campare them is comparing apples and oranges. Private schools only take the kids they want, therefore there are no problem kids, no expense of Special Education, they are not required to follow the Education Code, the schools are smaller, and the classes are smaller. Our District tries to stay on the cutting edge of new methods. I agree with you about the spelling program, but I know that considerable research goes into any change. Unfortunately, you don't always know how it will work until you try. I would agree with you about field trips too - that only applies to elementary schools, though. I did not intend to suggest a two-tier salary scale, I think all teachers should be paid much more. Remember, the teachers who are at the very top of the scale all have masters degrees, some have PhDs. You don't get to the very top just by teaching for twenty years. I do strongly believe that teaching rarely attracts the very best academically. As I have said previously, great academics do not guarantee ability to teach, but wouldn't you like your kids to be taught in high school by someone who really knows what they're talking about? Assume you did really well in your undergraduate degree and postgraduate degree, now you can choose either to teach or take a job which will have a much higher starting salary-even up to, or above, $100,000.00. What would you do? Well, most choose the higher paying opportunity. This is not to say that we should have starting pay for teachers be $100,000.00, but we have to close the gap.
Jun 11th, 2001, 09:01 AM
#66
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Dear Joe,
No, I don't want to "dump" my kids so I can make money. I'm a stay at home mom. Go pick on someone else.
For older children, I think a longer school day would be a good idea. But that would cut into their Nintendo time and opportunities to hang out smoking at 7-11.
A longer school day will never happen, though, so don't worry.
No, I don't want to "dump" my kids so I can make money. I'm a stay at home mom. Go pick on someone else.
For older children, I think a longer school day would be a good idea. But that would cut into their Nintendo time and opportunities to hang out smoking at 7-11.
A longer school day will never happen, though, so don't worry.
Jun 11th, 2001, 09:42 AM
#67
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Why did this issue of educating children rouse so many extreme reactions and ideas? This thread did raise a few interesting things, but it kept getting mired in anecdotes and prejudice. The only issue all of you seem to agree on is education is not the U.S.'s top priority. And most of you seem suspicious of schools and teachers. The few homeschoolers come off as overbearing and arrogant, as though only they can teach. There are one or two as usual favoring vouchers ... the ultimate cop. For a few others it seems like school is only another way to misuse your precious taxes. Did anyone actually say education ought to get as much money as we can possibly force into it ... believing that the investment will always pay us back? This conversation is, in a word, depressing. Why don't you just let this one go!! Ciao
Jun 11th, 2001, 11:56 AM
#68
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Cindy,
I apologize about my assumptions. I totally disagree with you about longer school hours, extra-cirriculars would suffer.
Barb,
I can't argue with rhetoric, but thanks for keeping it civil. BTW, both of my daughters have substitutes today so that the teachers can do grading. What a waste of money! I'd take an experienced teacher with a BA over a newby with a PhD or Master anyday. Teacher's salaries are quite ample, but I'd raise them in a heartbeat if I could dump 80% of the bureaucracy.
I apologize about my assumptions. I totally disagree with you about longer school hours, extra-cirriculars would suffer.
Barb,
I can't argue with rhetoric, but thanks for keeping it civil. BTW, both of my daughters have substitutes today so that the teachers can do grading. What a waste of money! I'd take an experienced teacher with a BA over a newby with a PhD or Master anyday. Teacher's salaries are quite ample, but I'd raise them in a heartbeat if I could dump 80% of the bureaucracy.
Jun 11th, 2001, 05:01 PM
#69
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I have been teaching in the New York City public schools for the past two years. I have a master's degree and am certified. Currently, we have not reached agreement on a new teacher's contract since November. Guiliani seems to believe teachers don't deserve a fair raise. It's been interesting to read all of the posts. To those of you who want to extend the school day - for every period we teach lessons need to be prepared. No - our school day does not end at 3:00 like so many people believe. Extending the day will also increase the time spent at home preparing lessons. Extending the school day is not going to help some of the kids. Read to your kids every day one on one and do homework will them -that will help. Another hour in a class of 25 other students just doesn't help some kids. Also, extending the school year - teaching is physically and mentally exhausting. If you think there is a teacher shortage now with unqualified teachers just try and make the school year longer. Teachers need to be paid comparable to other professions. Teaching is a profession not just a job. I know of no other profession that requires a masters degree yet pays $36,000 a year (in New York City where there is a high cost of living). I know I could not raise a family on my salary alone. Respect teachers and pay them accordingly and maybe the teacher shortage will not worsen - especially in the most needed areas.
