Please excuse ... of course I meant to say that using the SAT might NOT be your strongest suit ... my two fingers betrayed me. gt; Ciao

To L - Actually, I agree with pretty much everything you said... I mentioned DC schools because you wrote that you see problems there. I just don't think there's any one group to point a finger at: faculty, administration, politicians. You're absolutely right about both political attitude and lack of funding.

I was responding to "getreal"...

"The perfect school for most is the home school."

Wow, now that's saying something, particularly since so few kids have a parent at home who could home school them. I'm sure that home schooling works for some people, maybe many people. Who knows? But I'm very well educated, and I can't imagine home schooling my kids. There's lots of things I just don't know or do well, like explaining geometry, for instance. Sure, I could learn, but who would cook, clean and run the house if I were brushing up on math, science and social studies all the time. For me, I'm hoping that having the kids go to a decent school and turning off the TV will do the trick.

Sorry, but need to add one more thing about our political situation ... which I hope everyone recognizes as unique (to say the least). Our local elected leaders are divided. Our board of education (school Board members) is not free to run the schools ... and they have been ineffectual (although have been the highest paid board members in the entire US). Our school management was taken over by an outside body. Our city has been run in recent years but a control board of outside poeple (who controlled the mayor). Our mayors ... well I'll leave that one alone. At least we elect them now ... instead of Presidential appointment when I first came to DC. Our locally enacted laws all have to be confirmed by both houses of Congress, or they cannot go into effect. Our budgets have to be approved by both houses of Congress ... we even have our own subcommittees in Congress. How many cities can say that? Congressmen are free to dictate to our city ... even to the point of threatening to withold our funds if we do not give our Metro stations the name they prefer. We depend on a so-called "Federal payment" because most of the valuable land cannot be taxed ... the Fed. Gov't. sits on it, and nobody taxes that guy! We have more demonstrations that anyone, and none has anything to do with DC, but we must handle them and pay for them. And we cannot get reimbursed for that until the US park Service tell us what we're getting. If we vote on a measure unpopular to the President, he uses Justice to stop us through court challenge. Clinton did this constantly. If Congress disagrees with an initiative on our local ballot, we are not permitted to even count the votes for that. We have no voting rep in either House of Congress ... we have taxation without representation (Bush made sure he took off his DC plates that have this motto on it off his limos). We pay the highest Federal taxes per capita of any "state" but have no vote in Congress. We are 650,000 people, larger than some states. We have a mess ... and no wonder our school system is messed up. What could be normal in this abnormal sitaution? But don't get me started!! Ciao

On the contrary, for the last forty years governments (local, county, state & national) have been tossing money at education like drunken sailors at a strip joint. Those are the facts though the Education Lobby propagandize to the contrary. The results of pouring money at public education have been dismal. If you love your kids, pull them out of the failed public schools.

Geez, no wonder that UK 11 year old wants a school like the ones on tv. REAL US schools and their politics stink!

The TRUTH is once a system that works is in place, the muddle-muckers want to change the structure for an "experimental prototype program that has been proven at a Key-Lighthouse-Superhuman school in a Euro-Slavic-Asian country that no one has heard about. Takes about 3 years to convince a rotating school board to bite into one of these, and by the time it is instituted, the experimental programs have been proven bust. TIME TO INTRODUCE A NEW PROGRAM!!!

Rants to continue...

Okay, Frank, I think I see where you're going with this ... lower property taxes (lets divert it to more trash collection and leaf pick-up) ... close down those crummy, non-performing things called "public school" (use the land for more rental condos) ... lets see, what am I forgetting ... oh, yes, vouchers ... and I see the word "parochial" ... am I getting the picture? Lets see, W. will give your kid $1500-$2000, maybe (you probably have none) to shop for that better school ... gosh, that amount will go a long way. By the way, he's not funding every kid to move ... only a tiny percentage. But you know what you're facing: a survey of the so-called better private schools in our metro area turned up this starting admission: NO OPENINGS. Nobody can accommodate the voucher kids ... no room. And $1500 is no inducement to build more. So, you pull them out of public school, reduce the money the school gets, end up teaching them at home, or ... well, Frank, complete the picture for me, please. And eventually they get accepted at Harvard. By the way, take a close look at the education tuition credits in Bush's tax cut ... they kinda fade away in a few years. Well, we all knew that, didn't we ... afterall, who is this cut for anyway? Frank, better rethink it, guy. Your way isn't going to fly. Ciao

Help ... isn't somebody gonna help me rebut there buttskies? Killjoy ... IF you knew anything about school boards you'd know they are the most conservative bunch of folks you're ever likely to encounter. To think that a school board would go for the change scenario you're thinking of is not to think at all. And to suggest that these folks rotate ... heck, election for life is more like it. In fact the real issue is how do you keep board setting policy and not micro-managing superintendents and other school administrators. Ideas just like the voucher, no legs, none at all. Ciao.

Dear L,
Though you did not respond to what I actually wrote (40 years of tossing money at education...), you have interesting thoughts which I'd like to respond. First, I am against vouchers. Once a private school accepts a kid with vouchers, the government will eventually get a say in how the school is run. Second, I do not want tax money diverted to programs that I might use (you imply trash and leaf pick-up) because I don't use them. I pay a private trash man, Frank of DEW, to pick up my trash. I run over my leaves in fall with my 52" Murray lawnmower so I am a self-contained leaf service. Third, as a Greenie of the Right, I am against more rental condos built anywhere. In my rural Chesapeake Maryland county, I have fought developers tooth-and-nail to keep the land unspoiled, unfortunately with little success as developers have bought both political parties in Queen Anne's County. Fourth, I would never recommend Harvard to any kids who wanted a balanced education. The intolerant Left rules the roost at Harvard and very little dissent is allowed. Conservative speakers are regularly shouted down by "liberal" students at Harvard. Fifth, my wife is homeschooling my kids so I am confident my way is "going to fly." Thanks for the debate, L. You are a spirited gal and probably lovely to look at too. Buona sera.

Phew! Thanks everyone, I thought I might get thrown out of the forum for asking such a non-travel question. I have read them all with interest. Metal and gun detectors!! I'm glad it hasn't come to that here. Do you think that a lot of the problem starts with the loss and lack of respect our children are having for "the system", adults in general and anyone in authority? So many of the "hardcore" troublemakers seem to suffer from the "I-know-my-rights" syndrome and rebel against everything. Our children moan about wearing school uniforms, but quite often, when they have taken a vote on it, the majority want to keep them. It brings everyone to a similar level, keeps the school looking (reasonably) smartly turned out and saves their own clothes for out of school time. I could go on, but don't want to soap box you with trying to understand the english school system (we won't even go into the public/private school systems, I withdrew our daughter from one) I'll keep reading your replies though, it certainly seems to be a thread that sparked a few! Thanks, Esme

Oh! By the way, on TV here we have a couple of programmes based on british schools (Grange Hill and Byker Grove) which pride themselves on being a true reflection of our school life, the kids love them as they relate to all the kids on them and their problems - drugs, exam stress, teenage pregnancy and relationship problems. Perhaps you can get them over there somehow - I enjoy watching them sometimes, just to keep up to date with the kids!

Esme,
I can't believe that all the schools are as above.
The schools in my town are rated one of the best in the state. The facilities are older, but maintained. The kids get relatively up to date books. There are sports programs for all. There are afterschool activities that a lot of the kids participate in.
No metal detectors. We had a "computer scare" where someone e-mailed something inappropriate a few years ago, but the local police, DARE officer, principal, teachers all got together with the students to track down the culprit. (I believe it was someone from another state trying to get into the system to muck things up.)
My kids started in this school system. Now they are in a Catholic school program so that they can get some religious education and values along with the academics. In fact, there are a number of UK families who are in the US for a few years that have joined our school for a good education. The parochial schools give a good qualilty education and teach the VALULES and RESPECT that is often lacking in public schools these days. They have uniforms. They have rules which the children must adhere to.

I recall years ago, when growing up and going through both the Catholic and public school systems, that we had a "dress code" in our public high school. Boys had to wear a shirt and tie and nice pants, girls had to wear skirts/dresses that had to be a certain length. The year I graduated, they did away with the dress code. I thought it was a bummer at the time, since the incoming class of girls were allowed to wear slacks (jeans were not allowed at the time by anyone). However, I also recall that there were few "incidents" by the children. The "dress code" nowadays in our school is a tee shirt that doesn't have inappropriate pictures/words on it and no hat.
Our parochial school principal allows the children to wear their choice of clothes one day a month. She has said that during that one day, you can see a change in the children. On days with a uniform, the children understand that they have to behave a certain way. On the days when they "dress down," while the rules haven't changed, the children do -- they are a bit noisier when walking through the halls, for example.

Thanks for the interesting information, Frank ... I'm happy to know my impressions were incorrect. But I must take exception on one point - you wouldn't find me to be an interesting gal ... LOL ... L/Leone is not a female name. It's because I'm a Leo - and August 8. Yep, I've got one coming up in the not too distant future (sort of like the anniversary for IRS, no celebration is planned). Actually, you're not the first to mistake me for a woman (I do take it as a compliment) ... my partner tells me it's just my soft side coming out, and she says it's about time. Anyway, have a good day. Ciao

L, I'll now have to committ hari-kari for thinking you a girl. What the hell is this_madame Butterfly.

There are as many realities of school in America as there are sizes of community. Boston Public isn't far off for some urban areas, but at the other end of the spectrum are small schools in very non-diverse rural areas. And there's everything in between.

But there are some constants. The atmosphere is education is nothing short of desperate, and there's plenty of blame to go around. At the very top is a basic anti-intellectualism and dislike of academic achievement -- America has never quite managed to reconcile its democratic ideals of everyone-equal with scholarship. The result is that we can cope with athletic or business competition, but the idea of competition for academic excellence is considered elitist and anathema to the American way of life. Bright kids are forced -- both by peer pressure and by school administrators -- to hide their abilities unless they want to be excluded and ridiculed as nerds. This pressure is a large part of why some minorities have yet to catch up.

Another issue is the priority given to bureaucracy and ancillary services over education -- compared to schools of a generation or two ago, we have fewer teachers per 100 students but many more administrators, counselors, heads of athletics, etc. etc. etc.

Add to that a deeply adversarial relationship between teachers who have evolved an "I'm the expert; I know more about your child than you do; let me be the boss; don't tell me what to do" attitude over the years, versus parents who have evolved an attitude either of "fix my kid, I pay you to make him smart; he shouldn't have to do homework or compete with others; if he fails, it's your fault." Once upon a time, the idea was that parent and teacher were a team who joined together to foster learning in the children. Not now.

If kids have a lack of respect for people or learning, it's only because they're reflecting what they see among parents, teachers, and administrators -- who do not respect each other, who fight over external political issues in school board meetings, and who are more worried about territory and/or finances than whether we're trashing our future brain resources.

Has nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative -- they both think academics are stupid (read Frank's comment about Harvard) and they both decline to act at the highest and broadest levels to salvage American education. At a result, what used to be the showcase educational system for the world is now a sitcom travesty and an embarrassment for such a wealthy country.

I don't see why it ought to be so difficult to fix education in the United States. We only need two things: the desire and the funding.

Here's what I'd do. First, education needs to take place year round. No long summer break where kids watch TV, play Nintendo, don't read, and forget most of what they learned.

Second, the school day needs to be extended. I'd say kids ought to be in school from third grade up from about 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. That would allow ample time for PE, art, music and of course, the three Rs. It would help working parents and eliminate the unfortunate things kids do when they have too much unsupervised time on their hands.

Finally, I think each school's parents ought to vote on whether there will be a school uniform. Majority rules. I, for one, would vote yes in a heartbeat.

Homeschooling - gee, I teach 4 & 5 year olds in a Bible class on Wednesday night. In my class, I have 2 boys already diagnosed as ADHD and on medicine. I also have another boy who is homeschooled. I'll take the boys on Ritalyn ANY DAY AND TWICE ON SATURDAY as opposed to the child who is homeschooled. He has NO CONCEPT how to behave in a group environment (12 children). Most homeschool children I've run across have been incredibly wierd.

With that, my child attends a public school in Alabama. We are so horrible, she actually won the President's Award for Educational Excellence this year. (By the way, I'm being sarcastic when I say "horrible.")(My niece in a northeastern state made the honor roll in high school and promptly flunked out in college.)

Esme, another lesson needs to be taught here. Please find the programs that show how they do all the stuff to make things look real on camera. It's really fascinating, and an excellent way to make sure your daughter realizes that what you see on TV IS NOT REAL!

No, don't do anything rash, Frank ... on this site one has unlimited chances ... the fact that I'm still posting here is the best evidence I can offer. And believe me, you are far from the first to do the gender thing. Ciao

Thanks for the try, L, but I'll give the wife and kids a kiss goodbye and drop myself off the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. Farewell all.

Teech makes some very good points. I also blame the PARENTS to a great extent for our poor education system. Too many are hands-off and, just because they pay property tax (unlike in Europe, Esme, most pre-college education funding comes from local/county property taxes), expect the teachers to make geniuses out of their little sweeps. Parents, if you don't have any intellectual curiosity and if you never crack a book, you're kids will follow your example and be just as intellectually dormant.