Would you like to comment on the London riots on Saturday, 8/6/11
Aug 8th, 2011, 05:57 AM
#22
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Another thread mostly by people who have not lived it (rioting) at all, other than seeing it on the news. With the kinds of comments I see about it- same as could have been written in 1968.
"White flight" indeed. How insolated and ancient a description. You blame the white for leaving and then judge immigrants "wise" for not moving there where they can afford to live and go to work? What a dichotomy. Maybe they should stay and get robbed of $900 and beaten up just like my Dad has at 92. That was just last month. In Chicago, where he has lived for 63 of those 92 years and refuses to leave his home.
Yes, jobs. Never enough jobs- regardless of the upbringing or training levels. Human jobs that existed for millenium just vanishing within 50 or 100 years??? And you think everyone is going to make nice-nice with the marketing and view of media the poorest "see" when they are in a place where social life ist standing on corners for up to 10 hours a day or night for most of their lives?
Honestly, we have had this kind of thing in Chicago nearly every summer to some extent somewhere. And in areas of wide geographic spans (maybe 2 or 3 square miles) about every 10 years. A few in my youth, nearly leveled a couple of huge quadrants of the city. And in one that was my famiy's home and relative's butcher shop- many of the "blocks"- even today-are rubble. The worst things I have witnessed in my life, have been during a riot.
There are lots of books and research on this. And some of it is absolutely race connected, as well. Different cultural styles of reaction, as well.
This is part of the culture accepted within the socio-economic reality of poor and idle groups. Very accepted by the majority. The majority that knows that it is the only way to "get" what they see others have and they want.
I do agree that after it is over, and the rioters of every age and level in the neighborhood now realize that they have no grocery store, no ice cream shop, no barber, no pawn shop, no second hand replay show, no liquor or smokes store, no currency exchange etc. etc.- they always act surprised and shocked that all is not replaced within a short time, like in a cartoon.
But it's "ok" because it isn't where the tourist go or where you need to live? So don't you be afraid.
"White flight" indeed. How insolated and ancient a description. You blame the white for leaving and then judge immigrants "wise" for not moving there where they can afford to live and go to work? What a dichotomy. Maybe they should stay and get robbed of $900 and beaten up just like my Dad has at 92. That was just last month. In Chicago, where he has lived for 63 of those 92 years and refuses to leave his home.
Yes, jobs. Never enough jobs- regardless of the upbringing or training levels. Human jobs that existed for millenium just vanishing within 50 or 100 years??? And you think everyone is going to make nice-nice with the marketing and view of media the poorest "see" when they are in a place where social life ist standing on corners for up to 10 hours a day or night for most of their lives?
Honestly, we have had this kind of thing in Chicago nearly every summer to some extent somewhere. And in areas of wide geographic spans (maybe 2 or 3 square miles) about every 10 years. A few in my youth, nearly leveled a couple of huge quadrants of the city. And in one that was my famiy's home and relative's butcher shop- many of the "blocks"- even today-are rubble. The worst things I have witnessed in my life, have been during a riot.
There are lots of books and research on this. And some of it is absolutely race connected, as well. Different cultural styles of reaction, as well.
This is part of the culture accepted within the socio-economic reality of poor and idle groups. Very accepted by the majority. The majority that knows that it is the only way to "get" what they see others have and they want.
I do agree that after it is over, and the rioters of every age and level in the neighborhood now realize that they have no grocery store, no ice cream shop, no barber, no pawn shop, no second hand replay show, no liquor or smokes store, no currency exchange etc. etc.- they always act surprised and shocked that all is not replaced within a short time, like in a cartoon.
But it's "ok" because it isn't where the tourist go or where you need to live? So don't you be afraid.
Aug 8th, 2011, 07:05 AM
#23
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When one person commits a crime, like stealing, it is absolutely appropriate to talk about personal responsibility and poor decision making and mete out punishment. (I would hope that the punishment would consider the criminal's background and aim for rehabilitation, but that's a different discussion.)
When an entire neighborhood goes into the street to loot and set fire to stuff, it is a social problem that needs to be addressed. The peaceful, law-abiding citizens of that neighborhood will suffer, society as a whole will suffer, and social costs will rise if you merely punish those whom you can catch and verbally condemn the rest.
OK, these youths are angry. That isn't an excuse, but it may be an explanation that could prove useful in crafting a response. I am frustrated when all efforts to explain such an event are called "excuses"--that is head in the sand behavior.
When an entire neighborhood goes into the street to loot and set fire to stuff, it is a social problem that needs to be addressed. The peaceful, law-abiding citizens of that neighborhood will suffer, society as a whole will suffer, and social costs will rise if you merely punish those whom you can catch and verbally condemn the rest.
OK, these youths are angry. That isn't an excuse, but it may be an explanation that could prove useful in crafting a response. I am frustrated when all efforts to explain such an event are called "excuses"--that is head in the sand behavior.
Aug 8th, 2011, 08:03 AM
#25
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Aug 8th, 2011, 08:15 AM
#26
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"When an entire neighborhood goes into the street to loot and set fire to stuff, it is a social problem that needs to be addressed. The peaceful, law-abiding citizens of that neighborhood will suffer"
Isn't that contradictory? If a whole neighbourhood goes into the street to loot etc clearly there cannot be any peaceful, law-abiding citizens.
Looking at the current pictures it seems most of the "rioting" is just petty vandalism. It's this season's "activity".
Isn't that contradictory? If a whole neighbourhood goes into the street to loot etc clearly there cannot be any peaceful, law-abiding citizens.
Looking at the current pictures it seems most of the "rioting" is just petty vandalism. It's this season's "activity".
Aug 8th, 2011, 08:22 AM
#27
<<Looking at the current pictures it seems most of the "rioting" is just petty vandalism. It's this season's "activity".>>
I take it you did not major in sociology in college.
Pretty easy to chalk it up to vandals and "criminal underclass scumbags."
I take it you did not major in sociology in college.
Pretty easy to chalk it up to vandals and "criminal underclass scumbags."
Aug 8th, 2011, 08:29 AM
#28
When a person joins a mob to loot and burn it is absolutely appropriate to talk about personal responsibility <s>and poor decision making</s> and mete out punishment.
I'd rather not talk about poor decision making. That kind of discussion is one that might involve a mother saying "Trevor is a good boy, he just made a bad decision", when in fact Travor is a bad boy.
Actually, I'd rather not talk about the (lack of) personal responsibility of those involved either. A better discussion would be about their criminal responsibility and meting out punishment.
I'd rather not talk about poor decision making. That kind of discussion is one that might involve a mother saying "Trevor is a good boy, he just made a bad decision", when in fact Travor is a bad boy.
Actually, I'd rather not talk about the (lack of) personal responsibility of those involved either. A better discussion would be about their criminal responsibility and meting out punishment.
Aug 8th, 2011, 08:37 AM
#30
<<When a person joins a mob to loot and burn it is absolutely appropriate to talk about personal responsibility and poor decision making and mete out punishment.>>
I agree that, to the extent it is practicable, those who engage in looting and burning should be charged and punished if found guilty. However, it would serve society well to go beyond just trying to jail the participants and look to the causes of the rioting and try to address those issues.
I agree that, to the extent it is practicable, those who engage in looting and burning should be charged and punished if found guilty. However, it would serve society well to go beyond just trying to jail the participants and look to the causes of the rioting and try to address those issues.
Aug 8th, 2011, 09:12 AM
#31
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<< Pretty easy to chalk it up to vandals and "criminal underclass scumbags." >>
Given it's happened in several areas totally unrelated to the original incident it's clear that most of the incidents are copy-cats creating trouble for the specific purpose of creating trouble.
And most of the original incidents were more to do with obtaining big-screen TVs at a highly discounted rate than protesting against the police / The Man.
The only people who have been hurt by these incidents are other locals - some of whom were burnt out of their homes.
Given it's happened in several areas totally unrelated to the original incident it's clear that most of the incidents are copy-cats creating trouble for the specific purpose of creating trouble.
And most of the original incidents were more to do with obtaining big-screen TVs at a highly discounted rate than protesting against the police / The Man.
The only people who have been hurt by these incidents are other locals - some of whom were burnt out of their homes.
Aug 8th, 2011, 09:42 AM
#32
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Neither the unemployement arguement or poor relations with the police really wash this time round.
There have been job losses in many places - London is probably one of the better places to be looking in tough times. Also the gang mentality prevelent in areas such as this doesn't really speak to me of anger and anarchy in protest at lack of prospects - there is a culture of existing by nefarious means and seeing that as something worthy of respect and admiration. Very little sense of foiled or unmet aspirations.
Also, we are led to believe that considerable time and expense has been spent on improving community relations with the police since the Broadwater farm riots. Yet many of the interviews with locals yesterday seemed to focus solely on the importance of the police engaging with 'yoof' and showing 'respect' . The riot was justified by virtue of the fact that the police had not provided answers to the communities questions re the shooting (despite the fact that the ongoing investigation might preclude that, and not withstanding the above observations that early briefings tend to be inaccurate or deliberately economical with the truth.)
People have lost their homes, businesses and cars at the hands of their own neighbours. What has really been achieved?
There have been job losses in many places - London is probably one of the better places to be looking in tough times. Also the gang mentality prevelent in areas such as this doesn't really speak to me of anger and anarchy in protest at lack of prospects - there is a culture of existing by nefarious means and seeing that as something worthy of respect and admiration. Very little sense of foiled or unmet aspirations.
Also, we are led to believe that considerable time and expense has been spent on improving community relations with the police since the Broadwater farm riots. Yet many of the interviews with locals yesterday seemed to focus solely on the importance of the police engaging with 'yoof' and showing 'respect' . The riot was justified by virtue of the fact that the police had not provided answers to the communities questions re the shooting (despite the fact that the ongoing investigation might preclude that, and not withstanding the above observations that early briefings tend to be inaccurate or deliberately economical with the truth.)
People have lost their homes, businesses and cars at the hands of their own neighbours. What has really been achieved?
Aug 8th, 2011, 09:53 AM
#35
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tom42, <I agree that, to the extent it is practicable, those who engage in looting and burning should be charged and punished if found guilty. However, it would serve society well to go beyond just trying to jail the participants and look to the causes of the rioting and try to address those issues.>
My point exactly, only much better said. Thanks.
My point exactly, only much better said. Thanks.
Aug 8th, 2011, 11:46 AM
#37
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"Riots spread to new areas of London Monday in a third night of violence as hooded youths torched cars and buildings, hurled missiles at police and looted shops, in the worst unrest in the British capital for decades."
Home Secretary Theresa May, who cut short her holiday to take charge of the government response to the riots, said arrests had climbed to 215 and 27 people had been charged.
"The violence we've seen, the looting we've seen, the thuggery we've seen, this is sheer criminality ... These people will be brought to justice. They will be made to face the consequences of their actions," she said.
The mayhem has so far been centered mainly in multi-ethnic, poorer parts of London, only a few miles from the Olympic park that will welcome millions of visitors in less than a year.
http://news.yahoo.com/more-violence-...003854640.html
Home Secretary Theresa May, who cut short her holiday to take charge of the government response to the riots, said arrests had climbed to 215 and 27 people had been charged.
"The violence we've seen, the looting we've seen, the thuggery we've seen, this is sheer criminality ... These people will be brought to justice. They will be made to face the consequences of their actions," she said.
The mayhem has so far been centered mainly in multi-ethnic, poorer parts of London, only a few miles from the Olympic park that will welcome millions of visitors in less than a year.
http://news.yahoo.com/more-violence-...003854640.html
Aug 8th, 2011, 12:17 PM
#38
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Paint it how you may but something is rotten in Tottenham and we're getting a good whiff of it over here. Easy to call them thugs, oportunists, etc but at the core something is wrong where a part of society feels marginalized and spat upon - thus the pent up anger that at times boils over.
Home Secrectary May should use both the stick and the carrot IMO if she really wants to diffuse future eruptions in an area I believe is not far from the 2012 Olympic Stadium site.
Or did the Tottenham Hotspurs just get too hot>
Home Secrectary May should use both the stick and the carrot IMO if she really wants to diffuse future eruptions in an area I believe is not far from the 2012 Olympic Stadium site.
Or did the Tottenham Hotspurs just get too hot>
