Would you like to comment on the London riots on Saturday, 8/6/11
Aug 10th, 2011, 04:54 AM
#221
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 19,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<< "the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon"
You couldn't make it up. >>
Actualy you can - she is a he and is a teaching assistant - or should that be WAS a teaching assistant.
But it puts a rather big hole into the "feckless feral youth" theory put forward by many.
My theory is simple - most will turn out to have a clean record and got involved in the heat of the moment - just like a drunk doing something stupid. They're still guilty though
You couldn't make it up. >>
Actualy you can - she is a he and is a teaching assistant - or should that be WAS a teaching assistant.
But it puts a rather big hole into the "feckless feral youth" theory put forward by many.
My theory is simple - most will turn out to have a clean record and got involved in the heat of the moment - just like a drunk doing something stupid. They're still guilty though
Aug 10th, 2011, 06:09 AM
#225
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 23,442
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it really can be summed up in one short sentence: This is what happens when a country breaks the social contract, mindless violence on all sides ...
Seems that some want their "fair share" of the trillions that was looted from the underclasses without so much as a blink of the eye. You just don't give up the just certain rules of law when some are ignored. If some, the elite, the banksters and others can say, "I don't care what the rules are, I'm taking" and are not held accountable, why then cannot others say the same?
Continue to ignore the social problems and they will rise up and bite you right where it hurts. The mindlessness is that it hurts them even worse because they are burning and looting their own neighborhoods, neighbors and themselves while the others came out ahead.
Seems that some want their "fair share" of the trillions that was looted from the underclasses without so much as a blink of the eye. You just don't give up the just certain rules of law when some are ignored. If some, the elite, the banksters and others can say, "I don't care what the rules are, I'm taking" and are not held accountable, why then cannot others say the same?
Continue to ignore the social problems and they will rise up and bite you right where it hurts. The mindlessness is that it hurts them even worse because they are burning and looting their own neighborhoods, neighbors and themselves while the others came out ahead.
Aug 10th, 2011, 06:25 AM
#226
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cowboy1968
I don't dispute anything you say about the banksters. The 'take what you can get' attitude is well ensconced in high places.
But the clear implication of your post is that these people who are rioting are somehow distinct from their victims, wh by and large were also harmed by the failure to impose justice on the banksters.
It is often alleged that the poor and/or the youth have nothing to lose. I disagree: they have a lot to lose from social disorder, far more than the banksters who as you have pointed out have such immense power, that they can arrange things to their liking, including private police forces and security services. The poor can lose far more than the program spending cuts you have already indicated. They can lose their own neighbourhoods, indeed they are going to wake up in a few days and find that there is no longer even the diversion of looking in a shop window or going to the pub - because they have destroyed both. They can lose their collective sense of safety (it is fun to riot when one can assume one's targets won't fight back: a lot less fun should this rioting wind sow a whirlwind. )
The notion that there is nothing to lose implies that barbarism is preferable to civilisation when the latter doesn't give one what one wants or even all that one needs. I doubt proponents of such an idea appreciate what real barbarism, as it was known in centuries past just about everywhere, and which is alive and well in Mogadishu today, is like. Forget arguments about how affordable, or not, is a Blackberry: Blackberry, the Internet, these are not civilisation itself, but they are the results of civilisation. The average person cannot forage in the woods for the batteries needed to power such devices, much less can he/she create the technology of the iPhone or Blackberry itself. The confidence, the belief in laws, the philosophies that make creation and maintenance of such things as Internet and Twitter possible, are the very things under attack when events such as these riots happen. You can't expect to beat at the threshold of civilisation, and still expect the results of it to be there EITHER in the morning for you to buy, or at night for you to steal.
But I agree wholeheartedly that shooting out kneecaps, etc., would be a disastrous move. So far there has been much loss of property (and this is not so trivial) but at the same time, no loss of life a la what is going on in Libya. Hope, like civilisation, is fragile, and this is shot out along with kneecaps, should things get to such a stage.
I don't dispute anything you say about the banksters. The 'take what you can get' attitude is well ensconced in high places.
But the clear implication of your post is that these people who are rioting are somehow distinct from their victims, wh by and large were also harmed by the failure to impose justice on the banksters.
It is often alleged that the poor and/or the youth have nothing to lose. I disagree: they have a lot to lose from social disorder, far more than the banksters who as you have pointed out have such immense power, that they can arrange things to their liking, including private police forces and security services. The poor can lose far more than the program spending cuts you have already indicated. They can lose their own neighbourhoods, indeed they are going to wake up in a few days and find that there is no longer even the diversion of looking in a shop window or going to the pub - because they have destroyed both. They can lose their collective sense of safety (it is fun to riot when one can assume one's targets won't fight back: a lot less fun should this rioting wind sow a whirlwind. )
The notion that there is nothing to lose implies that barbarism is preferable to civilisation when the latter doesn't give one what one wants or even all that one needs. I doubt proponents of such an idea appreciate what real barbarism, as it was known in centuries past just about everywhere, and which is alive and well in Mogadishu today, is like. Forget arguments about how affordable, or not, is a Blackberry: Blackberry, the Internet, these are not civilisation itself, but they are the results of civilisation. The average person cannot forage in the woods for the batteries needed to power such devices, much less can he/she create the technology of the iPhone or Blackberry itself. The confidence, the belief in laws, the philosophies that make creation and maintenance of such things as Internet and Twitter possible, are the very things under attack when events such as these riots happen. You can't expect to beat at the threshold of civilisation, and still expect the results of it to be there EITHER in the morning for you to buy, or at night for you to steal.
But I agree wholeheartedly that shooting out kneecaps, etc., would be a disastrous move. So far there has been much loss of property (and this is not so trivial) but at the same time, no loss of life a la what is going on in Libya. Hope, like civilisation, is fragile, and this is shot out along with kneecaps, should things get to such a stage.
Aug 10th, 2011, 06:26 AM
#227
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting analysis, I am sure that is part of it! I have always thought the society here was a bit broken, but then thought maybe its just more noticeable because there are more people.
But why here? The US also bailed out their banks and had similar increases in unemployment and will have to cut things. Why here and why now?
Part of me things this is just a bunch of morons taking advantage of a situation to loot and get free stuff. Some of these kids - under 16 - wont understand the economic issues enough to organize a mass looting surely. I can see how some of the older youth might, but it isnt the whole answer.
I always thought it was interesting that Britain spreads out the underpriveleged throughout all boroughs, rather than the N. American way of having ghettos or slums. Perhaps thats what made this so scattered throughout the city - it wasnt contained in a certain area, but in every borough the disenchanted coming out and showing their anger. Perhaps it started out like that and then others joined in when they saw that police werent able to stop it?
Whatever the cause - a big thank you to all those police officers out there doing a tough job, CW and everyone else. It is very appreciated and we know how tough your job is.
But why here? The US also bailed out their banks and had similar increases in unemployment and will have to cut things. Why here and why now?
Part of me things this is just a bunch of morons taking advantage of a situation to loot and get free stuff. Some of these kids - under 16 - wont understand the economic issues enough to organize a mass looting surely. I can see how some of the older youth might, but it isnt the whole answer.
I always thought it was interesting that Britain spreads out the underpriveleged throughout all boroughs, rather than the N. American way of having ghettos or slums. Perhaps thats what made this so scattered throughout the city - it wasnt contained in a certain area, but in every borough the disenchanted coming out and showing their anger. Perhaps it started out like that and then others joined in when they saw that police werent able to stop it?
Whatever the cause - a big thank you to all those police officers out there doing a tough job, CW and everyone else. It is very appreciated and we know how tough your job is.
Aug 10th, 2011, 06:53 AM
#228
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 19,881
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The 'take what you can get' attitude is well ensconced in high places."
Indeed - just look at the current PM who was happy to take nearly £2000 per month from the taxpayer to pay for his mortgage and who in his youth committed similar crimes to the rioters - and his friend Boris (the mayor of London) has admitted to arson. But these people were not prosecuted because their victims were bribed to keep quiet.
How can you have respect when the top two politicians in the country should have been jailed for serious crimes.
Indeed - just look at the current PM who was happy to take nearly £2000 per month from the taxpayer to pay for his mortgage and who in his youth committed similar crimes to the rioters - and his friend Boris (the mayor of London) has admitted to arson. But these people were not prosecuted because their victims were bribed to keep quiet.
How can you have respect when the top two politicians in the country should have been jailed for serious crimes.
Aug 10th, 2011, 07:22 AM
#230
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And now for a bit of levity:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...-201108104177/
www.photoshoplooter.tumblr.com
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...-201108104177/
www.photoshoplooter.tumblr.com
Aug 10th, 2011, 07:23 AM
#231
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 78,320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PQ; utter drivel>
Well Janis before you call what I said - that there was also a sociological component to the violence - like youth unemployment and disenfranchisement that could have cause the outbreak to spread so much
please dear read this article in today's NYTimes: London Riots Put the Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths in Britain"
and you will see that I am not alone in saying there are endemic underlying causes to these riots - folks like you who only see Britain from the upper crust levels of fancy restaurant, chauffered driven cars and fancy hotels just miss out on what the lower class in MO a still very class-driven society - what their lives are all about - and it ain't taking High Tea in some snooty tea room either.
I always stay in East London - right in the bowels of the working class areas and see aimless youth - can't get a job, laying around all day.
So janis before saying that my take on these sociological facotrs being a cause - retorting to me that my comments are 'utter drivel' read this article and others that support what my take is - and it is not utter drivel and if British authorities think the same as you then they will be doomed to have many repititions of recent events. Get out of your Ivory Tower and see more of the lower class life IMO.
Well Janis before you call what I said - that there was also a sociological component to the violence - like youth unemployment and disenfranchisement that could have cause the outbreak to spread so much
please dear read this article in today's NYTimes: London Riots Put the Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths in Britain"
and you will see that I am not alone in saying there are endemic underlying causes to these riots - folks like you who only see Britain from the upper crust levels of fancy restaurant, chauffered driven cars and fancy hotels just miss out on what the lower class in MO a still very class-driven society - what their lives are all about - and it ain't taking High Tea in some snooty tea room either.
I always stay in East London - right in the bowels of the working class areas and see aimless youth - can't get a job, laying around all day.
So janis before saying that my take on these sociological facotrs being a cause - retorting to me that my comments are 'utter drivel' read this article and others that support what my take is - and it is not utter drivel and if British authorities think the same as you then they will be doomed to have many repititions of recent events. Get out of your Ivory Tower and see more of the lower class life IMO.
Aug 10th, 2011, 07:25 AM
#233
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another one that gave me a chuckle (and I am in no way taking away from what happened - just thought this was cute):
Looting in Cornwall gone Wild:
http://i.imgur.com/C5XQm.gif
Looting in Cornwall gone Wild:
http://i.imgur.com/C5XQm.gif
Aug 10th, 2011, 07:27 AM
#234
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 78,320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Janis - here is the link for NYTimes article referenced above and which IMO you should read to get a better understanding out the current troubles and their underlying causes... enjoy!
ews for London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled ...London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths in Britain
New York Times - 15 hours ago
Widespread antisocial and criminal behavior by young and usually unemployed people has long troubled Britain. Attacks and vandalism by gangs of young people ...14 related articles
►London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/wo...0youth.htmlAdd to iGoogle
London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths in Britain. By LANDON THOMAS Jr. and RAVI SOMAIYA. Published: August 9, 2011 ...
ews for London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled ...London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths in Britain
New York Times - 15 hours ago
Widespread antisocial and criminal behavior by young and usually unemployed people has long troubled Britain. Attacks and vandalism by gangs of young people ...14 related articles
►London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/wo...0youth.htmlAdd to iGoogle
London Riots Put Spotlight on Troubled, Unemployed Youths in Britain. By LANDON THOMAS Jr. and RAVI SOMAIYA. Published: August 9, 2011 ...
Aug 10th, 2011, 07:31 AM
#236
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
