NeoPatrick

By the way. Those of you complaining about the practice, if you went to a restaurant which of the following would you prefer?

A) A $200 final bill with good service and an "expected" extra tip of $40 for a total of $240?

B) Raised prices and a notation on the menu that tipping is not done -- and final bill for the same meal as above of $240?

C) A final bill of $200 with an automatic service charge added of $40 for a total bill of $240?

Which makes you feel more comfortable?
Frankly I am happiest with the first one, where I can make my final bill a little less if service was off, or a little more if a server made my evening special. The bottom line is I don't see any difference in the final price or the outcome. I think some of you are really suggesting they should take away the tips and not add a service charge or raise the prices at all. How is that possible?

Jake1

I'm not sure what a living wage is considered in most of Europe, but the waiters I know in Europe (mostly Germany and France) make between $15-20,000 a year. That is dollars, not Euros. These are people working in regular restaurants, cafes, etc., not fast food places or high-end restaurants. Unless there has been a vast increase in salaries in the past year, this does not seem to be a whole late more than the earnings of typical waiters in American establishments when tips are included.

kerouac

I'd like to know if anybody thinks that a waiter deserves to earn $100 an hour and why?

ira

>I'd like to know if anybody thinks that a waiter deserves to earn $100 an hour and why?<

Deserves? Has this become a question of ethics and metaphysics?

What does (fill in name) do to justify the outrageous compensation of (fill in amount)?

Michael

NeoPatrick,

I would take option C, assuming that it actually goes to the staff, which may or may not include the backroom staff.

BTW, the Herbfarm is only (!) $250 per person.

Christina

I would like it done away with also, although some people could still tip if they wanted, as they do in Europe. As for Patricks test, B and C are basically equivalent to me, and I would not want either one of them as that is a 20 pct tip, and I don't believe in that. A 20 pct service charge doesn't occur anywhere in Europe, that I know. However, if it were 15 pct, I would much prefer either B or C to A.

Lots of people don't get paid a living wage in the US, like clerks at the 7-11. I am for the idea that every job should adhere to the minimum wage. It is done in some states, as that is a statewide law. There are states where servers cannot be paid below the min. wage -- California is one of them, I believe.

Lots of waiters in the US do pretty well, even when they aren't that professional and very young. I have a friend in Santa Fe, NM, for example, who told me a waiter job in a moderate restaurant there (not top) is a pretty good gig for young people.

tipping sort of goes along with part of the whole American gestalt, I think -- being an entrepreneur, not caring about societal issues or collectivity, just caring about yourself, etc.

kenderina

I choose B. I prefer to think I'm paying for the food which is what leads me to a restaurant in the first place.

flanneruk

I'm not sure I'd be in favour of US restaurants moving to our system.

A year or so ago I had an excellent meal at Chez Panisse, served by a number of different waitstaff. The bill included 17% service charge - a tad stiffer than I'm used to, but since the food was at least twice as good and about half the price of its closest UK equivalent (Oxford's consistently just about OK Lemon Tree) I wasn't about to complain.

But should I tip as well? A nominal couple of dollars, as I might in Spain? Was I sure everything was going to everyone? Was there some special etiquette for the sommelier? Should I round up to the nearest whole number?

Nowhere in my copy of Emily Post - without which I never move an inch in America - is there any advice on the subject. So I spent the whole meal wracked with worry - unable to concentrate on the wonders laid out before me.

Stay with your current system. It gives us something else to feel morally superior about, and we know where we are.

NeoPatrick

You know, my copy of Emily Post doesn't give a clue about what to do in London either, when more and more restaurants are adding a set service charge (usually listed as discretionary, but already charged when they return with a credit card). If the service was wonderful should we add more?

Nor does Emily say anything to cover the incident we had in Venice with a 15 % service charge clearly added and the "captain" boldly saying "that goes to the restaurant and is not a tip which is normally 15%. Will you be doing that in cash or on your credit card?" 30% total??? I think Europe is adopting the US custom, not the other way around.

logos999

Tip not expected at breakfast (Germany/ Austria).
Service charge does not equal tip.
Thanks.

nytraveler

In the US the minimum wage is not a living wage. (The counter kids at Mickey D's earn almost twice the minimum wage in my area.)

Also there is a federal minimum wage and then each state has a separate minimum wage - which vary widely. (If a business is purely local they can use the state minimum - if involved in interstate commerce they must pay the federal - which is lower than many state minimums.)

And - the way the laws are written many jobs are not subject to minimum wage. But - the key point is that even the minimum wage isn;t enough to live on - so without tips - no one would take these service jobs.

(The supermarkets and fast food places in my area are constantly looking for help- never mind competent help -since no one is wiling to work for so little.)

kleeblatt

Tipping in Europe:

When I go travelling with my girlfriend, she tips way more than I do and expects me to tip the same.

When I go travelling with my husband, I have to make sure he doesn't tip too little.

Although tipping is not required, it's an act of graciousness. Not tipping at all makes the customer look like a cheapskate.

likeswords

NeoPatrick, you've summed it up nicely. Among your choices, I would prefer either B or C, but my real preference would be for the employer (that is, the restaurant, not me) to do the work of determining what it costs to maintain an establishment whose purpose it is to provide and serve food, then charge whatever that costs per meal. I just don't wanna do the work. All I want is the meal - let the establishment figure out how to charge to make a decent profit and recompense their employees. Just give me a bottom line, with the costs for serving and everything else factored into the price charged for the meal.

travel_buzzing

""Huh? What part don't you agree with? Do you believe most waiters would happily continue to work if their income was cut by up to 90%? Or do you believe that good waiters only make $6 or so an hour now? Or have you only ever eaten in fast food restaurants?
I trust then, you don't care at all about a truly professional wait job in a restaurant. You'd be happy with a typical MacDonald's worker in a $200 for two fine restaurant? Good restaurants have a very difficult time now getting GOOD servers even at those "wages". You are truly naive, thinking they could be replaced with minimum wage workers!!!
It is funny how so many people think "anybody" can wait tables and do a good job of it. I suspect these are the same people who complain the most about their service. ""

Neopatrick- Barking up the wrong tree.
There has been a pretty heated thread on this debate already.
Sorry but no I wouldnt eat in macdonalds.
After bartending in New York city and european cities for 6 years, my reasoning comes from the fact that i would rather earn a living wage than depend on customers for tips, even if they worked out a fair bit more. BTW there've been occasions of earning 130$ per hour.
My (knowledgable) opinion of waitstaff, bartending and this industry is that service is better and more professional when the staff are not motivated by tips.
I didnt say minimal wage i said living wage. And i'd prefer it to relying on my clientele to literally pay me. its not dependable. there are americans who just dont tip and it drives waitstaff crazy. problem needs to be addressed at the top.

you are truly naive thinking that people only care about money. a true professional takes pride in his job and not his salary.