Schengen violator has questions
May 18th, 2009, 06:27 AM
#61
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Am I right that the UK is not part of the Schengen, and if you make an overnight trip in the middle of a longer European stay to the UK, then your "time limit" in the Schengen starts all over again?
May 18th, 2009, 06:57 AM
#64
No Neo. You can spend 180 days in the UK because they are not Schengen. Your time limit for Schengen is 90 days in a 180 day time period. Going to another non-Schengen country does not restart it. If you have been in a Schengen country for 90 days then you have to wait until day 181 to return.
May 18th, 2009, 09:33 AM
#65
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It used to be that one could go outside Schengen to "reset" the 90 day visa waiver. That's no longer the case (as has been reiterated on this forum for a million times!!!).
It's 90 days within a total of 180 days. Spend 90 days in Schengen, you must wait another 90 days before coming back in.
For those of us who are non-EU who have traveled to Europe multiple times, this is like beating a dead horse.
>> One last question-- several people suggested that I should have gotten a visa. Since US citizens don't need a visa (and since the Schengen visa carries the same 90-out-of-180 restriction anyway), what visa would that be? If I weren't hoping to be in any country for more than 6 weeks, and in most of them for far less time?
Colonna, this is a question that you have to ask the consulate. They will ask you for your purpose of stay and you'd have to explain why you want to stay beyond the 90-day visa waiver period. Then they will advise you on the type of visa you would need for the extended period of stay in Schengen. Note that you cannot just say, "because I love Europe and I want an extended holiday." Like Cathinjoetown says, they will ask you to produce proof of financial support (you must bring copies of your bank statements proving you have XXX USD in the bank), full health insurance coverage for all of the countries you will be traveling to (including repatriation coverage), proof of your place of residence (your apartment address, lease contract proving that you have a place to stay), official passport-sized photos, and various other documents (if it's an application for a student Schengen visa then you'd need an official letter from the school saying you have been admitted and enrolled full time). Also, all letters will likely be required to be translated into the native language of the country. Some countries require the translated pages to be officially notarized and must be within X days of travel. And finally, you must pay for the visa application regardless of whether or not they approve your application. Also, check if the consulate requires payment in cash. If you don't have sufficient cash with you to pay for the fee, you might have to come back another day and start the queue all over again. This may vary from consulate to consulate and you must know which one to go to apply -- depending on what your point of initial entry to Schengen is, and which country you'll be spending most of your time in.
The Schengen visa application process is not something to be looked upon lightly. Don't expect to get your visa on your first visit. It's likely that there is some paperwork you have missing and they'll send you back to get it sorted out. And don't expect the people at the consulate to be friendly and helpful, because they have to deal with paperwork like this every single day.
I got my Schengen visa for France a few years back after three visits to the French consulate. I had all my paperwork filled out, bank statements, etc., and yet there was always something that they found that was insufficient. It's just bureaucracy and something that you'd have to get used to IF you want a visa.
If you aren't planning to work in the Schengen zone, it's probably better for you just visit for 90 days and not bother with getting a visa. Do NOT go over this waiver period and you'll be fine. Regardless of what you hear about overstaying a visa waiver period being no big deal, or that the law is confusing and not really enforced or not well-announced, or the notion that Americans don't really have to follow the rules, or that the customs officials sometimes don't check, or they don't stamp your passport...all of this nonsense...it doesn't give you an excuse to not protect yourself or be naive about it.
But I'm sure you're not naive since you're here on this forum asking questions!
Remember, it's a privilege (not a right) for US passport holders to be able to stay in the Schengen zone for 90/180 without a visa. We are visitors and need to respect their laws just as they do when they enter the U.S. Be informed, ask questions, and understand what laws cover (or don't cover) you as an American abroad.
Know...before you go...no surprises.
It's 90 days within a total of 180 days. Spend 90 days in Schengen, you must wait another 90 days before coming back in.
For those of us who are non-EU who have traveled to Europe multiple times, this is like beating a dead horse.
>> One last question-- several people suggested that I should have gotten a visa. Since US citizens don't need a visa (and since the Schengen visa carries the same 90-out-of-180 restriction anyway), what visa would that be? If I weren't hoping to be in any country for more than 6 weeks, and in most of them for far less time?
Colonna, this is a question that you have to ask the consulate. They will ask you for your purpose of stay and you'd have to explain why you want to stay beyond the 90-day visa waiver period. Then they will advise you on the type of visa you would need for the extended period of stay in Schengen. Note that you cannot just say, "because I love Europe and I want an extended holiday." Like Cathinjoetown says, they will ask you to produce proof of financial support (you must bring copies of your bank statements proving you have XXX USD in the bank), full health insurance coverage for all of the countries you will be traveling to (including repatriation coverage), proof of your place of residence (your apartment address, lease contract proving that you have a place to stay), official passport-sized photos, and various other documents (if it's an application for a student Schengen visa then you'd need an official letter from the school saying you have been admitted and enrolled full time). Also, all letters will likely be required to be translated into the native language of the country. Some countries require the translated pages to be officially notarized and must be within X days of travel. And finally, you must pay for the visa application regardless of whether or not they approve your application. Also, check if the consulate requires payment in cash. If you don't have sufficient cash with you to pay for the fee, you might have to come back another day and start the queue all over again. This may vary from consulate to consulate and you must know which one to go to apply -- depending on what your point of initial entry to Schengen is, and which country you'll be spending most of your time in.
The Schengen visa application process is not something to be looked upon lightly. Don't expect to get your visa on your first visit. It's likely that there is some paperwork you have missing and they'll send you back to get it sorted out. And don't expect the people at the consulate to be friendly and helpful, because they have to deal with paperwork like this every single day.
I got my Schengen visa for France a few years back after three visits to the French consulate. I had all my paperwork filled out, bank statements, etc., and yet there was always something that they found that was insufficient. It's just bureaucracy and something that you'd have to get used to IF you want a visa.
If you aren't planning to work in the Schengen zone, it's probably better for you just visit for 90 days and not bother with getting a visa. Do NOT go over this waiver period and you'll be fine. Regardless of what you hear about overstaying a visa waiver period being no big deal, or that the law is confusing and not really enforced or not well-announced, or the notion that Americans don't really have to follow the rules, or that the customs officials sometimes don't check, or they don't stamp your passport...all of this nonsense...it doesn't give you an excuse to not protect yourself or be naive about it.
But I'm sure you're not naive since you're here on this forum asking questions!
Remember, it's a privilege (not a right) for US passport holders to be able to stay in the Schengen zone for 90/180 without a visa. We are visitors and need to respect their laws just as they do when they enter the U.S. Be informed, ask questions, and understand what laws cover (or don't cover) you as an American abroad.
Know...before you go...no surprises.
May 18th, 2009, 12:51 PM
#66
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I'm surprised that the OP didn't check for the simple reason that there are countries (for instance, Russia) where Americans, yes, even Americans, need a visa to enter. And it has to be obtained in advance and is a PIA.
Once cannot simply gallop around the globe and assume you can enter eny country freely, with no restrictions. The US has plenty of restrictions on entry of foreign nationals - why be surprised that other countries do too?
Once cannot simply gallop around the globe and assume you can enter eny country freely, with no restrictions. The US has plenty of restrictions on entry of foreign nationals - why be surprised that other countries do too?
May 18th, 2009, 01:59 PM
#67
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Scanning passport does not record your entry or exit into the Schengen area in a way that is accessible to all Schengen external border points like airports, land border and sea ports, i.e. into Schengen Information System (SIS). All that SIS does is to flag up alerts entered by member states about those individuals who have been denied entry into Schengen or deported from it, and fugitives on the run. It also has record of stolen or lost passports and national IDs, so when such a document is used it will be immediately detected. Plus stolen properties (e.g. valuable art). It is possible that a Schengen state may record entry and exit of non-EU travellers within its territory, but such record is incomplete as they may have entered or left the country through another Schengen state (there is no routine passport checks within Schengen) and such national record isn't shared.
So to answer adeben's and OP's concerns, Schengen Information System doesn't keep a record of entry and exit of non-EU travellers, but individual country may, and if, for example, there is a record of your entry into Greece 4 months ago as you try to leave Greece, you may have to explain how you've only stayed in Schengen for 3 months - such as travel tickets and hotel receipts to show you have spent a month outside the area, like UK, Ireland, certain countries in E Europe and N Africa. The Schengen Border Manual lays down that it's up to the travellers to demonstrate they have not broken the rules, rather than the border officials to prove they have contravened.
So to answer adeben's and OP's concerns, Schengen Information System doesn't keep a record of entry and exit of non-EU travellers, but individual country may, and if, for example, there is a record of your entry into Greece 4 months ago as you try to leave Greece, you may have to explain how you've only stayed in Schengen for 3 months - such as travel tickets and hotel receipts to show you have spent a month outside the area, like UK, Ireland, certain countries in E Europe and N Africa. The Schengen Border Manual lays down that it's up to the travellers to demonstrate they have not broken the rules, rather than the border officials to prove they have contravened.
May 18th, 2009, 02:38 PM
#68
alec - from the first post it looks like the OP entered Schengen in France and left from Greece, and it's obvious from that post that the immigration official in Greece was seeing something wrong.
May 18th, 2009, 02:42 PM
#69
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WHen I was kid I lied to get into foreign countries about how much money I had, where I was going, whether or not I was going to work, etc. It was a very long time ago, but I'm sorry that the world has gotten more restrictive in this regard for traveling Americans -- and that well-heeled tourists have become so nyah-nyah about kids winging it on a dime, trying have adventures and see the world.
So there.
So there.
May 18th, 2009, 03:53 PM
#71
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thursdaysd
Maybe from airline ticket or reservation record, even an entry stamp from France (passports are still sometimes stamped) but not from Schengen Information System. The sort of record kept on SIS is strictly regulated by EU and doesn't contain entry and exit details of every non-EU traveller. Such a system would be far too complex and costly to maintain with Schengen now covering greater part of Europe.
Maybe from airline ticket or reservation record, even an entry stamp from France (passports are still sometimes stamped) but not from Schengen Information System. The sort of record kept on SIS is strictly regulated by EU and doesn't contain entry and exit details of every non-EU traveller. Such a system would be far too complex and costly to maintain with Schengen now covering greater part of Europe.
May 18th, 2009, 04:50 PM
#72
Alec - so you're suggesting that when the French border agents scan in passport data, it's only available to the French? That's not at all my reading of the purpose of the Schengen Information System, nor of the central system that the national systems connect to.
And how do you account for: "the exit control man scanned my passport repeatedly, asked me when I'd arrived in a "member country,"..."
And how do you account for: "the exit control man scanned my passport repeatedly, asked me when I'd arrived in a "member country,"..."
May 18th, 2009, 05:32 PM
#73
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On a trip two years ago, I entered Schengen via CDG airport, Paris, and exited two months later at Frankfurt airport. The officer at Frankfurt remarked in passing that I had entered at Paris. My passport was NOT stamped either on entry or exit, but it was scanned on each occasion. From this experience, I assume that the information scanned at Paris was available to immigration official at Frankfurt. Additionally, when my passport was stolen in Nice, France, in 2000, it was replaced at the consulate in Frankfurt the next day, and information about my arrival in Schengen was somehow retrieved and scanned into the replacement passport.
I suspect the Schengen system is a bit more widespread and sophisticated than Alec is suggesting.
I suspect the Schengen system is a bit more widespread and sophisticated than Alec is suggesting.
May 18th, 2009, 06:41 PM
#74
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I don't know how in the cases quoted, your entry record was transmitted to other Schengen states, but this isn't how SIS operates at the moment. France is know to be liberal in sharing its database with other states - other countries seem more restrictive.
European Commission has proposed at the end of 2007 to start implementing entry-exit control at the external borders from 2015, but there are still enormous technical difficulties to overcome. The updated SIS called SIS2 is already overdue, so much so that newer Schengen states including Switzerland had to adopt an interim IT system to comply with Schengen requirements.
You can read about EC proposals at http://www.privacyinternational.org/...Entry_Exit.pdf
European Commission has proposed at the end of 2007 to start implementing entry-exit control at the external borders from 2015, but there are still enormous technical difficulties to overcome. The updated SIS called SIS2 is already overdue, so much so that newer Schengen states including Switzerland had to adopt an interim IT system to comply with Schengen requirements.
You can read about EC proposals at http://www.privacyinternational.org/...Entry_Exit.pdf
May 20th, 2009, 04:00 PM
#76
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Yeah, the OP should have checked the time before s(he) went but give me a break. Overstaying the visa is hardly the Crime of the Century. We have PLENTY of people that overstay their visas here in the USA and unlike what "Traveler 1959" thinks, we are often quite lax with this. Also, "Traveler 1959" seems to be upset and has an arrogant attitude of entitlement when he complains that entrance into the USA is arbitrary. That is true in ANY country which can refuse and send you home for any reason. I'll also add that to the non-americans complaining that they are supposedly treated so poorly, it goes both ways. I've no doubt that on occasion some immigration officers might be rude or unfair but that is equally true in every other country and plenty of americans have gotten poor treatment by some jerk in another country too.
May 20th, 2009, 07:14 PM
#77
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The issue here isn't really the fact that the OP overstayed his/her visa waiver period...it's the fact that s/he had no idea why s/he was stopped by an immigration officer...and clueless when it comes to understanding Schengen zone's restrictions.
Of course it's not the Crime of the Century to overstay the 90-period visa waiver period. BUT...it's pretty ridiculous to hear that the OP traveled to the Schengen zone without even checking if there are any restrictions (despite admitting that s/he has read the many posts on this forum regarding the Schengen visa). Even more amazing is the fact that the OP seemed surprised that s/he was stopped by an immigration officer on the way back to the US.
The OP's remark, "How is a person supposed to know about this rule? Friends who live in Europe had never heard of it, though I guess they would have no reason to." blatantly shows some degree of ignorance.
It's this whole notion of "Americans are exempt from the rules" , "It's no big deal because I have a US Passport" , and "I'm American so how should I know?" that raises eyebrows here on the forum, simply because there are so many seasoned travelers who know better and could offer good advice to the less-informed travelers.
It may seem like some people have an arrogant attitude here, but I don't think it's really true. This thread raised many voices from people who have been a part of Fodor's Forums for a very long time, and that certainly isn't because there is a need to affirm a sense of entitlement or to be arrogant/bash on new travelers. I'd rather see the opinions and advice of the many posters here as enlightening, frank, and helpful.
Of course it's not the Crime of the Century to overstay the 90-period visa waiver period. BUT...it's pretty ridiculous to hear that the OP traveled to the Schengen zone without even checking if there are any restrictions (despite admitting that s/he has read the many posts on this forum regarding the Schengen visa). Even more amazing is the fact that the OP seemed surprised that s/he was stopped by an immigration officer on the way back to the US.
The OP's remark, "How is a person supposed to know about this rule? Friends who live in Europe had never heard of it, though I guess they would have no reason to." blatantly shows some degree of ignorance.
It's this whole notion of "Americans are exempt from the rules" , "It's no big deal because I have a US Passport" , and "I'm American so how should I know?" that raises eyebrows here on the forum, simply because there are so many seasoned travelers who know better and could offer good advice to the less-informed travelers.
It may seem like some people have an arrogant attitude here, but I don't think it's really true. This thread raised many voices from people who have been a part of Fodor's Forums for a very long time, and that certainly isn't because there is a need to affirm a sense of entitlement or to be arrogant/bash on new travelers. I'd rather see the opinions and advice of the many posters here as enlightening, frank, and helpful.
May 20th, 2009, 11:53 PM
#79
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Let me try to explain to the young fellow. ;-) There is a certain difference between a plain insuling comment and a sarcastic remark. The former is just that, insuling and nonsensical, the later has some truth in it, it has a point and is brought in a way some people can relate to,(in very different ways 
) because it refers to someting they feel is part of their behaviour or way of life or part of that of the group they believe they belong to.
You say: "Those no good for noting Brits should keep their stu*pid towels off OUR sunbeds." This does refer to some differences between our friendly neighbours on that fu*ing island and us brave teutonic tribes that know we have a right to those sunbeds, because we paid for them. And even it we didn't threy still belong to us.
I don't think you will understand, but there is still hope.. There's always hope, isn't it.
) because it refers to someting they feel is part of their behaviour or way of life or part of that of the group they believe they belong to.You say: "Those no good for noting Brits should keep their stu*pid towels off OUR sunbeds." This does refer to some differences between our friendly neighbours on that fu*ing island and us brave teutonic tribes that know we have a right to those sunbeds, because we paid for them. And even it we didn't threy still belong to us.
I don't think you will understand, but there is still hope.
. There's always hope, isn't it.
May 21st, 2009, 03:25 PM
#80
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re
OGOs999-"There is a certain difference between a plain insuling comment and a sarcastic remark. The former is just that, insuling and nonsensical, the later has some truth in it"
Wrong, both a plain and a sarcastic comment are insulting and both may or may not be true. Yours are usually typical anti-american drivel as you obviously single americans out constantly. Really, get over you obsession Logos9999, if you hate America, stay away, nobody here cares including me.
OGOs999-"There is a certain difference between a plain insuling comment and a sarcastic remark. The former is just that, insuling and nonsensical, the later has some truth in it"Wrong, both a plain and a sarcastic comment are insulting and both may or may not be true. Yours are usually typical anti-american drivel as you obviously single americans out constantly. Really, get over you obsession Logos9999, if you hate America, stay away, nobody here cares including me.
