Schengen violator has questions
May 17th, 2009, 01:55 PM
#41
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Sheila,
<i>I just don't understand how one can travel abroad without bothering to find out what the visa rules are.</i>
Because for decades Americans had only one visa rule for traveling to Europe - none required. This might have something to do with the tens of thousands of American graves in UK and Europe. The visa rule is still true but is now hampered by the Schengen twist which puts a severe crimp in long stay Americans who know about it and who choose to obey it. A few years ago a Dutch officer at Schiphol told me "you'll never have to worry about it" and so I don't. That won't stand up in your court, but so what.
Otzi was pulling the chain while you were still on the seat.
<i>I just don't understand how one can travel abroad without bothering to find out what the visa rules are.</i>
Because for decades Americans had only one visa rule for traveling to Europe - none required. This might have something to do with the tens of thousands of American graves in UK and Europe. The visa rule is still true but is now hampered by the Schengen twist which puts a severe crimp in long stay Americans who know about it and who choose to obey it. A few years ago a Dutch officer at Schiphol told me "you'll never have to worry about it" and so I don't. That won't stand up in your court, but so what.
Otzi was pulling the chain while you were still on the seat.
May 17th, 2009, 02:09 PM
#42
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>>>is there any legal way for a US citizen to spend more than 90 days just traveling in Schengen <<<
Just apply for a visum.
BTW, for a European, it is almost impossible to spend more than 90 days in the USA (unless you are a millionaire).
What I do not like is the tone in this thread. The European countries who signed the Schengen agreement are extremely generous towards foreign visitors. A visitor from abroad can travel freely within the Schengen zone without a visum and without passport controls. This is unique in the world.
The OP had violated rules. And the officials were generous enough to let him/her go without any junctions. Imagine a European traveller in the USA. Would U.S. officials do that?
The OP as well as other posters from the USA are pretty demanding. They seem to complain about the rules. What they probably do not know:
Any visitor to the USA has to waive all his/her rights. After your transatlantic flight, when you are standing in front of the grim immigration officer, you are subject to official arbitrariness. They can deny entry without reason, and there is no point to complain. In fact, you have to pay for your flight back. It happened to enough people.
Just apply for a visum.
BTW, for a European, it is almost impossible to spend more than 90 days in the USA (unless you are a millionaire).
What I do not like is the tone in this thread. The European countries who signed the Schengen agreement are extremely generous towards foreign visitors. A visitor from abroad can travel freely within the Schengen zone without a visum and without passport controls. This is unique in the world.
The OP had violated rules. And the officials were generous enough to let him/her go without any junctions. Imagine a European traveller in the USA. Would U.S. officials do that?
The OP as well as other posters from the USA are pretty demanding. They seem to complain about the rules. What they probably do not know:
Any visitor to the USA has to waive all his/her rights. After your transatlantic flight, when you are standing in front of the grim immigration officer, you are subject to official arbitrariness. They can deny entry without reason, and there is no point to complain. In fact, you have to pay for your flight back. It happened to enough people.
May 17th, 2009, 02:10 PM
#43
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Oh dear, Colonna, you shouldn't have mentioned that you read the "couch surfing thread". That alone should have let you know you were in for stormy weather, but I'm glad things worked out for you.
Just in case someone wants to revisit Sandy456: http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...en-airport.cfm
Just in case someone wants to revisit Sandy456: http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...en-airport.cfm
May 17th, 2009, 02:22 PM
#44
"They can deny entry without reason" - any country can do that.
E.g. from the Italian embassy website: "As a rule, aliens do not have a "right" to be granted a visa, but at most a "legitimate interest". " and "The possession of a visa does not give an alien automatic right of entry to Italy, because the border authorities may always refuse entry to an alien who is not in possession of adequate means of subsistence or is unable to provide full details regarding the circumstances of the stay in Italy, or for reasons of security or public policy. " (Although the subsistence requirements look pretty low!)
E.g. from the Italian embassy website: "As a rule, aliens do not have a "right" to be granted a visa, but at most a "legitimate interest". " and "The possession of a visa does not give an alien automatic right of entry to Italy, because the border authorities may always refuse entry to an alien who is not in possession of adequate means of subsistence or is unable to provide full details regarding the circumstances of the stay in Italy, or for reasons of security or public policy. " (Although the subsistence requirements look pretty low!)
May 17th, 2009, 02:44 PM
#45
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traveller1959 wrote:
<i>What I do not like is the tone in this thread. The European countries who signed the Schengen agreement are extremely generous towards foreign visitors. A visitor from abroad can travel freely within the Schengen zone without a visum and without passport controls. This is unique in the world.</i>
The European countries who initiated the agreement in Schengen, Luxembourg did it for their own financial interests. To claim altruism for this is absurdism. Bosh to passport controls. Totally irrelevant. Just show the blue book, courtesy of your USA Department of State. Border guards rarely open the blue book, and if they do it is back to you in a half second.
<i>BTW, for a European, it is almost impossible to spend more than 90 days in the USA (unless you are a millionaire).</i>
Relevant? So what?
<i>What I do not like is the tone in this thread. The European countries who signed the Schengen agreement are extremely generous towards foreign visitors. A visitor from abroad can travel freely within the Schengen zone without a visum and without passport controls. This is unique in the world.</i>
The European countries who initiated the agreement in Schengen, Luxembourg did it for their own financial interests. To claim altruism for this is absurdism. Bosh to passport controls. Totally irrelevant. Just show the blue book, courtesy of your USA Department of State. Border guards rarely open the blue book, and if they do it is back to you in a half second.
<i>BTW, for a European, it is almost impossible to spend more than 90 days in the USA (unless you are a millionaire).</i>
Relevant? So what?
May 17th, 2009, 04:24 PM
#46
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Hi Colonna! Here's some info for you to check out the next time you travel to Europe. I found it easily on the US Department of State website (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1765.html). This the the same site that you would check out when renewing your passports and finding information about international travel (know...before you go!).
Hope you'll do your homework the next time! Good luck!
FRANCE
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1116.html
ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: France is party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter France for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. A passport is required and should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. Anyone intending to stay more than 90 days must obtain the appropriate visa issued by one of the French Consulates in the U.S., prior to departure for France. This also applies to anyone considering marriage in France. For further information about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our fact sheet .
A passport is required to enter Monaco. A visa is not required for tourist/business stays up to 90 days in Monaco.
For further information concerning entry requirements for France, travelers may contact the Embassy of France at 4101 Reservoir Road NW, Washington, DC 20007, tel. (202) 944-6000, email: [email protected], or the French Consulates General in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, New York, or San Francisco.
BELGIUM
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1044.html
ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Belgium is a party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter Belgium for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. The passport should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. Sufficient funds and a return airline ticket are required. For further details about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our Schengen fact sheet. For further information concerning entry requirements, contact the Embassy of Belgium at 3330 Garfield Street NW, Washington, DC 20008, telephone (202) 333-6900; or one of the Belgian Consulates General in Atlanta, Los Angeles, or New York. Visit the Embassy of Belgium website for the most current visa information.
ITALY
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1146.html
ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Italy is a party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter Italy for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. The passport should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. For further details about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our Schengen Fact sheet .
For all other purposes, a visa is required and must be obtained from the Italian Embassy or Consulates before entering Italy. For further information concerning visas and entry requirements for Italy, travelers may contact the Embassy of Italy at 3000 Whitehaven Street NW, Washington, DC 20008, via telephone at (20... or online at http://www.ambwashingtondc.esteri.it...ata_washington, or Italian Consulates General in Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, Newark, New Orleans, New York, Philadelphia, or San Francisco, accessible through the Italian Embassy web site.
Americans staying or traveling within Italy for less than three (3) months are considered non-residents. This includes persons on vacation, those taking professional trips, students registered at an authorized school, or persons performing research or independent study.
As of May 2007, under Italian law (http://www.camera.it/parlam/leggi/07068l.htm), all non-residents are required to complete a dichiarazione di presenza (declaration of presence). Tourists arriving from a non-Schengen-country (e.g. the United States) should obtain a stamp in their passport at the airport on the day of arrival. This stamp is considered the equivalent of the declaration of presence. Tourists arriving from a Schengen-country (e.g. France) must request the declaration of presence form from a local police office (commissariato di zona), police headquarters (questura) or their place of stay (e.g hotel, hostel, campgrounds) and submit the form to the police or to their place of stay within eight business days of arrival. It is important that applicants keep a copy of the receipt issued by the Italian authorities. Failure to complete a declaration of presence is punishable by expulsion from Italy. Additional information may be obtained (in Italian only) from the Portale Immigrazione at http://www.portaleimmigrazione.it and the Polizia di Stato at http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/ps/.../soggiorno.htm.
Americans staying in Italy for more than three (3) months are considered residents and must obtain a permesso di soggiorno (permit of stay). This includes Americans who will work or transact business and persons who want to simply live in Italy. An application "kit" for the permesso di soggiorno may be requested from one of 14,000 national post offices (Poste Italiane). The kit must then be returned to one of 5,332 designated Post Office acceptance locations. It is important that applicants keep a copy of the receipt issued by the post office. Additional information may be obtained from an Italian immigration website online at http://www.portaleimmigrazione.it/. Within 20 days of receiving the permit to stay in Italy, Americans must go to the local Vital Statistics Bureau (Anagrafe of the Comune) to apply for residency. It generally takes one to two months to receive the certificate of residence (Certificato di Residenza).
Information about dual nationality or the prevention of international child abduction can be found on our web site. For further information about customs regulations, please read our Customs Information sheet.
GREECE
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1127.html
ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Greece is a party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter Greece for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. The passport should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. For further details about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our Schengen fact sheet. For other entry requirements, travelers should contact the Embassy of Greece at 2221 Massachusetts Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20008, telephone (202) 939-5800, or Greek consulates in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, Tampa, New York, and San Francisco, and Greek embassies and consulates around the world.
Holders of official or diplomatic passports visiting Greece as tourists must obtain visas prior to arrival. Visit the Embassy of Greece web site for the most current visa information
And here is some information that might be useful for anyone who is interested in immigrating or working in Europe:
http://www.workpermit.com/european_u...pean_union.htm
For non-EU nationals wishing to work in the European Union
During 2007 and 2008, the European Union has proposed and begun development of a work permit scheme that would allow citizens from outside of the EU to enter the EU for skilled work. Currently, the possibility of this scheme being approved seems good, but estimates are that it will not be available until at least 2011.
The "Schengen Agreement" (formally known as the Schengen Accord) is a treaty between many European countries that allows exchange of law enforcement data between their agencies via a centralized database. The treaty is not restricted to European Union countries only, so non-EU countries (such as Norway and Iceland) also are part of the zone.
A visitor who qualifies for a Schengen visa may travel throughout all countries that are signatories to the Accord. Switzerland and Cyprus are likely to become signatories in the very near future.
Please Note: Some EU countries - such as the United Kingdom and Ireland - are NOT part of the Schengen Zone, so a Schengen visa will NOT allow entry into those countries! Romania and Bulgaria might qualify within "several years," but these newest EU States are currently struggling to comply with the requirements to qualify for inclusion into the Schengen Zone.
Countries in the Schengen area include: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, and Sweden. In December 2007, the following countries were added: the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia. Visitors to these countries who need a visa should consider a Schengen visa when traveling, especially for business purposes.
Entry into and travel throughout Europe with a Schengen Visa
It is important to note that the (standard) maximum allowable stay in Schengen countries is 90 days for all member countries within any six-month period. This means that, for example, if a business visitor with a Schengen visa enters Germany on 01 April and stays for 30 days (until 30 April), they may only spend up to 60 more days (for a total of 90) in all Schengen countries before 01 October, including re-entry to Germany. In exceptional cases visas can also be issued for periods of one or two years.
Schengen visas should be obtained from the consulate of the member country where a visitor plans entry into the Schengen zone and is likely to spend most of his or her time.
A multiple-entry Schengen visa allows you to enter into the country which issues you the visa, and you may then travel freely throughout all Schengen countries. It is assumed that you will spend most of your time in the country which issued the visa to you, but it is not a requirement. Some countries are much easier to obtain a Schengen from, in practice, although the process is supposed to be standardized.
It is therefore possible, for another example, to obtain a Schengen visa via the Italian or Spanish consluates, enter that country, and then immediately travel to France and spend most of your time there. However, countries which notice this practice may in the future deny a Schengen application to people they feel are a risk of abusing the intent of Schengen visas.
In the example just described, Sweden or Hungary would have the right to deny an application if they wish to, while other countries such as Denmark or the Czech Republic retain the right to grant permission, if they wish. Each signatory to the Schengen Accord may decide to grant or deny an application to a person based upon that individual's historical record of behavior and travel in any other member country. So, it is generally advisable to avoid this practice as much as possible to avoid unnecessary inconvenience.
In December 2007 the Schengen Zone was significantly expanded to include many new EU countries. There are also plans to expand by several more countries in the near future. This news item includes some related Schengen information that will likely be of interest: http://www.workpermit.com/news/2007-...-expansion.htm
(please note that the information above is for reference only -- check with each country's individual consulate for details before travel)
Hope you'll do your homework the next time! Good luck!
FRANCE
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1116.html
ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: France is party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter France for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. A passport is required and should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. Anyone intending to stay more than 90 days must obtain the appropriate visa issued by one of the French Consulates in the U.S., prior to departure for France. This also applies to anyone considering marriage in France. For further information about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our fact sheet .
A passport is required to enter Monaco. A visa is not required for tourist/business stays up to 90 days in Monaco.
For further information concerning entry requirements for France, travelers may contact the Embassy of France at 4101 Reservoir Road NW, Washington, DC 20007, tel. (202) 944-6000, email: [email protected], or the French Consulates General in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, New York, or San Francisco.
BELGIUM
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1044.html
ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Belgium is a party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter Belgium for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. The passport should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. Sufficient funds and a return airline ticket are required. For further details about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our Schengen fact sheet. For further information concerning entry requirements, contact the Embassy of Belgium at 3330 Garfield Street NW, Washington, DC 20008, telephone (202) 333-6900; or one of the Belgian Consulates General in Atlanta, Los Angeles, or New York. Visit the Embassy of Belgium website for the most current visa information.
ITALY
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1146.html
ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Italy is a party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter Italy for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. The passport should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. For further details about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our Schengen Fact sheet .
For all other purposes, a visa is required and must be obtained from the Italian Embassy or Consulates before entering Italy. For further information concerning visas and entry requirements for Italy, travelers may contact the Embassy of Italy at 3000 Whitehaven Street NW, Washington, DC 20008, via telephone at (20... or online at http://www.ambwashingtondc.esteri.it...ata_washington, or Italian Consulates General in Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, Newark, New Orleans, New York, Philadelphia, or San Francisco, accessible through the Italian Embassy web site.
Americans staying or traveling within Italy for less than three (3) months are considered non-residents. This includes persons on vacation, those taking professional trips, students registered at an authorized school, or persons performing research or independent study.
As of May 2007, under Italian law (http://www.camera.it/parlam/leggi/07068l.htm), all non-residents are required to complete a dichiarazione di presenza (declaration of presence). Tourists arriving from a non-Schengen-country (e.g. the United States) should obtain a stamp in their passport at the airport on the day of arrival. This stamp is considered the equivalent of the declaration of presence. Tourists arriving from a Schengen-country (e.g. France) must request the declaration of presence form from a local police office (commissariato di zona), police headquarters (questura) or their place of stay (e.g hotel, hostel, campgrounds) and submit the form to the police or to their place of stay within eight business days of arrival. It is important that applicants keep a copy of the receipt issued by the Italian authorities. Failure to complete a declaration of presence is punishable by expulsion from Italy. Additional information may be obtained (in Italian only) from the Portale Immigrazione at http://www.portaleimmigrazione.it and the Polizia di Stato at http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/ps/.../soggiorno.htm.
Americans staying in Italy for more than three (3) months are considered residents and must obtain a permesso di soggiorno (permit of stay). This includes Americans who will work or transact business and persons who want to simply live in Italy. An application "kit" for the permesso di soggiorno may be requested from one of 14,000 national post offices (Poste Italiane). The kit must then be returned to one of 5,332 designated Post Office acceptance locations. It is important that applicants keep a copy of the receipt issued by the post office. Additional information may be obtained from an Italian immigration website online at http://www.portaleimmigrazione.it/. Within 20 days of receiving the permit to stay in Italy, Americans must go to the local Vital Statistics Bureau (Anagrafe of the Comune) to apply for residency. It generally takes one to two months to receive the certificate of residence (Certificato di Residenza).
Information about dual nationality or the prevention of international child abduction can be found on our web site. For further information about customs regulations, please read our Customs Information sheet.
GREECE
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1127.html
ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Greece is a party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter Greece for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. The passport should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. For further details about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our Schengen fact sheet. For other entry requirements, travelers should contact the Embassy of Greece at 2221 Massachusetts Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20008, telephone (202) 939-5800, or Greek consulates in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, Tampa, New York, and San Francisco, and Greek embassies and consulates around the world.
Holders of official or diplomatic passports visiting Greece as tourists must obtain visas prior to arrival. Visit the Embassy of Greece web site for the most current visa information
And here is some information that might be useful for anyone who is interested in immigrating or working in Europe:
http://www.workpermit.com/european_u...pean_union.htm
For non-EU nationals wishing to work in the European Union
During 2007 and 2008, the European Union has proposed and begun development of a work permit scheme that would allow citizens from outside of the EU to enter the EU for skilled work. Currently, the possibility of this scheme being approved seems good, but estimates are that it will not be available until at least 2011.
The "Schengen Agreement" (formally known as the Schengen Accord) is a treaty between many European countries that allows exchange of law enforcement data between their agencies via a centralized database. The treaty is not restricted to European Union countries only, so non-EU countries (such as Norway and Iceland) also are part of the zone.
A visitor who qualifies for a Schengen visa may travel throughout all countries that are signatories to the Accord. Switzerland and Cyprus are likely to become signatories in the very near future.
Please Note: Some EU countries - such as the United Kingdom and Ireland - are NOT part of the Schengen Zone, so a Schengen visa will NOT allow entry into those countries! Romania and Bulgaria might qualify within "several years," but these newest EU States are currently struggling to comply with the requirements to qualify for inclusion into the Schengen Zone.
Countries in the Schengen area include: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, and Sweden. In December 2007, the following countries were added: the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia. Visitors to these countries who need a visa should consider a Schengen visa when traveling, especially for business purposes.
Entry into and travel throughout Europe with a Schengen Visa
It is important to note that the (standard) maximum allowable stay in Schengen countries is 90 days for all member countries within any six-month period. This means that, for example, if a business visitor with a Schengen visa enters Germany on 01 April and stays for 30 days (until 30 April), they may only spend up to 60 more days (for a total of 90) in all Schengen countries before 01 October, including re-entry to Germany. In exceptional cases visas can also be issued for periods of one or two years.
Schengen visas should be obtained from the consulate of the member country where a visitor plans entry into the Schengen zone and is likely to spend most of his or her time.
A multiple-entry Schengen visa allows you to enter into the country which issues you the visa, and you may then travel freely throughout all Schengen countries. It is assumed that you will spend most of your time in the country which issued the visa to you, but it is not a requirement. Some countries are much easier to obtain a Schengen from, in practice, although the process is supposed to be standardized.
It is therefore possible, for another example, to obtain a Schengen visa via the Italian or Spanish consluates, enter that country, and then immediately travel to France and spend most of your time there. However, countries which notice this practice may in the future deny a Schengen application to people they feel are a risk of abusing the intent of Schengen visas.
In the example just described, Sweden or Hungary would have the right to deny an application if they wish to, while other countries such as Denmark or the Czech Republic retain the right to grant permission, if they wish. Each signatory to the Schengen Accord may decide to grant or deny an application to a person based upon that individual's historical record of behavior and travel in any other member country. So, it is generally advisable to avoid this practice as much as possible to avoid unnecessary inconvenience.
In December 2007 the Schengen Zone was significantly expanded to include many new EU countries. There are also plans to expand by several more countries in the near future. This news item includes some related Schengen information that will likely be of interest: http://www.workpermit.com/news/2007-...-expansion.htm
(please note that the information above is for reference only -- check with each country's individual consulate for details before travel)
May 17th, 2009, 04:56 PM
#47
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If you are going to visit a foreign country it is up to you to find out the appropriate rules. If you're not using a travel agent - al you need to do is ask - here - or on the web sites of any of the countries involved.
And you can;t get a visa or extensions or anything else while you're there. A Schengen tourist (non-visa from the US) entry is limited to 90- days total. Full stop. If you want to visit longer you need to get the appropriate visa (whatever that may be) in the US before you leave.
What you did is the equivalent of an Italian (or whoever) just coming to the US and thinking they could stay as long as they feel like it without getting any sort of approval in advance.
You are VERY lucky you weren't fined and banned from Schengen for years.
And you can;t get a visa or extensions or anything else while you're there. A Schengen tourist (non-visa from the US) entry is limited to 90- days total. Full stop. If you want to visit longer you need to get the appropriate visa (whatever that may be) in the US before you leave.
What you did is the equivalent of an Italian (or whoever) just coming to the US and thinking they could stay as long as they feel like it without getting any sort of approval in advance.
You are VERY lucky you weren't fined and banned from Schengen for years.
May 17th, 2009, 07:13 PM
#49
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nytraveler, I think you are missing the point. Why would you ask randomly about a rule of how long you can stay unless you already knew there was such a rule. If you have read a dozen travel books and none of them even mention it, why would you expect such a rule exists and why would anyone ever think to check on it? Would you also haphazardly ask if there are rules about being able to speak certain words in the native language? Or being able to recite the national anthem of the country you are visiting? Like those things there is no reason you would ask about a rule unless you already knew it was a rule.
If I'm not mistaken (but I may be) when someone from Italy gets a visa to the US they are told about any requirements about how long they may stay. If when going to Europe one is told there is an issue, then sure you'd check it out.
If you went to California would you check to see if there is a rule for how long you can stay there? Perhaps there is such a rule, but why would you ask unless you suspected there was?
If I'm not mistaken (but I may be) when someone from Italy gets a visa to the US they are told about any requirements about how long they may stay. If when going to Europe one is told there is an issue, then sure you'd check it out.
If you went to California would you check to see if there is a rule for how long you can stay there? Perhaps there is such a rule, but why would you ask unless you suspected there was?
May 17th, 2009, 08:28 PM
#50
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NeoPatrick, if this was 10 years ago, I'd agree with you, but times have changed and new rules about biometric passports and demands by governments for more and more personal data before INTERNATIONAL travel have been on the news everywhere.
Anyone who still thinks that in this day and age, when international visitors to the U.S. have ever more hoops to jump through, that it would be all tra la la nothing to worry about for Americans heading overseas for several months is either incredibly naive, clueless or simply asking for trouble.
And to equate visa rules for extended visits with learning national anthems...well that's a nonsense comparison and you know it.
Anyone who still thinks that in this day and age, when international visitors to the U.S. have ever more hoops to jump through, that it would be all tra la la nothing to worry about for Americans heading overseas for several months is either incredibly naive, clueless or simply asking for trouble.
And to equate visa rules for extended visits with learning national anthems...well that's a nonsense comparison and you know it.
May 17th, 2009, 10:07 PM
#51
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>> If you have read a dozen travel books and none of them even mention it, why would you expect such a rule exists and why would anyone ever think to check on it?
I have the DK travel guides and they all mention specifically about the 90/180 visa waiver rule.
>> If you went to California would you check to see if there is a rule for how long you can stay there?
Yes, I would check for rules because I'm not a resident and I realize that laws vary from state to state, and certainly country to country. It may be legal to drink at 19 in Canada but illegal in Michigan. It may be legal to purchase tobacco at 18 in California but illegal to do so in Alabama , Alaska, New Jersey, Utah, and Nassau, Suffolk, and Onondaga counties in New York.
If I cannot explain why I as a US passport holder am exempt from a Schengen visa like other non-EU nationals (for example, Indian or Chinese passport holders), then I'd certainly research carefully and find out why. If I have heard of the word, "Schengen", I'd find out what that means and if it involves me as a traveler. It's just part of being a prepared and responsible traveler. Does this sound fair?
>> Perhaps there is such a rule, but why would you ask unless you suspected there was?
Well the way I think of it is like this: I know that many non-US citizens have to enter the US with a visa, so what specifically makes me exempt from it? I would want to know the exact rules so that I could understand what my status is abroad and what laws protect (or do not protect me) against.
"Know before you go" ... no surprises at the end...
It won't hurt!
I have the DK travel guides and they all mention specifically about the 90/180 visa waiver rule.
>> If you went to California would you check to see if there is a rule for how long you can stay there?
Yes, I would check for rules because I'm not a resident and I realize that laws vary from state to state, and certainly country to country. It may be legal to drink at 19 in Canada but illegal in Michigan. It may be legal to purchase tobacco at 18 in California but illegal to do so in Alabama , Alaska, New Jersey, Utah, and Nassau, Suffolk, and Onondaga counties in New York.
If I cannot explain why I as a US passport holder am exempt from a Schengen visa like other non-EU nationals (for example, Indian or Chinese passport holders), then I'd certainly research carefully and find out why. If I have heard of the word, "Schengen", I'd find out what that means and if it involves me as a traveler. It's just part of being a prepared and responsible traveler. Does this sound fair?
>> Perhaps there is such a rule, but why would you ask unless you suspected there was?
Well the way I think of it is like this: I know that many non-US citizens have to enter the US with a visa, so what specifically makes me exempt from it? I would want to know the exact rules so that I could understand what my status is abroad and what laws protect (or do not protect me) against.
"Know before you go" ... no surprises at the end...
It won't hurt!
May 17th, 2009, 10:37 PM
#52
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<<a slightly outdated guidebook wouldn't have had it, and I didn't see it in the paper.>>
It would have to be a lot more than "slightly outdated." I'm traveling at the moment and don't have my library of travel books at hand, but it's my recollection that every guidebook I've owned that was published after 9/11 dealt with the issue of how long you could stay in a country legally, plus a whole lot of other information about passport control and security issues.
I fail to understand how anyone these days would travel to another country without fully examining the visa requirements in advance. Just knowing what it takes to get OUT of the USA through security would make any sane person wonder what it would take to get either in or out of any other country, I should think. And the assumption that you can just go somewhere in a foreign land and stay as long as you like is, well, really naive.
The OP was very lucky.
It would have to be a lot more than "slightly outdated." I'm traveling at the moment and don't have my library of travel books at hand, but it's my recollection that every guidebook I've owned that was published after 9/11 dealt with the issue of how long you could stay in a country legally, plus a whole lot of other information about passport control and security issues.
I fail to understand how anyone these days would travel to another country without fully examining the visa requirements in advance. Just knowing what it takes to get OUT of the USA through security would make any sane person wonder what it would take to get either in or out of any other country, I should think. And the assumption that you can just go somewhere in a foreign land and stay as long as you like is, well, really naive.
The OP was very lucky.
May 17th, 2009, 11:52 PM
#53
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Visas will be required for US citizens, should the 3 days pre-registration requirement for Europeans from visa waiver countries on the ESTA system be enforced.
It this momnet pre-registration can be at any time, even when the website claims it would need to be 3 days in advance.
At this moment I have to register the address where I intend to stay 3 times, to be able to go to the US without visa.
1.) On the website of the airline or with the agent at check-in.
2) On the ESTA system on the internet
3) On a green piece of cardboard when entering.
If a german would design such a stu*pid system, he would be fired. And you folks complain.
It this momnet pre-registration can be at any time, even when the website claims it would need to be 3 days in advance.
At this moment I have to register the address where I intend to stay 3 times, to be able to go to the US without visa.
1.) On the website of the airline or with the agent at check-in.
2) On the ESTA system on the internet
3) On a green piece of cardboard when entering.
If a german would design such a stu*pid system, he would be fired. And you folks complain.
May 17th, 2009, 11:54 PM
#54
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Putting to one side the 'responsibility' aspect of this case, I doubt whether the poster has been 'lucky', except in avoiding a fine or some other immediate penalty. I assume that the passport was scanned on entry to the Schengen zone, and it was certainly repeatedly scanned on exit. Surely that means that such details are now in the Schengen records, and MIGHT surface next time the poster tries to enter Schengen. What are the possible consequences if a previous overstay is flagged? Does it depend once again on the goodwill of the immigration officer, or is there some set procedure? Anyone know?
May 18th, 2009, 04:56 AM
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Again, thanks to all. I would like to know the answers to adeben's questions above, if there are any answers.
I will write to the State Department and suggest that they revise their country information to reflect Schengen regulations, so that one immediately understands that the 90 days applies to ALL time spent in ALL Schengen countries, not each Schengen country.
One last question-- several people suggested that I should have gotten a visa. Since US citizens don't need a visa (and since the Schengen visa carries the same 90-out-of-180 restriction anyway), what visa would that be? If I weren't hoping to be in any country for more than 6 weeks, and in most of them for far less time?
I will write to the State Department and suggest that they revise their country information to reflect Schengen regulations, so that one immediately understands that the 90 days applies to ALL time spent in ALL Schengen countries, not each Schengen country.
One last question-- several people suggested that I should have gotten a visa. Since US citizens don't need a visa (and since the Schengen visa carries the same 90-out-of-180 restriction anyway), what visa would that be? If I weren't hoping to be in any country for more than 6 weeks, and in most of them for far less time?
May 18th, 2009, 05:22 AM
#57
All this nonsense about not knowing is just that - nonsense. Any US citizen traveling out of the country has the obligation to figure out what they need by a bit of research. Passport? Vaccinations? Visa? It's not rocket science. Even the airline websites tell you it's your responsibility to have everything in order.
>>>>logos999 on May 18, 09 at 09:06 AM
If it's flagged, you'll be banned from returning for the next 5 years. Consider yourself lucky, the fine could have been 1200€<<<<
With passports scanned these days, I'm wondering if the OP isn't already flagged even though the she wasn't fined. I would assume their software would make it pop up that she overstayed next time she attempts to travel, but maybe the system isn't that sophisticated.
>>>>logos999 on May 18, 09 at 09:06 AM
If it's flagged, you'll be banned from returning for the next 5 years. Consider yourself lucky, the fine could have been 1200€<<<<
With passports scanned these days, I'm wondering if the OP isn't already flagged even though the she wasn't fined. I would assume their software would make it pop up that she overstayed next time she attempts to travel, but maybe the system isn't that sophisticated.
May 18th, 2009, 05:32 AM
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kybourbon wrote: "With passports scanned these days, I'm wondering if the OP isn't already flagged even though the she wasn't fined. I would assume their software would make it pop up that she overstayed next time she attempts to travel, but maybe the system isn't that sophisticated."
It's possible, I suppose, but I think it unlikely. In general, European states are a little less obsessed with minor breaches than are US immigration authorities.
It's possible, I suppose, but I think it unlikely. In general, European states are a little less obsessed with minor breaches than are US immigration authorities.
May 18th, 2009, 05:41 AM
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Colonna,
In answer to your last post, if planning the same sort of trip again, you must apply for a visa from any Schengen country you plan to visit--logically, it should be the first country, although I am not sure that is required but never take my anecdotal information as fact, check the official wording.
Using France as an example, you would apply to the nearest consulate to your US residence, stating your plans, duration of stay, etc.
They will advise you what is required, but typically the key requirements will be evidence of ability to support yourself (if retired, US social security statement and/or investment statement, pension statement, for example)and evidence of current full health insurance coverage (the last time I checked a confirmation letter from your insurer was required; a photocopy of an insurance card was not acceptable) along with other documentation. This requires forward planning as it's not an overnight turnaround.
Another option is to begin, end or bookend your trip in non-Schengen countries so that your trip might last 4 or 5 months with the middle three months being in Schengen countries. This is entirely legal and would not require a Schengen visa.
In answer to your last post, if planning the same sort of trip again, you must apply for a visa from any Schengen country you plan to visit--logically, it should be the first country, although I am not sure that is required but never take my anecdotal information as fact, check the official wording.
Using France as an example, you would apply to the nearest consulate to your US residence, stating your plans, duration of stay, etc.
They will advise you what is required, but typically the key requirements will be evidence of ability to support yourself (if retired, US social security statement and/or investment statement, pension statement, for example)and evidence of current full health insurance coverage (the last time I checked a confirmation letter from your insurer was required; a photocopy of an insurance card was not acceptable) along with other documentation. This requires forward planning as it's not an overnight turnaround.
Another option is to begin, end or bookend your trip in non-Schengen countries so that your trip might last 4 or 5 months with the middle three months being in Schengen countries. This is entirely legal and would not require a Schengen visa.
May 18th, 2009, 05:42 AM
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In Germany, if you overstay and they notice it at the airport, they will take your address and send you the paperwork. You can then explain from home why you did it. If you never return, you can ignore whatever fines they impose without problems. I've heard that from next year on fines for overstayers will be "harmonized" inside Schengen. Whatever "harmonized" is supposed to mean.
